Charlie Hebdo

[iris]

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30721677

In case you haven't had your fill of terrible news from the world today. I think this goes here.
My thoughts are with the victims and their families. But one light in the dark is this: I'm proud to see people all over the world coming together against an attempt to shut us up.

[Medusa]

Re: Charlie Hebdo

I've been watching this on and off all day. It's incredibly sad. This is what happens when humans rule the planet. On a side note, just so we don't get off on a anti Islamic tangent (Which is happening all over the free world) One of the victims was a Muslim police officer. Terrorism hits ALL innocent people of ALL religions or belief. Such a sad sad day.

This will not have me wielding my pen to draw a naked prophet in protest though. Because I'm not a douche, before or after terrorism.

[iris]

Re: Charlie Hebdo

I've been watching this on and off all day. It's incredibly sad. This is what happens when humans rule the planet. On a side note, just so we don't get off on a anti Islamic tangent (Which is happening all over the free world) One of the victims was a Muslim police officer. Terrorism hits ALL innocent people of ALL religions or belief. Such a sad sad day.

This will not have me wielding my pen to draw a naked prophet in protest though. Because I'm not a douche, before or after terrorism.

It's sad that people go off On islam, I've seen that a lot on social media. it's the work of crazy people, not a religion or a whole group of innocents.

Drawing the prophet is silly, but none the less something you should be able to do without getting murdered for it...

[Sean R. R.]

Re: Charlie Hebdo

France is shocked. I am shocked.

But people are getting together and staying brave and strong. That's what counts. I will never feel fear in front of terrorists. If we fear, then they have won.

[Medusa]

Re: Charlie Hebdo

It's sad that people go off On islam, I've seen that a lot on social media. it's the work of crazy people, not a religion or a whole group of innocents.

Drawing the prophet is silly, but none the less something you should be able to do without getting murdered for it...

I agree 100%

These people don't realize it's 2015 and the world gets along for the most part.

[anunitu]

Re: Charlie Hebdo

Sad thing is when ever something like this happens,the right wing crazies have fodder to pander their anger and some people follow out of fear.

And this is what I am talking about.

Charlie Hebdo Tragedy Creates Momentum for German Right Wing

http://time.com/3659679/charlie-hebd...an-right-wing/

[Seeking a Religion]

Re: Charlie Hebdo

It's sad that people go off On islam, I've seen that a lot on social media. it's the work of crazy people, not a religion or a whole group of innocents.

Drawing the prophet is silly, but none the less something you should be able to do without getting murdered for it...

I know most everyone is crying 'freedom of speech and writing/drawing' but.....aren't we as a civil people supposed to be considerate of others and not incite People Groups to serious levels of anger ? What the Terrorists did was despicable, but post defaming comments and cartoon pictures of their highest held Prophet to be darn right nasty ? Where is the self control , tact, wisdom, of these Journalists and newspaper Cartoonists ? Why incite these Murderers in the first place, and, why continue to incite them by not backing down on the defamation even now ? I think one of the most abused freedoms is Freedom of Speech and im sure it wasn't orchestrated by the Founding Fathers of a Nation to be used haphazardly, to promote wrath , to incite violence, to defame ones personal beliefs, nor to be used to justify evils such as pornography and the like . To the Terrorists I say : ' Evil Murderers ' and to the French Newspaper I say : ' Shame on your insensitivity and enormous willful rebellion ' .

[thalassa]

Re: Charlie Hebdo

I'm offended by people that are offended.

[Seeking a Religion]

Re: Charlie Hebdo

I'm offended by people that are offended.

Aside from this, would you be offended to anger if a NewsPaper casted your Dear Ol Mom in a cartoon that grossly defamed her ? I think you would.

[iris]

Re: Charlie Hebdo

Aside from this, would you be offended to anger if a NewsPaper casted your Dear Ol Mom in a cartoon that grossly defamed her ? I think you would.

Her mother is not a public person. Any religious icon becomes the potential target of ridicule. That does not incite or in ANY way justify violence. It justifies a shrug, an angry letter, or a laugh. I like that you mention pornography as evil in this same post, that's funny.

[thalassa]

Re: Charlie Hebdo

Aside from this, would you be offended to anger if a NewsPaper casted your Dear Ol Mom in a cartoon that grossly defamed her ? I think you would.

If I were angry, that would be my fault, not the newspapers. I can't control what an outside agency does, I can only control my response to it. And as a reasonable human being, my response isn't to go shoot up the newspaper like a big crazy jerk...its to write an angry editorial and announce to all an sundry that the newspaper is wrong, and if their accusations are false, to sue the crap out of them for libel.

The newspaper (were my mother a public figure who would be the subject of media criticism) is entitled to offend me. And I am free to be offended. I am not free to shoot people because I'm so insecure in my beliefs that I can't handle offense with my big girl britches on.

[Yex]

Re: Charlie Hebdo

It is of course awful that people were murdered in cold blood, for any reason. Violence is never acceptable. That said, on the topic of free speech, having the right to say whatever you want doesn't mean that anything and everything should be said. Free speech doesn't give you a clean conscience to publish racist, reactionary material, nor to deliberately provoke a group of people to violence. If neonazis were publishing vile caricatures of Jews, and some Jews got angry and murdered them, would this be news? Would be people be saying "we are the KKK"? The murder would still be wrong, but no one would want to show solidarity with a group of people spewing hate towards a group of people. The only difference is that in this case the group of people (Muslims) who were the target of Charlie Hedbo's racism (which encompassed more than just showing depictions of Muhammed) are a group that we in the west don't have much trouble hating.

[thalassa]

Re: Charlie Hebdo

That said, on the topic of free speech, having the right to say whatever you want doesn't mean that anything and everything should be said. Free speech doesn't give you a clean conscience to publish racist, reactionary material, nor to deliberately provoke a group of people to violence.

But provided it doesn't deliberately call for violence, in the US, free speech does allow the publication of racist and reactionary material. And if that isn't the case elsewhere, then they have laws to handle that...but (in the context of being an American, racist speech is protected speech here. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't repercussions for shitty speech (and there should be), just that they aren't imposed by the government. The First Amendment is meant to create a free marketplace of ideas...that includes ideas that suck--and its up to the consumers of those ideas to decide their worth or not.

We have another thread that goes into this more (maybe I should merge them since this one is becoming a mirror of it...but that's beside the point), but its really no different than blaming the rape victim for being drunk or wearing skimpy clothes.

At the end of the day, one can't control what other people do, only their reaction to it. And when someone shoots a place up (or bombs it or sets it on fire), they lose credibility and support by reasonable people. Think about it--that paper sold out something like 10 times more than what it ever would have otherwise...its now a global household name, whatever racism they engaged in, the writers have been vindicated by the violence perpetuated against them. Those shooters lived down to the worst stereotype that any racist a*hole has constructed about them.

[Yex]

Re: Charlie Hebdo

But provided it doesn't deliberately call for violence, in the US, free speech does allow the publication of racist and reactionary material.

I'm aware that (in the US) people have the legal right to free speech. I even agree with this. People should be able to say whatever they want without being silenced by the state - or, say, by terrorists. As I said before, I think their murder is atrocious. What I'm arguing is that, while I can acknowledge the tragedy of the situation, I personally don't want to declare solidarity with racists.

its really no different than blaming the rape victim for being drunk or wearing skimpy clothes.

It is different, because while there's nothing wrong with "being drunk or wearing skimpy clothes"., there is something wrong with publishing racist propaganda. Does it merit violence? Of course not. It still doesn't make publishing such vile things ok.

This isn't a black and white issue. The terrorists who executed cartoonists and innocent bystanders committed an atrocity, and some of the people they killed were guilty of inciting hatred, both by and against Muslims. I think it's possible to acknowledge both of those realities.

[Medusa]

Re: Charlie Hebdo

I know most everyone is crying 'freedom of speech and writing/drawing' but.....aren't we as a civil people supposed to be considerate of others and not incite People Groups to serious levels of anger ? What the Terrorists did was despicable, but post defaming comments and cartoon pictures of their highest held Prophet to be darn right nasty ? Where is the self control , tact, wisdom, of these Journalists and newspaper Cartoonists ? Why incite these Murderers in the first place, and, why continue to incite them by not backing down on the defamation even now ? I think one of the most abused freedoms is Freedom of Speech and im sure it wasn't orchestrated by the Founding Fathers of a Nation to be used haphazardly, to promote wrath , to incite violence, to defame ones personal beliefs, nor to be used to justify evils such as pornography and the like . To the Terrorists I say : ' Evil Murderers ' and to the French Newspaper I say : ' Shame on your insensitivity and enormous willful rebellion ' .

Yeah but no one is gonna kill you over what you just said.