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    Tips on house training?

    So, my dog came house trained. Never had a problem in his previous home. Didn't have a problem at the SPCA (I NEVER had to clean up his kennel while he stayed there - I work there p/t FYI). He didn't even have a problem for the first few weeks we had him.

    But then one night he pooped in the room we're trying to rent out. So I cleaned it up and closed the door. I figured it was an accident, and if I just restricted his access to the room, he wouldn't try and do it again. And then a few days/week later, it was in the spare room. So I cleaned it up and restricted access to that room. And then it became the hallway. And once it has been the bedroom, and once the living room, but both of those were while he had tummy problems, so I discounted them.

    Now, he poops inside once every few days. I let him out asap when I wake up at 7, he gets a 10-15 minute pre-work walk at 8 (until he poops, usually). I come home at lunch JUST to walk him. I come home again another 4 hours later, and I let him out right away, and then take him for a long walk later. He gets let out right before bed. He isn't wanting for outside time. So...I can't figure out why he poops inside.

    And then today, I noticed a funky smell upstairs. The SPCA smell, the smell of animals. So I thought I should vacuum the carpet. And I did. And then I noticed a stain on the wall. He had peed on one of the walls! So I just went up to clean it up, and I noticed ELEVEN more spots, some that looked really old. We have poor lighting in the house, and I've never noticed a smell before. So I just spent an hour on my hands and knees with a jumbo bottle of Nature's Miracle, scrubbing the walls in the hallway with a headlamp on. It's almost only the hallway.

    I...don't want to crate him. I can't afford a crate, and he's a big boy, so he'll need a big crate. On warmer days, he just chills in the yard while I'm at work, but on colder days (and in the winter coming...) he's going to need to survive four hours at a time indoors. I don't think that is unreasonable. He rarely goes at night, and if he needs to, he wakes me up. It's just when he's home unsupervised.

    Does he think the hallway is an okay place to go? Or is he just misbehaving because I'm not home? If I caught him do it, I would walk him outside and praise him etc etc, but it's never while I'm home.

    I was thinking of getting a baby gate to the stairs so he can't go upstairs when I'm not home, and I am going to rent a shampooer to get rid of the scent in case that's the problem, but I really don't know how to solve this or what to do. Cats, you rub their noses in it and get mad. Dogs, though. Complex little creatures. I haven't scolded him, but I think he knows it's bad, because the entire time I was cleaning it up tonight, he hid around the corner and looked at me with his ears down. I didn't even say anything to him. I just cleaned, and then went and said hello to him.

    So yeah. You dog people. Help. Because I'm at my wit's end.


    Mostly art.

    #2
    Re: Tips on house training?

    It seems like he might have separation anxiety. Usually crating is what's recommended, but since he's big, you might try setting up a doggy fort for him (like draping a table in a blanket so he's got safe place he can go to) & confining him to a small corner of a room or something. You can get these indoor/outdoor play-pen type set-ups at a hardware store for far less than an actual dog crate.

    My other suggestion would be to get some puppy pads & hopefully he'll use those instead of the floor. If he's marking, it's an extremely hard habit to break. He might have been neutered too late. I've heard people suggest that some dogs start marking indoors because they can see another dog outside through a window, & restricting access to the windows can help. Outta sight, outta mind.
    The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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      #3
      Re: Tips on house training?

      Originally posted by Ophidia View Post
      It seems like he might have separation anxiety. Usually crating is what's recommended, but since he's big, you might try setting up a doggy fort for him (like draping a table in a blanket so he's got safe place he can go to) & confining him to a small corner of a room or something. You can get these indoor/outdoor play-pen type set-ups at a hardware store for far less than an actual dog crate.

      My other suggestion would be to get some puppy pads & hopefully he'll use those instead of the floor. If he's marking, it's an extremely hard habit to break. He might have been neutered too late. I've heard people suggest that some dogs start marking indoors because they can see another dog outside through a window, & restricting access to the windows can help. Outta sight, outta mind.
      I hadn't thought of separation anxiety. He generally is all "oh my god it's you, it's you, IT'S YOU" when I get home, and he seems to need to sit with his face in my face if I let him (which I don't). So...maybe? And he does have a marking problem. He is neutered, but he has to mark everything. I can't even take him into my work for a minute, or the SPCA, or the pet store without him marking. I've been trying to train him on walks not to mark garbage cans, or fences, and I do it by pulling him away the second I see it happen, but...yeah. That takes ages to teach.

      The only window he can see out of is the big living room window, so I don't know if it's that. I was going to buy a baby gate and barricade off the stairwell and the upstairs world to him while I'm not home (giving him a much smaller space to chill in). If that doesn't work, then I will use the baby gate to confine him to the kitchen only. If that doesn't work, maybe I will try one of those play pen things, but he's so tall that I feel like he can probably just walk over top of them.


      Mostly art.

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        #4
        Re: Tips on house training?

        Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
        If that doesn't work, maybe I will try one of those play pen things, but he's so tall that I feel like he can probably just walk over top of them.
        The ones I saw looked to be about 3' tall. They probably make different sizes for different uses, like letting your rabbits play on the lawn vs. letting your kids play on the lawn.

        (We use baby gates all over the house. Chelsie could easily jump over them, but because she knocked one over on herself when she was a puppy, she's terrified of them. I feel mean because I never helped her overcome her fear, but it comes in handy.)
        The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Tips on house training?

          Bear with me, V... some of this will be questions, some if it will be advice. If you can work through it try to answer all the questions best you can. I'll try and keep it as succinct as possible, but you know me lol. You're in a new house, right? This is not the same house we were in when you fostered Tyrian for a bit? I can't remember what age and breed this new dog is so remind of that please. Do you know much about his history aside from knowing him at work? Some more specific questions will pop up as I go through your posts...

          Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
          But then one night he pooped in the room we're trying to rent out. So I cleaned it up and closed the door. I figured it was an accident, and if I just restricted his access to the room, he wouldn't try and do it again. And then a few days/week later, it was in the spare room. So I cleaned it up and restricted access to that room. And then it became the hallway. And once it has been the bedroom, and once the living room, but both of those were while he had tummy problems, so I discounted them.
          To start with, you did all the right things here. I just want to ask what you're cleaning up with? Which Nature's Miracle product? The reason I ask is because not all commercial products are actually any good at removing the underlying smells. They do a good job at cleaning and odor removal by human standards, but not by dog standards. You need a cleanser that is enzyme based. This is REALLY important. Enzymes are what clean up the underlying smells the best. I normally tell my clients to get a particular enzyme based washing powder that we can get here, because it's cheaper than the commercial urine sprays and it works better. What you are cleaning with can make a significant difference.

          Secondly, how many times does he poop a day? And what are you feeding him? They should poop 2-3 times daily if they are being fed twice a day. Stools should be firm, cigar shaped, easily picked up without breaking up and leave a tiny smudge behind. If this is not the case, we need to revisit his diet. Even if you are already giving him a good quality diet, he may need a diet change. Dietary sensitivities can cause frequent stools, soft or hard stools, increased urge to defecate and a lower ability to hold on. Dietary sensitivities are also a lot more common than people realise and are the main cause of defecating in odd places, bad stool quality, eating lots of grass, intermittant vomiting, regular 'upset stomach' episodes, picky eating and flatulence.

          Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
          Now, he poops inside once every few days. I let him out asap when I wake up at 7, he gets a 10-15 minute pre-work walk at 8 (until he poops, usually). I come home at lunch JUST to walk him. I come home again another 4 hours later, and I let him out right away, and then take him for a long walk later. He gets let out right before bed. He isn't wanting for outside time. So...I can't figure out why he poops inside.
          This all sounds like a good schedule. There's nothing here that indicates that he is left indoors for too long, or doesn't get ample opportunity to go out. 4 hours is completely reasonable for a healthy adult dog.

          Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
          And then today, I noticed a funky smell upstairs. The SPCA smell, the smell of animals. So I thought I should vacuum the carpet. And I did. And then I noticed a stain on the wall. He had peed on one of the walls! So I just went up to clean it up, and I noticed ELEVEN more spots, some that looked really old. We have poor lighting in the house, and I've never noticed a smell before. So I just spent an hour on my hands and knees with a jumbo bottle of Nature's Miracle, scrubbing the walls in the hallway with a headlamp on. It's almost only the hallway.
          I'll repeat the stuff about cleaning products here. It's REALLY important and I can not stress it enough. Enzyme based. NO ammonia or bleach products. Try to avoid products with fragrances if possible.

          Was he in the SPCA for long? 4 hours is not too long for him to be indoors at a time, so he should be able to hold it for that long. I'm not inclined to think he has a bladder infection, because you are only finding accidents upstairs and it doesn't sound like he urinates excessively. It's likely that he has decided that upstairs is an appropriate place for him to pee. Possibly because he doesn't spend a lot of time up there, possibly because you don't spend a lot of time up there, possibly because it's away from his main living area and so he sees it as the equivalent of outside. Shelter dogs are trickier sometimes, because even if they WERE toilet trained, living in a shelter for a prolonged period of time will often undo that training. Even when they have access to a large run, get walked daily or whatever, they'll still urinate in their run even if they don't defecate in there.

          Normally I tell people here to go back to basics and make a big fuss of him when you catch him toileting outdoors. Carry some tasty treats around with you, reward him for toileting outdoors and make a big fuss. Make it really motivating and positive. Clean up the accidents with an enzyme based cleaner. Sometimes that's enough to remind them that toileting outside is what gets all the positive attention. You have to continue reinforcing it for several months though... if you slack off early, they'll go back to old habits. Remember, it takes 21 to form a routine, then 21 days further to make it an unconscious habit. Dog's are fairly similar to humans in this respect.

          Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
          I...don't want to crate him. I can't afford a crate, and he's a big boy, so he'll need a big crate. On warmer days, he just chills in the yard while I'm at work, but on colder days (and in the winter coming...) he's going to need to survive four hours at a time indoors. I don't think that is unreasonable. He rarely goes at night, and if he needs to, he wakes me up. It's just when he's home unsupervised.
          Honestly, the US is a bit obsessed with crating dogs, and it's largely unnecessary. The reason people love crating so much is that most dogs wont toilet in their crate, because they dislike sitting in their own waste. So they will hold on a lot longer while crated than they will with the run of the house. But it's actually not kind to keep a dog crated for more than a few hours. When we (vets and behaviourists) talk about crate training and crating, we don't mean teaching them to stay in a crate every day while you go to work for 4-8 hours. We mean teaching them to accept being in a crate, creating a safe haven for them to be comfortable in, so that when you have visitors, when you go camping, or when they have to stay at the vet, they are comfortable staying in a 'safe zone' crate for a few hours. Crating is NOT a long term solution. It's not a toilet training tool. It's a useful tool that is good to teach your dog but then use on an intermittent basis, supervised, for an hour or two at a time.

          I would rather you spent your money on a baby gate than on a crate, because a crate is not going to help you here. Not in a way that is going to teach him anything. LOTS of people default to crating their dogs when they are at work, because they see the short term immediate reward of 'dog didn't poop in house'. But they don't see the fact that the dog hasn't actually learned to be house trained (he's learned to be crate trained), he is then cooped up in a tiny box for 8 hours, has no mental stimulation, and is more likely to develop anxieties around toileting or being left on his own.

          Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
          ... He rarely goes at night, and if he needs to, he wakes me up. It's just when he's home unsupervised.

          Does he think the hallway is an okay place to go? Or is he just misbehaving because I'm not home? If I caught him do it, I would walk him outside and praise him etc etc, but it's never while I'm home.
          This right here tells me that he is house trained. He wakes you up at night to take him outside. When you're home he knows that you'll let him out when he needs to go. What he's decided is that when you're not home to let him outside, he toilets upstairs, because that's the next best place as it's not in his living zone. What you actually want him to learn is that if he can't get outside, he needs to hold on and wait.

          This is not misbehaving. Does very rarely 'misbehave'. People are just not that good at understanding the things they are trying to tell us.

          Yes, he's decided that the hallway is an acceptable 'Plan B'. It's not his go to place to toilet... that's outside. But it's his back up plan if he can't get outside. So how do we fix that? I would block the stairs with a baby gate so that he can't get up there. But you MUST give him an alternative 'Plan B'. At least in the meantime while he figures out that his Plan B actually needs to be to hold it. In this case, it's worth considering using puppy pads to retrain him. Puppy pads would provide him with an acceptable Plan B and act as a bridging plan until you can teach him to just hold on while you're out. You'll need to train him to the puppy pads first though, because they are not some magical device that dogs instantly know what to do with. Usually, you get some liquid drops to put on them... this is an ammonia product that mimics the scent of urine. This scent tells them that this is a good place to pee... someone else has peed here before, so you should too. At first you might need to put them close to the bottom of the stairs, because that's where he'll go when you block the stairs off. He'll need to pee, so he'll go to the stairs to go up them, realise they are blocked, then try to figure out what to do. If there's a puppy pad with a pee drop on it, he's likely to decide to go there. When he's peed on that a few times, move it closer to the external door. Let him pee on it a few times, then move it closer to the door again. What we're doing is giving him an acceptable place to pee, letting him form that connection, then moving it to where we want it to be. In this case we want it to be right by the back door or the door he normally goes out when you take him outside to pee.

          Rewarding him for peeing... most people think that you have to be catching him in the accident and taking him out for the reward to work, but that's not true. Reward him EVERY time he pees outside when you are home. You are taking him for a walk or two every day... reward him for toileting on those walks. What we want to happen is that when he pees out on his walk, he gets a tasty treat and mum makes a big fuss. When he pees at home, nothing happens. Ergo, he decides to pee more often while he's out on his walks so that he'll get more rewards. It doesn't have to be out on a walk though... just out in the yard. If he's out in the yard on his own and you see him toilet, reward him. Toileting outside = reward. Toileting inside = boring.

          The problem with toileting is that the act of toileting itself is a reward. It's a self rewarding behavior, just like digging and chewing the furniture. So when I say that toileting inside is boring, that's not strictly true. He is getting the reward of feeling satisfied that his bladder is empty (and frankly, how many of us DON'T feel relieved when we pee after we've been busting to pee?) So we have to convince him that toileting outside gets him MORE than that relief. In the first week or so reward him every single time he toilets in front of you, then do it every second or third time. Still use voice praise, but only do a treat every second or third time. Intermittent treats are more motivating because you are less likely to take them for granted.

          Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
          I was thinking of getting a baby gate to the stairs so he can't go upstairs when I'm not home, and I am going to rent a shampooer to get rid of the scent in case that's the problem, but I really don't know how to solve this or what to do. Cats, you rub their noses in it and get mad. Dogs, though. Complex little creatures. I haven't scolded him, but I think he knows it's bad, because the entire time I was cleaning it up tonight, he hid around the corner and looked at me with his ears down. I didn't even say anything to him. I just cleaned, and then went and said hello to him.

          So yeah. You dog people. Help. Because I'm at my wit's end.
          Baby gate, good idea. Shampooer... eh. A shampooer will only get rid of the smell YOU can smell, and is unlikely to do much for what HE can smell. You need enzymes for that. Enzymes and maybe a good steam clean.

          Rubbing their noses in it actually isn't the best way to toilet train a cat, but that's beside the point here.

          You're right not to scold him. Scolding doesn't work and only creates further anxiety around toileting. Dogs don't understand scolding unless it happens right when they are doing an action, and even then it's a bit hit and miss as to whether they make the connections that you want them to make. Dogs ARE very good at picking up on our body language though, and they don't like us to be mad. When a dog gives you the 'I'm guilty' look, they are not admitting guilt, they are trying to calm you down. They are picking up on the little body language signals that we do when we're made or frustrated. They're telling you 'I know you're mad, I'll just stay back here out of your way until you calm down', or 'I know you're mad, maybe if I give you the appeasing signals you'll calm down and we can do our normal thing', or 'I know you're mad and it's making me anxious so I'll be anxious now and inadvertently make you even more mad but I don't know how to cope with this situation so I'll be anxious and then even more anxious because you're madder now'. You're right, they are complex little creatures.

          Dogs know your own mind better than you know it. They just don't always know what to do with that information, because while they speak human quite well, we don't speak dog so we don't respond the way they think we should respond. We are unpredictable and a great source of confusion for many dogs.

          Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
          I hadn't thought of separation anxiety. He generally is all "oh my god it's you, it's you, IT'S YOU" when I get home, and he seems to need to sit with his face in my face if I let him (which I don't). So...maybe? And he does have a marking problem. He is neutered, but he has to mark everything. I can't even take him into my work for a minute, or the SPCA, or the pet store without him marking. I've been trying to train him on walks not to mark garbage cans, or fences, and I do it by pulling him away the second I see it happen, but...yeah. That takes ages to teach.
          I don't think this is separation anxiety. He's not doing any of the classic signs of separation anxiety (it's likely that Tyrion had separation anxiety or anxiety of some kind, but I'm not getting that vibe from this dog). Being excited to see you is normal... dogs are social creatures and most of them don't enjoy being on their own much (some terriers do, but most breeds enjoy company) so he's just happy you're home.

          Marking... marking is completely 100% normal. Some dogs do it more than others. Testosterone increases the likelihood of marking, but ALL dogs mark to some extent. Laypeople think it's marking territory, but that's not true. We call it 'pee-mail'. What they are actually doing, is communicating with other dogs in the area. They sniff the pee-mail spot, which tells them who's been past this post since last time. Then they put their own pee down so that the next dog knows that they've been past. It's completely normal.

          It IS possible to retrain it, but it's not strictly necessary. Remember, the whole point of going for a walk (when you're a dog) is mental stimulation. It's getting fresh air, seeing new things, hearing new things, smelling new things, and finding out the local gossip via some good old fashioned pee-mail. Walks are not actually about exercise most of the time... they are about mental stimulation. Personally, I feel a bit of pee-mail is perfectly acceptable. But if it's frustrating then keep doing what you're doing, but remember to reward a proper pee and reward him when he walks beside you. Make the preferred action more motivating than what he was going to do.

          A word on all these treats... a) make sure they don't upset his tummy and b) preferably use part of his daily ration of dog food. Take half a cup of his dinner away and put them in a little pouch for you to carry around with you... then give him 'treats' out of that. That way it wont upset his tummy and he wont get fat because of all these extra treats. Remember... what makes it a treat is that you made a fuss about it and that it came out of your hand. Most dogs wont differentiate between regular old dog kibble and an expensive pack of treats that you bought at the store as long as YOU treat them both the same way. Again, it's all about your body language.

          Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
          The only window he can see out of is the big living room window, so I don't know if it's that. I was going to buy a baby gate and barricade off the stairwell and the upstairs world to him while I'm not home (giving him a much smaller space to chill in). If that doesn't work, then I will use the baby gate to confine him to the kitchen only. If that doesn't work, maybe I will try one of those play pen things, but he's so tall that I feel like he can probably just walk over top of them.
          The only potential downfall of blocking access to upstairs (which is what I recommend you do, at least until you've retrained him) is that if he likes to pee-mail, he'll be MORE likely to pee-mail in a room that he doesn't get access to very often than in one that he is in all the time. This is not normally an issue when there is only one animal in the house and you are not using ammonia based cleaning products, but just keep it in the back of your mind. You may need to have upstairs permanently blocked off, which is not normally an issue for people.

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            #6
            Re: Tips on house training?

            I really disagree about your crating opinion. It's not supposed to be a permanent solution, it's supposed to be a training tool.

            The crate doesn't need to be big, only tall enough to stand up, lay down and turn around. I own one for each of my dogs, though they haven't been used in years because they worked. My biggest dog runs about 80 lbs and he crate was about $60. They are excellent for trying to break these types of habits without using negative reinforcement, which doesn't work anyway. The crate isn't a punishment or an abuse. It's a little den and it works great for both potty issues and separation anxiety.

            My older dog had a lot of anxiety issues and she used to chew on everything in the house. It was awful, I lost like half my shoes and furniture the whole works. We started with the crate, to give her only a tiny place to protect. Then the back hall with a baby gate. Then the kitchen, then the kitchen and living room and so on until she had the run of the house but felt comfortable in it. It was like reverse claustrophobia desensitization training.

            The biggest thing I think the crate does is consistency, because you can't be there when you aren't there. You can't correct or misdirect for lousy behavior.

            With dogs though, I think its good to remember they aren't all the same, just like people aren't all the same. Rae'ya's options might work for you. I tried them first too, because I thought the crate was cruel. But it didn't work and it wasn't getting better and I didn't want to 1) live with a dog destroying my house 2) get rid of her. And it worked and I used it to potty train the 2nd dog and it went SO much better than with the first dog, I'll never do it any other way again.

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              #7
              Re: Tips on house training?

              Originally posted by Rowanwood View Post
              I really disagree about your crating opinion. It's not supposed to be a permanent solution, it's supposed to be a training tool.

              The crate doesn't need to be big, only tall enough to stand up, lay down and turn around. I own one for each of my dogs, though they haven't been used in years because they worked. My biggest dog runs about 80 lbs and he crate was about $60. They are excellent for trying to break these types of habits without using negative reinforcement, which doesn't work anyway. The crate isn't a punishment or an abuse. It's a little den and it works great for both potty issues and separation anxiety.

              My older dog had a lot of anxiety issues and she used to chew on everything in the house. It was awful, I lost like half my shoes and furniture the whole works. We started with the crate, to give her only a tiny place to protect. Then the back hall with a baby gate. Then the kitchen, then the kitchen and living room and so on until she had the run of the house but felt comfortable in it. It was like reverse claustrophobia desensitization training.

              The biggest thing I think the crate does is consistency, because you can't be there when you aren't there. You can't correct or misdirect for lousy behavior.

              With dogs though, I think its good to remember they aren't all the same, just like people aren't all the same. Rae'ya's options might work for you. I tried them first too, because I thought the crate was cruel. But it didn't work and it wasn't getting better and I didn't want to 1) live with a dog destroying my house 2) get rid of her. And it worked and I used it to potty train the 2nd dog and it went SO much better than with the first dog, I'll never do it any other way again.
              It's your prerogative to disagree. But as a trained veterinary professional it's my job to give people the most up to date, low stress handling and training methods. As with any training tool, crates can be used appropriately or inappropriately. And, as with any training tool, just because someone got a result doesn't mean they were using it appropriately, or using it in a low stress manner.

              Some of what you've said here is very valid. Some of it is out of date by the standards I've been trained to. The tricky thing about getting advice outside of an integrated training plan is that if the method isn't fully explained to you, it's very easy to misinterpet and use a method inappropriately. The psychology behind dog training is very complex, and while it's possible to use certain methods to gain the results you want in a relatively short space of time, it's also possible to do it with more sensitivity to the living creature that you are trying to 'correct'.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Tips on house training?

                Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                It's your prerogative to disagree. But as a trained veterinary professional it's my job to give people the most up to date, low stress handling and training methods. As with any training tool, crates can be used appropriately or inappropriately. And, as with any training tool, just because someone got a result doesn't mean they were using it appropriately, or using it in a low stress manner.

                Some of what you've said here is very valid. Some of it is out of date by the standards I've been trained to. The tricky thing about getting advice outside of an integrated training plan is that if the method isn't fully explained to you, it's very easy to misinterpet and use a method inappropriately. The psychology behind dog training is very complex, and while it's possible to use certain methods to gain the results you want in a relatively short space of time, it's also possible to do it with more sensitivity to the living creature that you are trying to 'correct'.
                You make it sound like I was abusing them with your 'sensitivity' statement. I don't think there's any other way to interpret that.

                I find it really sad that there's this idea that there's only one right way to do anything, especially because you are right, there is a lot of subtlety in training dogs or in talking to people. What works in one situation, may not work in another. What shows promise for one person, may be a failure for another.

                In the end, I know a lot of people who's pets are destructive and uncontrollable. I wouldn't live with a human that behaved that way (unless we are talking about a disabled person and that's an entirely different conversation to have) so I don't see why I should put up with it from an animal. I always try the least invasive methods, but frankly some of them require you to quit a job to full time train your pet.

                It's sort of how I feel about de-clawing cats. I think it is cruel, but is it honestly worse than the cat being abandoned or put to sleep and having no home at all? In most cases, no, it's not. So if that's the trade off some people make, maybe I think it's better than the alternative.

                There are people who think its cruel to neuter pets or leash them. There are people who think its cruel to have companion animals at all.

                I just wanted to offer another option, since it seems like the current methods aren't working and I have seen the benefit of the crate method after other training options failed. I have 2 well behaved, well adjusted dogs who only have accidents if they are sick and who can sometimes be home together without people for 9-10 hours a day. They don't destroy things and they don't pee in the house or bite people or behave aggressively. They do tricks and respond to whistle and hand signal commands. I don't have to leash them because they are easily under vocal control but one of them is so large I can't even pick her up. My daughter has been hand feeling them treats since she was old enough to sit up because they are that gentle and well adjusted. One is 8 years old and the other is 9 so these are not temporary, short term results.

                Clearly I didn't train then abusively and without sensitivity or I wouldn't have these results.

                I'm not a professional, in animal health or training and that's true. But my vet's dog doesn't even sit on command. It's healthy because that's their job but the vets I know are not training experts. So if you are, I apologize, but I thought your expertise was animal health not behaviorism. However, whether you make your pay from that or not, doesn't mean that there are no other schools of thought or effective methods that differ.

                Maybe there's room for more than one opinion on the subject.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Tips on house training?

                  Originally posted by Rowanwood View Post
                  Clearly I didn't train then abusively and without sensitivity or I wouldn't have these results.
                  This is not a direct statement about YOUR training methods, but I have to point out your statement here is fundamentally flawed. Cesar Milan gets these sorts of results. He clearly abuses pets (both psychologically and physically). As I said in my previous post, it is possible to get the results you want with methods that are out of date and now considered high-stress, harmful or abusive. That's why people still use these methods, because they work. But that doesn't mean they SHOULD be using them.

                  Originally posted by Rowanwood View Post
                  I'm not a professional, in animal health or training and that's true. But my vet's dog doesn't even sit on command. It's healthy because that's their job but the vets I know are not training experts. So if you are, I apologize, but I thought your expertise was animal health not behaviorism.
                  As a vet tech who has extra training in animal behaviour and works at a clinic that offers behavioural consultations, my training and expertise is in both animal health and behaviour. I approach animal training the same way that the veterinary behaviour industry approaches it... from a mental health point of view. The mental health of my patients is as important to me as their physical health. Hence my focus on the most up to date, low stress training methods.

                  Originally posted by Rowanwood View Post
                  However, whether you make your pay from that or not, doesn't mean that there are no other schools of thought or effective methods that differ.

                  Maybe there's room for more than one opinion on the subject.
                  I already said that there are other 'effective methods that differ'. I also already said that just because a method is 'effective' doesn't mean that it is the kindest, least stress method.

                  People may chose to use whatever method they like, but as I said before, my job is to teach the most up to date, low stress methods. And in that sense I will not compromise. Yes, other techniques exist. Are they the most up to date, low stress methods? No. So I don't teach those.

                  The difference between 'animal training' and 'animal behaviour' is that training often focuses solely on results, usually in the fastest, cheapest, 'easiest' way that can be acheived. Behaviour focuses on the psychology and underlying mental health, which results in methods that are just as effective, but may take more time, effort and compromise. Training is often geared towards the HUMANS' best interests. Behaviour is about the DOGS' best interests. Behaviour is a veterinary and/or zoological field, and while there are some trainers who have some basic training and understanding of dog behaviour (such as those who go through the Delta Dog Program here in Aus, or equivalents in the US), the large majority of dog trainers are not trained in behaviour at all. Our understanding of dog and cat psychology and behaviour has evolved tremendously in the last twenty years, even in the last ten years. Methods that I used in puppy classes when I first started ten years ago are no longer being used, because we now know better. What was the norm twenty years ago is now outdated and has been replaced by kinder, lower stress methods. The veterinary behaviour industry is at the forefront of that.

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                    #10
                    Re: Tips on house training?

                    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                    Bear with me, V... some of this will be questions, some if it will be advice. If you can work through it try to answer all the questions best you can. I'll try and keep it as succinct as possible, but you know me lol. You're in a new house, right? This is not the same house we were in when you fostered Tyrian for a bit? I can't remember what age and breed this new dog is so remind of that please. Do you know much about his history aside from knowing him at work? Some more specific questions will pop up as I go through your posts...
                    Tyrion was in this house, briefly for a couple of days before we sent him to a better home. But he didn't have an accident in the house in the time we had him here, and we got rid of everything that could be scented like him (or washed it).

                    Jasper is four years old. He was raised by a family (afaik) in Inuvik, NT. He's what we call a 'northern special' here, or a husky-shepard mix. Currently, he is 32kgs, or 75lbs, and we are aiming for 35kgs as a healthy weight. He is being fed 5 cups a day of Blue Buffalo, and I've not noticed any stool problems or frequency problems because of that (some runny stool during the transition period, and sometimes when he's run a lot).

                    His family moved to Yellowknife, but felt he was too big to keep him in their new home, so off to the SPCA he went. The only thing I know about them and him is that he was leash trained, and that he has pannus, but his previous owner's didn't know, and he came to the SPCA almost blind. I have him on pretazolone (sp?), started at 4x a day, now at 3x a day. Hopefully by next year will be only once a day or once every other day. He needs a BUTT TON of exercise to tucker out. I rarely succeed at tuckering him out, even when we go hiking or running. And he's super tall, like 3 feet plus.

                    To start with, you did all the right things here. I just want to ask what you're cleaning up with? Which Nature's Miracle product? The reason I ask is because not all commercial products are actually any good at removing the underlying smells. They do a good job at cleaning and odor removal by human standards, but not by dog standards. You need a cleanser that is enzyme based. This is REALLY important. Enzymes are what clean up the underlying smells the best. I normally tell my clients to get a particular enzyme based washing powder that we can get here, because it's cheaper than the commercial urine sprays and it works better. What you are cleaning with can make a significant difference.

                    Secondly, how many times does he poop a day? And what are you feeding him? They should poop 2-3 times daily if they are being fed twice a day. Stools should be firm, cigar shaped, easily picked up without breaking up and leave a tiny smudge behind. If this is not the case, we need to revisit his diet. Even if you are already giving him a good quality diet, he may need a diet change. Dietary sensitivities can cause frequent stools, soft or hard stools, increased urge to defecate and a lower ability to hold on. Dietary sensitivities are also a lot more common than people realise and are the main cause of defecating in odd places, bad stool quality, eating lots of grass, intermittant vomiting, regular 'upset stomach' episodes, picky eating and flatulence.
                    It's the enzyme based Nature's Miracle. I used an entire jumbo bottle on the walls last night, and the remainder into the carpet. I barricaded him in the kitchen this morning, but he escaped, and peed twice on the walls where I cleaned them last night. I bought an entire other bottle of a different brand of enzyme cleaner, and this one seemed to do a better job of taking away the smell, but even I can smell it still. I bought a concentrated powder too, that I'm going to use on the carpets with a steam cleaner this weekend.

                    Like I said, I feed him 5 cups a day of Blue Buffalo (vet recommended this for a while). It's a full 1.5 cups more than the packaging says to give a dog his size, but he came to us a bit emancipated, and we are supposed to fatten him up, at least until we can't feel his spine and ribs easily anymore. The vet is so far really happy with how he is coming along, it terms of weight, health, and eye sight. Because of his eyes, he has regular check ups. We do 2 cups morning, 1 cup lunch, 2 cups evening. He typically poops about three times a day, sometimes four if we go for a REALLY long walk at night.

                    Right now he is on antibiotics and metacam for a puncture wound in his chin (dog attack last sunday). It's been upsetting his tummy, and making his poops like little bricks, instead of how it usually is, which is a bit softer. He also hasn't been as hungry. I've caught him eating grass for the past few days. His regular poops are somewhere from soft serve ice cream to firm, but squishy rolls of poop. Right now it is like little hard bricks.

                    This morning I got up early and took him for an extra long walk, and praised the beejeesus out of him every time he peed (he doesn't "pee". He marks a thousand times until his bladder is empty and then drink a ton and refills and repeats), and gave him treats, and when he pooped this morning, I went crazy like he just won a nobel prize. I can actually deal with poop indoors, it's been the pee that's really frustrating me. I barricaded him in the kitchen (I don't have the free time for buying a baby gate until sunday), but this morning he figured out how to get out, and made a mess, and left scratch marks on the walls. At lunch, I came home and cleaned up the mess (in the upstairs hall, again) and fixed the barricade (piles of boxes) so he couldn't get out. It worked, and no pee in the kitchen. Then I let him outside and praised him like mad for peeing in the yard. He really hated being left in the kitchen like that though. He really whined at me.

                    I really just want him to be free, like my cat, but he needs to no, no peeing.


                    Mostly art.

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                      #11
                      Re: Tips on house training?

                      Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
                      His family moved to Yellowknife, but felt he was too big to keep him in their new home, so off to the SPCA he went. The only thing I know about them and him is that he was leash trained, and that he has pannus, but his previous owner's didn't know, and he came to the SPCA almost blind. I have him on pretazolone (sp?), started at 4x a day, now at 3x a day. Hopefully by next year will be only once a day or once every other day. He needs a BUTT TON of exercise to tucker out. I rarely succeed at tuckering him out, even when we go hiking or running. And he's super tall, like 3 feet plus.
                      I'm not familiar with pretazolone, but I assume it's a cortisone eye drop? We use Maxidex for pannus usually, which is a cortisone based eye drop. If it's eye drops it shouldn't have any affect on his toileting, as it wont cause an increase in drinking. If he's on cortisone tablets (which would be a bit weird, but is possible... though if it's tablets please talk to your vet asap as he should NOT be on cortisone tablets and an NSAID at the same time... eye drops don't count as they aren't systemic) then a side effect can be an increased urgency to pee, along with increased drinking and appetite.

                      While it's important to give him plenty of exercise, remember that mental stimulation is just as important. Especially with a Shepherd x Husky as both those breeds are highly intelligent. They are also problem solvers and easily bored, which is why many of them tend towards destructive behaviour and escaping. It sounds like your current routine is a good one, just make sure he has things to occupy his mind while you're out. This is really, really important, especially as he's an only dog. It doesn't relate directly to your current toileting issues, but it is important to his long term mental health and will make your life easier in the long run.

                      Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
                      It's the enzyme based Nature's Miracle. I used an entire jumbo bottle on the walls last night, and the remainder into the carpet. I barricaded him in the kitchen this morning, but he escaped, and peed twice on the walls where I cleaned them last night. I bought an entire other bottle of a different brand of enzyme cleaner, and this one seemed to do a better job of taking away the smell, but even I can smell it still. I bought a concentrated powder too, that I'm going to use on the carpets with a steam cleaner this weekend.
                      This is a good plan. Remember you don't have to get the expensive commercial cleaner if it's cheaper and more cost effective to use something like an enzyme based washing powder. It's the enzymes you want... everything else is just window dressing.

                      Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
                      Like I said, I feed him 5 cups a day of Blue Buffalo (vet recommended this for a while). It's a full 1.5 cups more than the packaging says to give a dog his size, but he came to us a bit emancipated, and we are supposed to fatten him up, at least until we can't feel his spine and ribs easily anymore. The vet is so far really happy with how he is coming along, it terms of weight, health, and eye sight. Because of his eyes, he has regular check ups. We do 2 cups morning, 1 cup lunch, 2 cups evening. He typically poops about three times a day, sometimes four if we go for a REALLY long walk at night.
                      We don't have Blue Buffalo here, but it's one of the brands that I see the techs on my international groups talking about stocking and recommending. 3 times a day with 3 feeds is normal, so that's a good frequency. A 4th out on a big walk is also normal... there is often a 'nervous/excited' poop at the dog park or out on a long walk. So I'm not concerned about his frequency. I have some patients who poop 4-5 times per day, which is a classic sign of a diet that doesn't agree with him.

                      Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
                      Right now he is on antibiotics and metacam for a puncture wound in his chin (dog attack last sunday). It's been upsetting his tummy, and making his poops like little bricks, instead of how it usually is, which is a bit softer. He also hasn't been as hungry. I've caught him eating grass for the past few days. His regular poops are somewhere from soft serve ice cream to firm, but squishy rolls of poop. Right now it is like little hard bricks.
                      Again, normal, given that he's on antibiotics and metacam. Eating grass tells us that he's feeling very slightly nauseous as well. Eating grass is a loose equivalent to us taking an antacid, or a gas pill, or an indigestion pill. A little bit here and there is completely normal, but if it's on a daily basis then it's a sign of an upset tummy, especially if they vomit a bit of grass and white froth afterwards.

                      Soft-serve poops are not normal though. Neither are squishy poops that are hard to pick up cleanly. These sorts of poops are common, but not strictly normal, and indicate a degree of dietary sensitivity. Usually we see these with dogs that are on low quality diets. But sometimes we see them on high quality diets and it's just that a particular digestive system doesn't fully agree with them. I've changed dogs off super premium foods onto either different super premium or a premium (half a step down) because it just suits them better. Sometimes it's not the dog food, but the treats and tidbits that they get. So sometimes it's worth doing a trial to see what changes will help firm the stools up.

                      While he's on the medication though, don't change anything. He'll need to be off the meds for a week or so before you start thinking about what is 'normal' for him. Also, it is okay to give a dog his size a human probiotic tablet, once a day for 5 days after his antibiotics are finished. Just make sure it's dairy, sugar and sweetener free. Some sweeteners are toxic to dogs, some dogs get an upset stomach from dairy, and while sugar isn't bad per se, it's not good either lol. Or you can get probiotics for dogs. I always recommend probiotics after antibiotics when the dog has had an upset stomach. Also tell you vet about this, as they should be able to write a note on his file to try and avoid that antibiotic in the future. We usually have a few options that we can use for any given infection, and it's often acceptable to compromise slightly if it's going to avoid an upset stomach for the dog. Unfortunately, the Metacam could also be the culprit here, so the vet can make a note about both meds on his file.

                      The other thing that pops into my head here is the fact that he's a Shepherd mix, and he's thin, and his normal stools are a bit soft... has he been tested for Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency? Lots of Shepherds have EPI, which affects their ability to digest and metabolise their food. Some are severe and need treatment, some are minor and go undiagnosed their whole lives. Lots of Shepherds also suffer from dietary sensitivities, which put out similar symptoms and again, tends to go undiagnosed their whole lives. The hard thing with Jasper is that he has recently been in a shelter, which gives us the red herring of 'thin because he's been in a shelter' situation. Do you know if he was underweight when he was surrendered? If he was then it's possible he actually has an underlying digestive quirk. The first thing everyone who gets a shelter Shepherd assumes is 'he was underfed/neglected', but that's not always true.

                      Some of my clients have had great success using grain free foods for their Shepherds with EPI and other dietary issues. From memory, Blue Buffalo has one and I've heard the US techs talking about it.

                      The reason I've spent so much time on this is because this COULD potentially be a factor in his current toileting problems, unless your issues started well before all this. An upset stomach can give him a greater sense of urgency to toilet, which makes him less inclined to try and hold it.

                      Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
                      This morning I got up early and took him for an extra long walk, and praised the beejeesus out of him every time he peed (he doesn't "pee". He marks a thousand times until his bladder is empty and then drink a ton and refills and repeats), and gave him treats, and when he pooped this morning, I went crazy like he just won a nobel prize. I can actually deal with poop indoors, it's been the pee that's really frustrating me. I barricaded him in the kitchen (I don't have the free time for buying a baby gate until sunday), but this morning he figured out how to get out, and made a mess, and left scratch marks on the walls. At lunch, I came home and cleaned up the mess (in the upstairs hall, again) and fixed the barricade (piles of boxes) so he couldn't get out. It worked, and no pee in the kitchen. Then I let him outside and praised him like mad for peeing in the yard. He really hated being left in the kitchen like that though. He really whined at me.

                      I really just want him to be free, like my cat, but he needs to no, no peeing.
                      Excellent, keep this up. However...

                      A good barricade will be important to block access to his Plan B pee-spot. But remember that you need an 'acceptable alternative' in the short term. Some newspaper will suffice until you have time to get some absorbant pads (which are only recommended because they are easier to clean up and don't leave any seep-through onto your carpet). You can blot up some pee with a piece of newspaper, then lay it on a few other sheets of newspaper in an area next to the barricade (and tape it up the walls if necessary). Then when he feels the need to pee when you're not home, instead of trying to break through the barricade he will (hopefully) pee on the paper. The pee that you blotted onto it will tell him 'this is a good place to pee'. Don't skip the 'acceptable alternative' step, because if you do, he'll just use his brains to try and get through your barricade and into the area that he has deemed his 'Plan B pee-spot. Which will teach him a habit of escapism. Then you'll consider him destructive as well as toileting in inappropriate places.

                      Also make sure that his toys and whatnot are present with him in the kitchen. And actively play with him in the kitchen when you are home. What happens when we barricade dogs in kitchens and laundries is we've effectively locked them up in an unusual non-living space. Kitchens are particularly guilty of this. We often spend a lot of time when we are home making them leave the kitchen (because we don't want them hanging around when we are cooking or whatever) and interacting with them in the living room. So then when you lock him in the kitchen, you're locking him in a room that a) is not a fun room because you always play with him out in the living room/den, and b) he's not normally allowed in because you're always telling him to get out. So it becomes a source of inconsistency and anxiety for them. It's not that they don't like the kitchen, it's that they are confused about why they normally don't spend time there, and now you're making them stay there. Counteract that by actively making whatever room he will be confined to during the day the SAME room that you play with him and interact with him in when you are home. That means actively making the kitchen the place to be. Also, if he will be locked in there during the day, move his bed and feeding station in there so that he is more likely to use it when you are home.

                      I see this all the time with puppies who get locked in the laundry when people go out. Often this exact same pup will be perfectly happy confined to a bedroom, or the living room, but the minute it's the kitchen or laundry it's a different matter. It's because we have set up certain associations with certain rooms, then reverse the rules and expect them to keep up. It makes sense to US... but not the them.

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