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    Invasive species discussion (split from cat thread)

    Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
    Ours is NOT happy indoors. He's lived his whole life indoors, but he just doesn't like it. He has a secured terrace (our roof terrace is as large as our living room), but it's not enough. We'll let him out when we move to a place with a yard. But, in Germany the ecosystem is a bit different. We've already pretty much destroyed all of our natural habitats around anywhere with people and there are pretty much no predator species left. He's neutered, so he's not a threat to native wild cats (they interbreed, which is killing them out. Not that there's many of those left, either).
    Yeah, as I said, I've met a few who aren't happy indoors. I've even met one or two who I actively told people to let outside if they couldn't change their situation (which they couldn't, because part of the issue was the three kids under 5 who terrorised the poor thing!).

    On the topic of native wildlife, there's an organisation here which does catch, spay/neuter and release of stray cats. They've done some studies that show that cats killing wildlife is a) not as common as people think and b) not enough to actually create that much change to populations. They release rather than euthanise because removing a cat from the community completely can actually create further issues. I know that there are similar programs in the US, so I imagine there is also some support in Europe. The point there is that an outdoor cat is actually not that detrimental to the environment or to native populations (a thousand might be a different story though... hence desexing them all so they can't interbreed and create more).

    #2
    Re: Cat Hazards

    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
    Yeah, as I said, I've met a few who aren't happy indoors. I've even met one or two who I actively told people to let outside if they couldn't change their situation (which they couldn't, because part of the issue was the three kids under 5 who terrorised the poor thing!).

    On the topic of native wildlife, there's an organisation here which does catch, spay/neuter and release of stray cats. They've done some studies that show that cats killing wildlife is a) not as common as people think and b) not enough to actually create that much change to populations. They release rather than euthanise because removing a cat from the community completely can actually create further issues. I know that there are similar programs in the US, so I imagine there is also some support in Europe. The point there is that an outdoor cat is actually not that detrimental to the environment or to native populations (a thousand might be a different story though... hence desexing them all so they can't interbreed and create more).
    Yeah I think they might do something similar, but it doesn't totally solve problems. I think pet owners here tend to be problematic. Some people have issues with neutering male pets (more dogs than cats, but some still won't do it to cats) because they think it's ruining their masculinity. It drives me crazy.

    There are some major, major conservation issues in Germany, but most are due to land use. Bird populations really suffer when the fields and forests that they call home are totally wiped out in favour of agriculture. Still, non-neutered or spayed cats do threaten wildlife, it just tends to be due to interbreeding rather than their hunting patterns. I'd never let an unneutered cat outside!

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      #3
      Re: Cat Hazards

      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
      On the topic of native wildlife, there's an organisation here which does catch, spay/neuter and release of stray cats. They've done some studies that show that cats killing wildlife is a) not as common as people think and b) not enough to actually create that much change to populations. They release rather than euthanise because removing a cat from the community completely can actually create further issues. I know that there are similar programs in the US, so I imagine there is also some support in Europe. The point there is that an outdoor cat is actually not that detrimental to the environment or to native populations (a thousand might be a different story though... hence desexing them all so they can't interbreed and create more).
      We have feral cat colonies that number over a hundred...on a good weather day, you can see dozens of them lounging in the parking lots on base . Some studies show the average 5 to as high as 9 native birds (as oppposed to birds in general) killed each year. Because of where the birds are, that tends to be nesting shorebirds...US studies estimake the number of birds killed by cats annually at something like 1 billion, give or take a few million (apparently newer studies are even higher)...and that's not counting reptiles and amphibians. Despite being an urban ares, the sheer number of waterways and flood areas make this fairly wildlife rich for an urban landscape. Feral cats compete with foxes, skunks, river otter, etc. You cant possibly steralize the problem away. From an ecological perspective, they are a nightmare...and only slightly less so in an urban environment (due to people feeding them and scavenging, and the number of other invasive species--non-native mice and rats) than in rural areas (my undergrad thesis was on the ecological impact of pet ownership....dont even get me started on pet waste and watershed ecology, lol).
      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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        #4
        Re: Cat Hazards

        Out here in farm-land, you'd expect to have a feral cat problem, what with barn cats and all, but we actually see very few feral cats. Between the 'coons, coyotes, and eagles (to say nothing of the wild cats, like bobcats), as well as the diseases that will wipe out an entire barnfull of cats in a week or so, we generally only see a wild cat or two every now and then.

        And those cats tend to be "dumped" cats (I HATE pet dumpers! The pets would be bettor off euthenized) who live miserable lives then disappear after a couple months.
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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          #5
          Re: Cat Hazards

          Yeah, I don't think feral cats are a huge issue here. I barely even see them in Berlin, despite all the massive rats they could be eating (we have a lot of very fat rats here). I think they must come pick them up or they get hit by cars really quickly.

          My hometown in Canada is on the water and there was always a healthy population of feral cats living at the harbour. I think they lived off the castoffs from fishing boats.

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            #6
            Re: Cat Hazards

            Vegas depends on its feral cat population for pest control. We've got roof rats, brown rats, black rats, plain ol rat-rats, field mice... and Hanta virus. Luckily fleas aren't much of a problem here, or we'd have bubonic plague like some other cities do. So the huge feral cat population (we also have TNR programs here) controls the rodents (and to an extent, the pigeons & our native grackles), and the coyotes, foxes, mountain lions & cars control the cat populations. If it wasn't for the cats I'd hate to see what some of our buffets & back alleys would look like.
            The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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              #7
              Re: Cat Hazards

              Originally posted by Ophidia View Post
              Vegas depends on its feral cat population for pest control. We've got roof rats, brown rats, black rats, plain ol rat-rats, field mice... and Hanta virus. Luckily fleas aren't much of a problem here, or we'd have bubonic plague like some other cities do. So the huge feral cat population (we also have TNR programs here) controls the rodents (and to an extent, the pigeons & our native grackles), and the coyotes, foxes, mountain lions & cars control the cat populations. If it wasn't for the cats I'd hate to see what some of our buffets & back alleys would look like.
              Yeah a lot of places in the Mediterranean seem to as well. Athens has cats everywhere.

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                #8
                Re: Cat Hazards

                Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                We have feral cat colonies that number over a hundred...on a good weather day, you can see dozens of them lounging in the parking lots on base . Some studies show the average 5 to as high as 9 native birds (as oppposed to birds in general) killed each year. Because of where the birds are, that tends to be nesting shorebirds...US studies estimake the number of birds killed by cats annually at something like 1 billion, give or take a few million (apparently newer studies are even higher)...and that's not counting reptiles and amphibians. Despite being an urban ares, the sheer number of waterways and flood areas make this fairly wildlife rich for an urban landscape. Feral cats compete with foxes, skunks, river otter, etc. You cant possibly steralize the problem away. From an ecological perspective, they are a nightmare...and only slightly less so in an urban environment (due to people feeding them and scavenging, and the number of other invasive species--non-native mice and rats) than in rural areas (my undergrad thesis was on the ecological impact of pet ownership....dont even get me started on pet waste and watershed ecology, lol).
                Here, a higher percentage of the 'average cat kills per year' are introduced species rather than native species. And a high percentage of THAT is rats and mice, rather than birds. In most suburban environments, there are no native predators to help control the invasive introduced species. So we have feral cats competing with foxes (both introduced and invasive), meanwhile the native quoll is out bush with very little competition (and foxes compete with them moreso than feral cats). Urbanisation and habitat destruction is far more detrimental to our native wildlife than cats are. Our feral cat population isn't anywhere near as high, and their impact on the environment is, ironically, not as detrimental (which is not to say that it's not detrimental, just that it's not quite as drastic as most people think it is). It goes to show the differences depending on where you live though. I'm talking about urban and suburban Adelaide here (there are also studies done in Melbourne and Canberra) but it will be different in other places. And I've seen documentaries on feral cat 'colonies' in places in the US... where there are literally hundreds of cats hanging around in a park. There's nothing like that here.

                I prefer indoor only cats, but I also spend a lot of time having to politely listen to cat-haters who rant about cats killing wildlife in my consult room. Yes, people will spout vitriolic hatred about an animal to a vet, at the vet clinic. And expect us to join in.

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                  #9
                  Re: Cat Hazards

                  At any rate, it's not the cat's fault. They do what animals do when they need to survive.

                  Pointless to hate them for being what they are. In the right place (a home) they are marvelous creatures.

                  You know, I could hate ferrets - they kill our livestock. But why? It's what they are, and, from what I've been told, they are interesting pets,
                  Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post

                    ...So we have feral cats competing with foxes (both introduced and invasive), meanwhile the native quoll is out bush with very little competition (and foxes compete with them moreso than feral cats).
                    Wilpena NP just reintroduced quolls. They used to be native there, but died out. The bought some over from WA in an effort at re-population. We have less fox problems here than down south, so cats our here are monsters. They are the only animal I aim to run down in my cat at night lol.

                    Also dingos, too many holes in the fence. We've started having dingo problems.

                    And B., ferrets are awesome. Super clever little things. I could have ferrets as pets.
                    ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                    RIP

                    I have never been across the way
                    Seen the desert and the birds
                    You cut your hair short
                    Like a shush to an insult
                    The world had been yelling
                    Since the day you were born
                    Revolting with anger
                    While it smiled like it was cute
                    That everything was shit.

                    - J. Wylder

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                      #11
                      Re: Cat Hazards

                      Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                      At any rate, it's not the cat's fault. They do what animals do when they need to survive.

                      Pointless to hate them for being what they are. In the right place (a home) they are marvelous creatures.

                      You know, I could hate ferrets - they kill our livestock. But why? It's what they are, and, from what I've been told, they are interesting pets,

                      If you are going to hate anyone, it should be the people that put them somewhere that they don't belong...

                      ...of course (from my perspective) that doesn't mean that you just roll over and let an invasive species do its thing either. I'm not a fan of capture-fix-release programs. In the absence of cats, there are a number of native wild animals that do quite well in urban environments...and in some cases, are more useful. The coyote, for example, can regulate its litter size to meet the carrying capacity of an environment, and it does a great job controlling the Canada goose problem in cities (in addition to the rodent problem).
                      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                        #12
                        Re: Cat Hazards

                        Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                        If you are going to hate anyone, it should be the people that put them somewhere that they don't belong...

                        ...of course (from my perspective) that doesn't mean that you just roll over and let an invasive species do its thing either. I'm not a fan of capture-fix-release programs. In the absence of cats, there are a number of native wild animals that do quite well in urban environments...and in some cases, are more useful. The coyote, for example, can regulate its litter size to meet the carrying capacity of an environment, and it does a great job controlling the Canada goose problem in cities (in addition to the rodent problem).
                        I agree, absolutely. I was posting in reference to Rea'ya's mention of cat hating rants to veterinarians
                        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                          #13
                          Re: Cat Hazards

                          Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                          If you are going to hate anyone, it should be the people that put them somewhere that they don't belong...

                          ...of course (from my perspective) that doesn't mean that you just roll over and let an invasive species do its thing either. I'm not a fan of capture-fix-release programs. In the absence of cats, there are a number of native wild animals that do quite well in urban environments...and in some cases, are more useful. The coyote, for example, can regulate its litter size to meet the carrying capacity of an environment, and it does a great job controlling the Canada goose problem in cities (in addition to the rodent problem).
                          I absolutely agree too... when there is a native alternative who will fit that niche. Unfortunately, Australia has a rather tragic history of introducing invasive species and then implementing some really, really bad ideas in an effort to control them. Cane toads, anyone?

                          Anyway, we digress... yes, you should keep your kitty inside, Thal! For several very good reasons.

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                            #14
                            Re: Cat Hazards

                            Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                            If you are going to hate anyone, it should be the people that put them somewhere that they don't belong...

                            ...of course (from my perspective) that doesn't mean that you just roll over and let an invasive species do its thing either. I'm not a fan of capture-fix-release programs. In the absence of cats, there are a number of native wild animals that do quite well in urban environments...and in some cases, are more useful. The coyote, for example, can regulate its litter size to meet the carrying capacity of an environment, and it does a great job controlling the Canada goose problem in cities (in addition to the rodent problem).
                            Depends where you're talking about, though. Foxes are the only ones over here that do fine in cities and they don't really get rid of the rats all that well. That's why people started domesticating cats in Europe in the first place. Raccoons do very, very well, but they are not native and are far more invasive.

                            I guess that cats have been here for a lot longer, though. Wild cats are very close relatives to European domestic shorthair cats and domestic cats have been around for over 1,000 years. That makes a difference.

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                              #15
                              Re: Cat Hazards

                              Maybe I should separate all of the invasive species chat...

                              IMO, its a totally interesting subject.

                              Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
                              Depends where you're talking about, though. Foxes are the only ones over here that do fine in cities and they don't really get rid of the rats all that well. That's why people started domesticating cats in Europe in the first place. Raccoons do very, very well, but they are not native and are far more invasive.

                              I guess that cats have been here for a lot longer, though. Wild cats are very close relatives to European domestic shorthair cats and domestic cats have been around for over 1,000 years. That makes a difference.

                              This reminds me...we were watching a documentary on racoons, and they were talking about the problems they have in Europe with them...because in Europe, they are invasive (also, I think they are a problem in Japan...but I could be mixing that up with something else). Beaver are a problem in Argentina. Being in the US, my focus ecologically speaking is generally our native species with invasive species generally being from Europe, Asia, and Africa... But then again, look at the European honeybee--its not a native species here either (of course, its also not invasive)...and just because something is indigenous doesn't mean it can't be harmful either--the coyote-wolf hybridization occuring in Ontario and the northern US, cow-nosed rays predating depleted oyster beds in the Chesapeake, etc....

                              I do think though that the evolutionary history makes a difference. One of the hypotheses on the extinction large mammals outside of Africa (wooly mammoths, etc) lays the "blame" on early humans and hunting...and while that's probably not the only cause (climate change, and some other issues), I wouldn't surprised if it was contributory. I mean, lets be honest about ourselves as a species--humans are pretty much the ultimate non-native, invading species for pretty much all of Earth. Everywhere we have gone we have changed the environment to suit ourselves (whether intentionally and overtly or subconsciously and covertly)--and I do mean everywhere...and that includes most indigenous peoples as well.
                              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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