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    Which to use for learning a new language?

    What do you guys think: busuu, Duolingo, or Rosetta Stone?

    I found busuu to be tedious and slow. I like Duolingo because I learn multiple languages and I like the pacing, organization, and simplicity. Rosetta Stone is okay but it costs money, and sometimes I have no idea what is going on in the pictures.

    But if you all have any defenses or suggestions that'd be awesome.

    #2
    Re: Which to use for learning a new language?

    Anki!!! No matter what you use for learning grammar and so on, for vocabulary you can't beat anki. It was the single most important study aid I came across on my quest to master Japanese.

    After that, it really depends on the language you're learning, because there are a lot of great free resources online, but they're often language specific (sites funded by official institutions within the countries the language is spoken tend to be very good for example). I'm not very familiar with the programs you mention, but I've heard of them. People have reported that they're fine for the basics, but you will need to move onto other means of study if you want to progress into intermediate and advanced use.

    Best of luck!
    夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Which to use for learning a new language?

      I agree that it depends on the language. Duolingo is great for learning a new language from scratch or refreshing your knowledge, but I find that it's challenging with some languages and the support isn't there if you're at a more advanced stage. I don't think I could learn much German from there (I'm already fluent, but obviously not a native speaker). I also found that Irish was a challenge because the spelling conventions are so different from other European languages and it doesn't really go into them.
      Duolingo is also not too practical if you want to learn a language to go somewhere. There are so many phrases like "the cake is black" and not enough "I'd like two train tickets, please." I found the Earworms audio book series really helpful for travel languages, because it just repeats key phrases over and over and over again until they're drilled into your head. You won't really be able to have a conversation about your kids, but you will learn enough Italian (for example) that you can order food, ask for directions, and buy tickets if you end up somewhere where no one speaks English (which is very likely, at least in Italy).

      I'm not sure that online programs and tools can help with intermediate and advanced language skills. I think they help to learn the basics, but you really need to talk to people and immerse yourself in the language (through books, DVDs, podcasts, etc) to take it up a notch. That's why I don't like paid services like Rosetta. I think all you're going to get out of any of them is the basics and maybe some lower intermediate, so I'd just stick with the free ones to give yourself a leg up, invest in some dictionaries (online ones work too, and once you get to a certain level, dictionaries for native speakers are even better, eg whatever the lagnuage's equivalent of Oxford and Webster's is) and grammar books (the ones that the native speakers use...those are the best once you can understand them), and start reading magazines, easy books, and watching tv. I know I live in Germany and that helped a lot, but a lot of English speakers live here and never learn German. I have friends who have been here for like 5 years and can barely order coffee. But doing that stuff helped me a lot.

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        #4
        Re: Which to use for learning a new language?

        I agree with Danie and Jembru. That being said, I just started learning Spanish with Pimsleur, and so far, it seems pretty decent. It drills sentences and words into your head by repetition. I don't know how advanced you can get with that, though.


        Mostly art.

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          #5
          Re: Which to use for learning a new language?

          As long as it's not Google Translate, I think you'll be okay. That thing can confuse an English-speaking German and a German-speaking American.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Moth View Post
            As long as it's not Google Translate, I think you'll be okay. That thing can confuse an English-speaking German and a German-speaking American.
            Aw I like Google Translate! But then I only use it to check myself, if I don't know a word or are wondering about some phrasing, and I know if it's getting it wrong...

            But I agree with Jem, ANKI!!!!!
            ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

            RIP

            I have never been across the way
            Seen the desert and the birds
            You cut your hair short
            Like a shush to an insult
            The world had been yelling
            Since the day you were born
            Revolting with anger
            While it smiled like it was cute
            That everything was shit.

            - J. Wylder

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Which to use for learning a new language?

              Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
              I'm not sure that online programs and tools can help with intermediate and advanced language skills.
              I agree with most of what you've said. Especially that after a point, immersion is vital if you want to progress to the point where conversing isn't a struggle anymore. However, I'm not sure I entirely agree that online tools have nothing to offer an advanced learner. I think it is important to remember that a language is more than one skill, so while no one single program will give you everything you need, a carefully selected variety of 4 or 5 programs can be very effective. There are some skills that can be assisted even at the advanced level with online tools. I'm thinking especially of lang-8 here (and of course,you can add as much advanced vocab as you wish to anki too). Lang-8 is actually better than speaking to native speakers in some regards. You need conversation too of course, absolutely. Conversations obviously help to develop listening and motor skills and the processes of organising ones thoughts in their second language, but at least in the case of Japanese, I have found that friends don't tend to correct me unless I say something really silly. By posting a journal to lang-8 I get the input of native speakers, whether it is correcting my grammar, or just suggesting an alternative or more natural way to say something. I get to learn how the language is used; which noun/verb pairs frequently appear together (collocation), idiomatic expression and so on. One lang-8 article can offer more feedback than a month of evening classes.

              Speaking is often a tricky skill to develop for learners. As DanieMarie points out, even people who have lived in a country for several years, can still struggle with this. You just can't learn to speak without doing it. People often make the assumption that if you can read, or even write in a language, you'll just magically be able to speak, but this rarely is the case. I have a friend who I chat with on skype. She has passed N1 of the JLPT (the highest level of the internationally recognised Japanese proficiency test), can watch pretty much anything without subtitles and has a massive vocabulary. This girl is even reading the Bible in Japanese! (to put this in perspective, I'm currently reading at about 4th grade ^^). Yet somehow she really struggles to speak. Considerably more than I do. Even despite her vast vocabulary, while we're chatting if I say, 'what's that word again'.. and give the English, her mind just goes blank.

              That's why I must second the Pimsleur recommendation. Sure it only covers basic sentences but it offers physical training to get you used to the process of speaking early on. I used the 30 CD course for German but my Japanese was already beyond the level of Pimsleur when I discovered it. So for Japanese I made my own tracks. I recorded myself saying sentences from my textbook, leaving gaps to repeat, and I even included some of the 'fill-the-blanks' sentences (there is actually a 2 year old youtube video somewhere in which I demonstrate this.. so embarrassing ^^). I also made earworm tracks (I used that for German too.. again, I definitely recommend it for tourist-level language), of phrases relevant to me, using funky tunes from YouTube. This helped me to get confident with introductions/small talk.

              I have an awesome textbook that I use for speaking practice, that sadly doesn't exist for other languages, but I actually found a way to use online resources to support speaking practice too! I have kept a video journal for 2 years now. I just record myself talking about anything and everything in Japanese. When I play it back I look up things I couldn't say and critique my grammar. I then write up a polished version of what I said and post it to Lang-8. This way I can see where the expressions I use when speaking work, and when they are a bit awkward. There's no other way to get that kind of feedback on my spoken Japanese.

              Even youtube can be used for listening or speaking practice. You can even slow down videos to hear what they say more clearly, and repeat after the speaker. Look up videos of the listening tracks from proficiency tests of your chosen language.. they're on there, and offer excellent listening practice!

              So yeah, you'd be surprised how much you can squeeze out of online resources if you're willing to be resourceful with what's available.
              夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Which to use for learning a new language?

                I think I might be biased, because the only second language I've managed to get advanced in is German, and I live in Germany. Learning a language when you're immersed in the culture (especially when your significant other comes from that country and you only ever talk in that language) and learning it in your home country are very different experiences, in my opinion. Living in Germany and speaking German every day (and reading, and watching TV/movies, and listening to the radio, etc), I don't really feel like language programs have much to offer me, but I would probably feel differently if I -didn't- live in Germany.

                I agree with YouTube videos! Aside from language-learning tools, native speakers make videos in their own languages, and it's really great to listen to stuff that native speakers watch/hear.

                Also, always check out the public radio broadcaster in that country! I've learned quite a bit of Gaelic from BBC Alba. I also know that Deutsche Welle has a ton of free resources for people who want to learn German. A lot of broadcasters have a good mix of free language learning tools, videos, radio broadcasts at various levels, and stuff like that. It's not really enough on its own (at least, not for me) but it really helps boost your learning.

                I tend to think that any one program or tool isn't really enough on its own. From what I gather from everyone else's posts, we're all on the same page there!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Which to use for learning a new language?

                  Yes! Deutsche Welle's resources are great. This is exactly what I meant by looking to stuff produced from within the country where your second language is spoken. For German, Deutsche Welle is definitely the way to go. I loved their audio courses. For Japanese the Japan foundation's 'Erin ga chousen! nihongo dekimasu' at erin.ne.jp is an amazing free resource. It is an interactive course that offers games and authentic dialogue via scripted skits as well as real-life documentary style videos. Everything is scripted so that you can read along. There is an accompanying TV series and the episodes can all be found on youtube. So definitely start by looking at teaching material made by institutions within the country of origin!

                  I agree that it is a little tougher to learn a language from outside of the counties it is spoken in. It's why my friend started her forum, Gaiwa. She had noticed how many people have a genuine interest in learning Japanese but then quit after a few months or so. She figured that if people who'd stuck it out long enough to uncover all these hidden tricks and methods could share what they know, and show that it IS possible, then more people might stay around long enough to reach their goal.

                  That said, I think picking up the language by immersion alone has it's challenges too. Personality seems to play a large part, because those too shy, or scared to make mistakes, are going to have a harder time. I rarely spoke while in Germany for example, and in the whole year I was in Japan I maybe picked up about 10 words I didn't know before I arrived (although I was working in a largely English-speaking environment). Even now, while I am mostly at peace with my Japanese being incomplete, I go into panic mode when speaking Japanese with someone I've never spoken to before.

                  The language you're learning probably makes a difference too. For example, we've discussed this before in the past, but I found that German speakers were much more forthcoming with correction and grammar explanations than the Japanese. So maybe learning in Germany would make things like lang-8 less important. Again, depending on your personality. For someone shy like me, constantly being corrected was quite overwhelming. Even on lang-8, my heart sinks for a moment when I see that almost every sentence of 400+ word post has been corrected.

                  Another issue with Japanese is that learning from a spouse has its drawbacks. Because there is such a marked difference in speaking style between men and women (more so when speaking casually, as you would to a partner), it's not uncommon for guys to end up speaking in the feminine style. My friend from Indonesia had this issue. She dated a Japanese guy while she was studying in Japan. Of course, her Japanese is amazing (she's my 'language parent'), but she has a slightly masculine flavour to her speech.
                  夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Which to use for learning a new language?

                    I think it depends on how long you're there, too. Like, it's really hard to learn a language totally fluently in a year, even if you're super outgoing. In the same vein, even if you're really worried about making mistakes and need a lot of time to meet people and make friends, 9 years in a country will do the trick, as long as you're willing to make some effort (I know people who have been here for years and haven't learned German at all but I suspect they just don't want to all that much).

                    That's interesting about the masculine/feminine aspect of Japanese! Most European languages aren't like that at all (you can get some dude-ish or girly slang, but that's about it). It's interesting how some languages are so much more subtle!

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                      #11
                      Re: Which to use for learning a new language?

                      While it's too deeply ingrained in the language to ever go away completely, some aspects of th fem/masc differences are gradually phasing out it seems. The rules are more often broken too, more so with girls using masculine words than the other way. Even in the time I've been studying certain 'female' words such as 'kashira' (I wonder.. fem version of 'kana') 'wa' (sentence emphasiser with no meaning, fem equivalent of 'na' or 'ze') aren't being used by younger speakers. My friends sometimes use them, so I think from late 20s onwards, they're still fairly common, but I've been told not to use them by people on lang-8. They said I sounded like an anime character. Lang-8 has a lot of younger users, so I assume this was a teenager, who wasn't aware that I was in my 30s.

                      Danie brings up another important point.. whatever you decide to use. Be prepared from the outset that it is going to take you years, not months, to master your language of choice. I used to think there was something wrong with my IQ, because I hadn't mastered Japanese after 2 years, despite people claiming it can be done in a year (usually people who want your money or YouTube hits). In fact DanieMarie played an important role in making me see the reality of language acquisition!
                      夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Which to use for learning a new language?

                        My daughter has "spanish lessons" with our nextdoor neighbors (they are a young mexican couple from southern california) and "signing lessons" from her little friend that is deaf (and her interpreter), but she really wants to learn chinese... Collin wants to lear5n german. I understand a bit of spanish (I can read decently, speak enough to not get lost...comprehension of normal speaking speed is where i get lost...i can catch maybe one word in three, sometime enough to get the gist of a conversation) and some german vocab--my grandma was bilingual, her parents were from germany...but once wwii started, it was a bit frowned upon (speaking german in my home town survived wwi, but nt wwii). I always wanted to learn russian, but lets face it--spanish is more useful in the US.

                        I like duolingo, but i dont think I'd like it if I was a total newbie at a language. I thought about getting rosetta stone for the kids (There's a kid version)...they also make a program called little pim, but i didnt think it would sustain the kids attention. For signing, ther is an awesome kids program called signing time...i'd like to find a language program like that. Maybe the earworm one would be useful.

                        We do signapre math for extra math practice, and they have a chinese program...but its meant as an immersion text, so that is no help to us at home...i did manage to score a pretty awesome elementary school german book and latin 1 &2 2 the thrift store though...
                        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                        sigpic

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                          #13
                          I know whay the better resources are for indonesian, but not all off the top o my head! Lol

                          If any one is interested I can point them in the right direction though!
                          ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                          RIP

                          I have never been across the way
                          Seen the desert and the birds
                          You cut your hair short
                          Like a shush to an insult
                          The world had been yelling
                          Since the day you were born
                          Revolting with anger
                          While it smiled like it was cute
                          That everything was shit.

                          - J. Wylder

                          Comment


                            #14
                            夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Which to use for learning a new language?

                              がんばって! I need to get back into the swing of language study :s

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