When bad things happen

[Medusa]

Re: When bad things happen

Maybe our individual lives aren't as important as we'd like to think. Maybe we're each just a stitch in a huge, ongoing tapestry. Some stitches make up the light, some the dark. I dunno.

Eff that. I want a do over! Unstich this biatch!

[Aeran]

Re: When bad things happen

I totally get the reason to believe in this. Don't get me wrong. But if I follow the logic, this is what I get. How do you personally rationalize babies dying of Ebola at a few months old? What does your belief system say about this sort of thing? Not trying to criticism but just point out something I don't understand at all.

Ok lets roll with your example.

For starters, if you believe, truly believe in the depth of your being, that the human spirit is immortal, that it spends the time between incarnations in plane of existence every bit as real as this one (which is generally a pleasant place, unless you've been a special kind of asshole), that it will be reborn again and again and live out dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of lives, the ultimate purpose being to develop and grow closer to the Divine, and that, at least roughly, the details of an individuals life are planned out by them or a higher power prior to being born, then you lose a lot of that instinctive sense of horror (and in the case of a child or youth, waste) that thinking about death induces. Death isn't total oblivion, a capital "E" END, just a transition to a different state of being in the cyclical nature of our existence. If you can look at it from this perspective, you can understand that it's a very undesirable, but not horrible and final, event.

Which isn't to say it doesn't suck, it does. Even if the child is too young to comprehend it, it sure as hell sucks for their family. This is a part where you have to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. To someone like yourself, an atheist, there is nothing but our experience of this reality which starts at birth and ends at death, and so for a child to die means that child is robbed of most of their existence, and that their parents are robbed of the child they'd not only grown to loved and planned out a lifetime raising, but that was part of their legacy, more or less their only form of continued existence. To someone who believes the aforementioned, however, the child (and the parents - the karma could be as much theirs as the childs) is experiencing what they need to experience to continue to grow as an individual, even if it isn't remotely pleasant (and life's lessons rarely are), it also isn't permanent, and neither is the separation between child and parent.

Likewise, if you believe the aforementioned, then nobody, not even a new born child, is a blank slate, everyone has lifetimes worth of deeds they've committed, good and bad - and part of why they've incarnated is to work out that karma, to reap the rewards for the good deeds and suffer the consequences of the bad ones (again, not as punishment or as revenge, but as a lesson). No matter how cute and innocent and unaware a baby looks, they've probably committed horrible deeds at some stage and deeds of staggering kindness, bravery, charity or love at others.

Before I make my next point, it's worth mentioning that there's still a strong element of free will and chance involved - maybe the hypothetical child didn't die of ebola because they were a murderer in a past life, maybe they just died of ebola because someone was selfishly lazy and infected them (thus accumulating their own negative karma), or they just suffered plain bad luck (which is awful, but sometimes stuff just happens). Without that, there's no point to the whole thing.

Now from your perspective - death, or a horrible illness, or even something less dramatic but still pretty awful to go through like a divorce, or a drug addiction - all that might seem like a pretty excessive way to teach a lesson, but if you try to look at things from the described perspective, you'll see that they're fairly minor in the scheme of things. One day everyone will die, and then pass on until they're ready to reincarnate, and then be reborn. Everyone will go through these things dozens of times over (and the good things too, of course) or more, even if they can't see it at the time, and ultimately, they'll be the better for it.

Remember when you were a kid, maybe a teenager, and you misbehaved somehow (maybe you got into a fight with a sibling, or didn't do your homework, etc etc), and your parents punished you? Maybe they grounded you and forced you to miss something you wanted to go to, or stuck you in your room with nothing to do but be bored, or deprived you of something (pocket money, a favorite snack, time spent doing things you enjoyed, whatever). Remember how huge it seemed? You didn't think about the fact that you had a whole life of social events ahead of you, or that the time being bored was only temporary, or that you'd get plenty of money/snacks/entertainment in the future. There was no big picture, no larger perspective, all you could think about is how someone could do something so horrible to you, and the punishment seemed to drag on forever (one whole weekend unable to go out?), and even after it ended you were sure you'd never make up for what you'd been deprived of or subjected to. You didn't think about the fact that your parents could

[Medusa]

Re: When bad things happen

No. I don't think you are being heartless at all. In fact you explained your position extremely well. And I have a little more understanding in to how your view of reincarnation works. And I get it. The big picture. It makes small things like death..small..when you consider you get to just keep on going.

My problem. How do you learn a lesson when you have no memory? I know it's going to involve a long explanation of how the soul works. Probably some kind of muscle memory explanation etc etc. But yeah, I'll be honest. I can understand it on a logical level because you explained it extremely well. And I thank you for that. I can see you have a lot of thought into this. Which is more than most can say.

But in all honesty? That's a hell of a lot of rationalization to go through to explain something like Harlequin disease. Or crack addicted babies. I just won't ever ever..and I do mean ever...say that kid probably had some lesson to learn. Whatever universe thinks that's a way of teaching a human being who will probably only live months a lesson...no thanks. I call bunk personally on how I view reincarnation.

Now that's not to be disrespectful of your belief system. But my belief system doesn't allow for sugar coating my opinions.

(dis be why I'm an atheist!)

but again thank you for the explanation.

[Aeran]

Re: When bad things happen

My problem. How do you learn a lesson when you have no memory? I know it's going to involve a long explanation of how the soul works. Probably some kind of muscle memory explanation etc etc. But yeah, I'll be honest. I can understand it on a logical level because you explained it extremely well. And I thank you for that. I can see you have a lot of thought into this. Which is more than most can say.

It's complicated, and even if I thought anyone was interested enough to make writing up an explanation worth it, I'm too tired right now

But yeah, I have put a lot of thought into it because it's something I've struggled with understanding and coming to terms with a great deal myself. I mean even if death isn't oblivion, it's still a pretty huge change/disruption, so while the existential aspect of the fear of death is gone, it's definitely not something I like the idea of doing before I've lived a long and full life and achieved my goals. It's a big change personally and a big transition environmentally, not to mention the whole idea of starting over, and over, and over... eternity can be almost as daunting as nothingness sometimes, which is part of my drive to dedicate myself to my practice.

And of course, I don't have any hard evidence of most of this, it's just what I've been taught by teachers who I've found to be trustworthy in every case in which I could verify what they said, and what makes the most sense in my own worldview, research and experience (I've had experiences which have both made me certain that there is a soul and a spirit, that they exist at least somewhat independently of the body and that they are capable of leaving it and functioning outside of it, and I've had experiences which give me decent reason to believe that the soul and/or spirit continue to exist after the body dies, at least for a period of time).

But in all honesty? That's a hell of a lot of rationalization to go through to explain something like Harlequin disease. Or crack addicted babies. I just won't ever ever..and I do mean ever...say that kid probably had some lesson to learn. Whatever universe thinks that's a way of teaching a human being who will probably only live months a lesson...no thanks. I call bunk personally on how I view reincarnation.

It's not rationalization, it's a worldview constructed from personal experience, the experience of trusted authorities and logical analysis. But yeah, it's something I struggled with, still do a bit (it helps to have good guidance), but mostly I've come to terms with. It helps to approach it from the opposite direction - to ask what would a world with no problems achieve? It would be like a school where the kids spend all day in the playground. Fun for the kids at the time, but they're fucked when they graduate and want to go to Uni. Or even if there is no graduation, they just hang out in the playground every day, non-stop, never growing, never advancing?

Now that's not to be disrespectful of your belief system. But my belief system doesn't allow for sugar coating my opinions.

And I wouldn't want you to, I always appreciate (polite) honesty.

(dis be why I'm an atheist!)

Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt I stuck with it strongly for years because at the time it was the only worldview that made sense given my life experiences and the understanding of reality I had gained through my official education (if only Phil101 had taught me what the ancient Greek philosophers really believed). Luckily I had some experiences which radically altered that understanding when I investigated them, and that investigation and some experimentation lead me where I am today (albeit by a rather windy road).

You seem like someone who also appreciates honesty, so I'm going to be honest: I think that atheism possibly has the potential to be the most destructive major belief system (if you consider it a major belief system, or, if not, if it becomes one) short of the dogmatic branches of the Abrahamic religions. Besides the fact that it itself has many incredibly dogmatic elements fueled by the intellectual snobbery which is rampant in the movement (the irony being that most of them only became atheists because they had it spelt out to them by Dawkins or Hitchens in the first place - or because it's trendy), it's an incredibly isolating, separating, world shrinking, dehumanizing and depersonalizing belief system when taken to it's full extent.

This isn't an attack on you personally so please don't take it that way, I've enjoyed this exchange and you seem like a smart woman, it's just what's on my mind right now as a result of this discussion (and quite possibly the fatigue) so I'm just putting it out there. That's just how I experienced it and how I see it, and I know others experience the same and see the same, because there are constant attempts to address this by adopting the social support structure of religious service without the religious aspect or mixing in humanistic philosophies of different varieties, but it never quite seems to work, and I don't think it will work, because ultimately, the logical end conclusion of what I'll term hard atheism (not just the rejection of a personified God, but the complete rejection of all of the spiritual - dictionary definition - aspects of reality) seems to me to be a nihilistic society of deterministic meat and bone robots suffering from the dysfunction of believing they're conscious.

We aren't there yet because the momentum hasn't built up and, I believe, because many atheists, either consciously or subconsciously, refuse to take it to that logical conclusion or aren't as certain about their atheism as they claim. But I hope we never do get there, because I'm not sure that such a society would be a nicer place than the Medieval style theocracies men like Dawkins like to rip on, to be honest.

That said, given my own experiences, I can hardly blame anyone in particular, and I'm certainly not blaming you, for adopting that particular belief system. It emerged as a backlash to societal, political and theological currents which have been brewing for centuries, if not millennia, and is now almost an inevitability for those born and raised in certain circumstances. Cause and effect. I just hope it rides itself out, and given the increasing access to and interest in spiritual training material over the last century (and especially since the rise of the internet), as well as the manner in which science has been butting up against mysticism for about the same period of time, I'm fairly confident it will happen sooner or later.

Of course people like me (those who have an interest in science and spirituality, who approach their spirituality with a scientific mindset and who would like to see a merging of the two) have been saying that for the last century or so, so who knows? It'll be interesting either way. Let's just hope it's not interesting in the sense of the Chinese proverb.

but again thank you for the explanation.

Not a problem, it was fun (and laying out my views in these long posts is beneficial in deepening my own understanding, I feel).

[anunitu]

Re: When bad things happen

Always the bigger question looms...Why a tiny baby dies,and an OLD reprobate(Speaking personally) is pushing 68...What did the kid do to get that fate,while I a drinker and druggie and a bit more gets to be an old Man.?? Perhaps my living this long is my punishment for being who I was,and the kid gets out early without having to experience all the crappy stuff life hands you.

There also looms the question as to just what we are,simple flesh and blood that aspires to claim a soul,or a divine spirit confined to this flesh prison.??

perhaps none of the above is true,and we are just all naturally stoned and life is only a vivid fantasy......ponder that for a bit.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: When bad things happen

If one begins with the a priori assumption that "the universe is fair," one must expend a lot of chop logic in justifying why bad things happen to good people (i.e.: Why did she die in that accident with the drunk driver? She deserved it because, in her last life, she kicked a dog.)

If one begins with the a priori assumption the "the universe is biased," one can easily justify what looks like extraordinary good luck (i.e.: Why did that wastrel inherit $500,000,000 when he's never worked a day in his life? Because he is the beloved of God.)

If one reasons without resorting to a priori assumptions, basing one's reasoning on what is observable and can be demonstrated with real world facts, one is forced to arrive at the conclusion that "the universe is neither fair nor biased - it just is. (i.e.: Why did she die in that accident with the drunk driver? Because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Why did that wastrel inherit $500,000,000 when he's never worked a day in his life? Because he was fortunate enough to be born into the right family.)

It is human nature to seek meaning in a complicated and chaotic universe. Sometimes we find it, other times we invent it.

[anunitu]

Re: When bad things happen

If you spend all your time trying to understand life,generally you end up missing all the fun parts of life,because your head is tucked way to far up your Butt.

Just my take,your mileage may differ..If the above statement bothers you,it might just apply to you...

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: When bad things happen

Life, the universe, nature, everything is pretty much a changing, evolving, and organic thing. And just like other organic things ( such as ourselves), we need a way to get rid of the bad and useless substances that we take in. Maybe bad stuff that happens is sort of just the excrement created from simply existing. Sometimes it's no big deal and you just wash your hands, and others not even the strongest industrial sewage systems can handle it.

[thalassa]

Re: When bad things happen

Maybe our individual lives aren't as important as we'd like to think. Maybe we're each just a stitch in a huge, ongoing tapestry. Some stitches make up the light, some the dark. I dunno.

Cosmically, I don't think they are. I think the reason there are personal gods is because *we* need them to exist (whether its a "real" existence or not, which I think is irrelevent)...if we didn't seek them out (or percieve them to be seeking us out, and responding to that), they wouldn't be there.

Metaphorically, I do think we are each a stitch in a huge, ongoing tapestry--one that is continuously being woven and rewoven, and embellished. But...I also don't think that there is (to go with the metaphor) a (conscious, autonomous) Weaver of the fabric of the Universe--the Universe is just the physical bo. The bad stuff isn't brought on by gods or karma (Eastern or Western)...its brought on by Chaos (and by Chaos, I mean the Theory-in-action, not any related mythological being). When someone snags a thread somewhere, it ripples through the whole cloth...when someone rips a tear in the fabric, it leaves a hole until it is stitched back together or otherwise repaired. Personally, its not the cloth that is Divine, I believe it is the Making itself which is divine (perhaps i be deist sometimes)--and that Making is eternal, and sometimes the unfolding of it (the Weaving) is as a direct result of our action, and sometimes as a direct result of someone's action half-way around the world, and sometimes from things that were set in motion simply by the Universe being set into motion.

If we go back to the ebola example--the reason why babies die of ebola starts with the lack of regard the whole world holds for that part of the world and with the environmental/ecological and cultural practices of that region (the former exacerbated, if not caused by Western pressures and interestes over centuries), and (if you follow the trail), it starts with the Weaving of the fabric of the Universe...how molecules bond together, how life on this planet is formed, how viruses developed and evolved, how we (and our immune systems) developed and evoloved and how we migrated over several million years, and the areas that we inhabited, and the practices we engaged in with our environment. A baby dies of ebola not because of the baby or some idea of an eternal soul (I believe in a soul of sorts, but not like that), but because of the drunkard's walk--millions upon trillions of of "choices" (of coin flips) that go back eons, that have made conditions how they are, and how we have a choice to react to them. We won't ever get rid of ebola, but we can work to mitigate how it spreads, the damage it causes when it shows up, and (maybe) even how often it does. Its not fair to the baby, but its how it is.

Edit to add--what Corbin said (way more succinctly than I)

[Ophidia]

Re: When bad things happen

I don't ascribe to 'bad things' or 'good things'.

Stuff happens. You benefit from it or lose from it - and the majority of stuff we ascribe a good or bad value to doesn't actually affect us at all, except on an unpersonal level (like war in the Middle East making gas prices higher). Many of us try to justify the unfortunate events in our lives by calling them 'learning experiences', but when they happen it still harms us or makes us angry or feel foolish. Good experiences are rarely justified as 'learning experiences', even though a direct action may have led to a favorable outcome.

I'm generally not a risk-taker. 'Bad things' rarely happen to me as a result. I live a remarkably unremarkable life. When I was a teenager, I was a risk-taker, and I ended up in a lot of nasty situations because of it. I'm less of a risk-taker now because I know exactly how potentially dangerous some of my decisions were - but my risk-aversion isn't necessarily a good thing, either. I never learned to make balanced decisions, or how to properly assess risk, and I've got poor judgment, so all I do now is mostly try to stay out of harm's way.

[Aeran]

Re: When bad things happen

Many of us try to justify the unfortunate events in our lives by calling them 'learning experiences', but when they happen it still harms us or makes us angry or feel foolish. Good experiences are rarely justified as 'learning experiences', even though a direct action may have led to a favorable outcome.

Putting aside metaphysics (which is another issue entirely, as was discussed extensively), it isn't a question of justification, it's a personal choice on how to react. If a bad thing has happened, then it's happened, it's just a question of whether you take something educational from the experience and thereby at least have a chance of improving your life and/or preventing the bad thing from happening again, or whether you just try to put it behind you as quickly as possible to rid yourself of the negative emotions. It's a manner of obtaining an optimal outcome from a less than ideal situation.

And you're right about "good experiences," because people for the most part assume that goodness is somehow supposed to be the default state in which they should live, and that when a bad thing happens, it's a deviation from the expected norm. That isn't the case, the truth is we suffer many bad and enjoy many good experiences during our lives, some lives tip further towards one or the other, depending on choice and circumstance. But both can be learned from to tip the probabilities away from the bad and towards the good, if you make a conscious decision to do so.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: When bad things happen

If you spend all your time trying to understand life,generally you end up missing all the fun parts of life,because your head is tucked way to far up your Butt.

Just my take,your mileage may differ..If the above statement bothers you,it might just apply to you...

"The unexamined life is not worth living." Socrates

Its time for your exam, Anunitu. Bend over and cough.

- - - Updated - - -

Putting aside metaphysics (which is another issue entirely, as was discussed extensively), it isn't a question of justification, it's a personal choice on how to react. If a bad thing has happened, then it's happened, it's just a question of whether you take something educational from the experience and thereby at least have a chance of improving your life and/or preventing the bad thing from happening again, or whether you just try to put it behind you as quickly as possible to rid yourself of the negative emotions. It's a manner of obtaining an optimal outcome from a less than ideal situation.

I can get behind this 100%.

A person, if he/she has much in the wisdom department, will learn from experience. The School of Hard Knocks is one Hell of a teacher.

But there is a difference between saying "this happened so I could learn," and "this has happened. I will learn from it."

[Medusa]

Re: When bad things happen

You seem like someone who also appreciates honesty, so I'm going to be honest: I think that atheism possibly has the potential to be the most destructive major belief system (if you consider it a major belief system, or, if not, if it becomes one) short of the dogmatic branches of the Abrahamic religions. Besides the fact that it itself has many incredibly dogmatic elements fueled by the intellectual snobbery which is rampant in the movement (the irony being that most of them only became atheists because they had it spelt out to them by Dawkins or Hitchens in the first place - or because it's trendy), it's an incredibly isolating, separating, world shrinking, dehumanizing and depersonalizing belief system when taken to it's full extent.

I won't lie. I dislike a lot of atheists for this very reason and a few more.
1. Teh internet. It brings out the snobbery and ignorant in people.
2. A lot of people (and a hell of a lot of atheists) seem to think being an atheist comes with a list of beliefs and attitudes towards universe, religion etc etc.
3. Technically the only thing you can ascribe to an atheist is that they have no belief in deity. You cannot work out their beliefs in universe, in morals, in society, food habits, douchebagggery etc etc. Atheism (with the big A) has become a dogma unto itself. It means you are all yay science and boo backward religion! Yay I'm super smart and probably don't eat meat or wear the color blue for whatever reason. And all religious people are beneath me.
4. atheism means one thing and ONE thing only: No belief in deity.
5. I'm an atheist in my belief structure. But I'm a Satanist in my moral compass and how I navigate this world.
6. I've never read anything by Dawkins or Hitchins.

[anunitu]

Re: When bad things happen

Jotting notes as fast as I can...I just know there is going to be a surprise test on this stuff..and me still hung over from that bongathon last night....

[Ophidia]

Re: When bad things happen

But there is a difference between saying "this happened so I could learn," and "this has happened. I will learn from it."

That right there.