Hopefully they pass this...

[SleepingCompass]

Re: Hopefully they pass this...

I just feel so bad for that kid...

That experience is going to be with him for the rest of his life. I googled the story and found another article that adds this to the story:

The Rutherford Institute is representing a 4-year old Greene County student who, they say, was shackled after misbehaving in class.

A press release from the Rutherford Institute claims that in October 2014, when a 4-year-old Nathanael Greene Primary School student misbehaved in class, the school turned him over to the sheriff's office. It goes on to say deputies shackled the child, and forced him to talk to inmates as part of a scared straight approach.

The Rutherford Institute says the Greene County Sheriff's Department response was excessive, unwarranted, and unnecessarily traumatizing.

Greene County Sheriff Steve Smith is taking issue with the Rutherford Institute report. Smith says the public and the Greene County school system have received incorrect information regarding the October incident. Smith says the boy never talked to inmates and is defending his deputies over the incident.

I tend to believe the Rutherford Institute's claim that the deputies forced the kid to talk to inmates to scare him straight; I mean, why else take him to the Sheriff's office when they knew the mother was on the way to the school? He was already hand cuffed, couldn't he have waited in the principle's office or something?

The whole thing is just so ridiculous... he's 4! Even if he was an older child, it would still be wrong to treat him like a dangerous criminal. I worked one summer for a dog walking/pet sitting company when I was younger. I had to restrain one cat in particular to give him his medicine that he didn't want (a syringe of some kind of fluid down his throat). I was scratched and bit. I didn't call the cops on the cat and have him handcuffed. Dealing with potentially unruly kids is just part of the job.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Hopefully they pass this...

What people fail to realize when they treat kids this way is: they grow up, and they remember.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Hopefully they pass this...

I tend to believe the Rutherford Institute's claim that the deputies forced the kid to talk to inmates to scare him straight; I mean, why else take him to the Sheriff's office when they knew the mother was on the way to the school? He was already hand cuffed, couldn't he have waited in the principle's office or something?

The whole thing is just so ridiculous... he's 4! Even if he was an older child, it would still be wrong to treat him like a dangerous criminal. I worked one summer for a dog walking/pet sitting company when I was younger. I had to restrain one cat in particular to give him his medicine that he didn't want (a syringe of some kind of fluid down his throat). I was scratched and bit. I didn't call the cops on the cat and have him handcuffed. Dealing with potentially unruly kids is just part of the job.

Wow you compared a 4 year old to a dog and a teacher to a pet walker. No wonder the school system is screwed so hard or is that why society is screwed so badly?

No, a teacher is not there to deal with unruly children. The teacher is hired to teach a given subject or subjects. The discipline, ethics, behavior, morality, religion & Spirituality, etc is supposed to be taught at home not placed upon the teachers or school staff. All that becomes part of the job because so many parents use the system as a baby sitter instead of actually being parents and responsible for their children and how they behave.

But really an analogous comparison of a dog to a a child and a teacher to a pet walker. Shakes head and wanders away........

[thalassa]

Re: Hopefully they pass this...

Wow you compared a 4 year old to a dog and a teacher to a pet walker. No wonder the school system is screwed so hard or is that why society is screwed so badly?

No, a teacher is not there to deal with unruly children. The teacher is hired to teach a given subject or subjects. The discipline, ethics, behavior, morality, religion & Spirituality, etc is supposed to be taught at home not placed upon the teachers or school staff. All that becomes part of the job because so many parents use the system as a baby sitter instead of actually being parents and responsible for their children and how they behave.

But really an analogous comparison of a dog to a a child and a teacher to a pet walker. Shakes head and wanders away........

Nice use of logical fallacy.

Also, the middle part, which isn't devoted to being insulting, is incorrect. Part of teching is dealing with children, period. Unruly is their basic nature, at the age of 4, when they aren't being beaten into submission, institutionalised (the modern system's oft-abusive "remedy" to children with differences until the 80s), drugged with opiates (popular in the late 18 and early 1900's) or hitting the bottle @ every meal (don't drink the water, ya might get dysentary). If you aren't prepared to deal with unruly children, don't be a pre-k teacher.

And the idea that *oh, parents expect blah, blah, blah* you better bet I do. I expect that a teacher treat my child as a human being, flawed just as they are, and with age appropriate behaviors and abilities.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Hopefully they pass this...

Nice use of logical fallacy.

Also, the middle part, which isn't devoted to being insulting, is incorrect. Part of teching is dealing with children, period. Unruly is their basic nature, at the age of 4, when they aren't being beaten into submission, institutionalised (the modern system's oft-abusive "remedy" to children with differences until the 80s), drugged with opiates (popular in the late 18 and early 1900's) or hitting the bottle @ every meal (don't drink the water, ya might get dysentary). If you aren't prepared to deal with unruly children, don't be a pre-k teacher.

And the idea that *oh, parents expect blah, blah, blah* you better bet I do. I expect that a teacher treat my child as a human being, flawed just as they are, and with age appropriate behaviors and abilities.

Sorry being a teacher is about presenting a educational program and ensuring the student masters the program or is proficient enough to demonstrate the lesson academic and practical application of said teaching. Behavioral issues and such are assumed to be to a certain level of achievement and ability with age and grouping. It is not the teacher's responsibility to teach those things to your child. All I see is more of the let the school be the babysitter and raise ones children though the teachers and staff are not trained to do so nor should they be expected to do so. There are many private schools that are willing to accept ones money and ensure their teachers modify their daily behavior and expectations for the child who requires additional skills and manpower presences to allow for their situations.

Strange though when you put it that way and that parents might have to pay extra they suddenly get all offensive. The school is supposed to suck that all up and provide the extra resources without taxing the infrastructure of the community to do so. To provide the 90 percent of the time to the 1 or 2 percent of the student population who have issues of some sort that require a greater presence and interaction to accommodate their needs.

And no its not a logical fallacy to point out the no similarities between an animal and a child or a certified teacher and a dog walker.

Realistically its not the job of the teacher to treat your child as a human, its their job to present and instill the educational values that the school board and parents insist must be taught. To prepare your child to pass the required testing that determines achievement of the designated curriculum standards and demonstrate the ability to apply it. To make do with little and give more and more of themselves while the return is often nothing compared to what they put into it. But since you seem to concur with the animal / child correlation then they did just such. They incapacitated an animal and removed it from being harmful to the human's who were present just like they would with a dog who became threatening or attacking.

Sorry spent 9 years doing transportation and all for special needs students and school aides and such. Have a special needs grandson and granddaughter but don't expect the school to do the things I as a parent or grandparent should be doing for them. Nor do I expect the school systems to suddenly find all this money that is required to maintain various certifications, course requirements and mandatory training sessions, higher the additional personal that might only be needed in a limited capacity and extreme situations. Especially when I know many of those special needs classroom would love to have a parent volunteer to assist in the classroom but the parents are always so needed elsewhere and the first thing out of their mouths is how much will I get paid for assisting my own child.

[Shahaku]

Re: Hopefully they pass this...

Hm, I've seen bus drivers who've had the crap beat out of them by special needs students. Teacher's and aide's who had the crap beat out of them by special needs students. Even special needs students beaten by other special needs students. People forget special needs often runs from 2 to 3 years till 21 or 22 depending upon when the birthday falls for attending school programs. It's easy to say one size fits all yet the deciding factor is often the type of disability and the way each comes unglued. An ED student comes apart differently than a MD student for example. A low Autistic different than a high autistic. Yes a 4 year old low autistic student can beat the hell out of you as you try to hug them to calm them down.

The school system I worked for had lots of training and stuff for dealing with special needs students. Yet more often than not once the student melted down it went out the window and you didn't get them back that fast. But they could hurt you really quickly and then mom and dad got the sue button out for it was never their little Johnny or Susie at fault, even when it was on film

Wow you compared a 4 year old to a dog and a teacher to a pet walker. No wonder the school system is screwed so hard or is that why society is screwed so badly?

No, a teacher is not there to deal with unruly children. The teacher is hired to teach a given subject or subjects. The discipline, ethics, behavior, morality, religion & Spirituality, etc is supposed to be taught at home not placed upon the teachers or school staff. All that becomes part of the job because so many parents use the system as a baby sitter instead of actually being parents and responsible for their children and how they behave.

But really an analogous comparison of a dog to a a child and a teacher to a pet walker. Shakes head and wanders away........

Monso, swearing is not allowed on the forum and this needs to stop. If it had occurred only once I wouldn't have mentioned it, especially considering these aren't the "bad" swear words. However, being as we are a family friendly site, and this isn't an adult discussion, I'm going to ask that you tone it down.

Additionally, I'm not liking how heated this discussion is getting. I'm going to recommend everyone take a moment, before you post, and be very sure that you're temper has cooled. This isn't a debate. And even if it was, you still need to be respectful of each other and each others opinions, even if you don't agree. Having seen conversations like this deteriorate in the pass, I don't want to see this one go off the deep end.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Hopefully they pass this...

To set the record straight -

A teacher's job is 100% about managing diverse personality/motivation/discipline types.

A teacher has, in reality, close to 0 power over what students do/say. Keeping a class running requires people management skills. Anything a teacher gets out of a kid, from a moment of attention to a homework assignment, comes from management skills.

Don't imagine, though, that even the most highly skilled professional can deal with every problem with 100% effectiveness 100% of the time.

Whether a school is a place for teaching proper public behavior, well, that question is moot for me, since Mighigan law requires all schools to have elaborate, documented, labor intensive programs of Positive Behavior Interventions (PBI) - i.e.: teaching basic manners.

No, it isn't funded. It comes out of my paycheck.

[turningtides]

Re: Hopefully they pass this...

I've been working as a para-educator (or educational assistant) in special education classrooms since 2010, started as an on-call substitute para for regular assistants . Pre-K to secondary level (ages 14-21). I can only speak of special ed as I've seen it, and working with Washington state rules. To be honest, I think special ed is one of the most rewarding and meaningful jobs I've ever had. I plan on making it (either as para or teacher) as my career for the foreseeable future.

That said, I'm not surprised by the teacher's actions or the policeman's actions. The only thing I think was overkill was him driving the student to the police station. So long as the child is no longer a danger to himself or others in the vicinity, the matter should have stopped there and his mom could have picked him up at school.

Most of what Thalassa has said about special education schools and staff is true. Ideally, each adult working with special needs students should have the adequate training to work with this population. There should be enough classrooms, facilities and staff for every special needs child. Yet Monso_leedrea is right. The reality is, it's a crapshoot.

-There is not always enough adequately trained staff for these students. First, on-call substitute educational assistants (in my district called para-educator/paras) aren't required to be trained because it's often for one day. Substitutes can decide to turn down future calls for subs from that class or that school. So many substitutes can, have and will turn special ed calls down after the first day. I still get the half-shocked/relieved, "Oh, you came BACK" response from the teachers/staff when I visit certain schools. Yes, even for elementary/pre-K levels.

Second, there might be an oil/water relationship between the adult and the student. They could be substitutes that don't know the students' triggers. The student could have an aversion/fascination with certain characteristics of the adults around them; I was regularly told to wear my hair in a ponytail to avoid having hair ripped out, and wearing long-sleeves to lessen the possible scratching/biting. One classroom, admitted a secondary level, has a set of Kelvar gloves to wear when dealing with a specific individual.

This leads to my third point, that it can be hard to hire/retain good staff for special education. Some people have walked away from the job after being hired and actually working in the classroom. The specialized training only goes to hired, permanent staff because of the former.

-The classroom culture and the students: When we can, we use de-escalation where the student is, and escort them to a cool-down place only when the de-escalation techniques don't work. WA state law regards any form of touching the student as 'restraint'. Each instance must be documented, and it's a 'restrained escort' if I ever put my hand on the student's arm as we walked, even just to guide them. We are told to use 'least restraint' when possible. De-escalation for special ed students is not usually the same as de-escalation for regular ed students. Every teacher also has their own system of de-escalation and correction for their classroom.

-The job can be physically hazardous. If you read the application for a regular certified teacher, and one for special education, the special ed one may state "physical hazards". They mean it. Biting, kicking, drawing blood, throwing feces, ripping clothing, physical aggression is a GIVEN. Adults certainly can suck it up, but there's not many that would suck it up every day for teaching. One of my favorite classrooms I used to work in had the L & I forms right outside their door because certain students were so aggressive. The school district also has to pay for any injury that results from the classroom.

-Finally, every special ed teacher I have worked with says, NEVER underestimate students. It doesn't matter how old they are, if a student is determined to take their frustration out on you, they will. And as adults, we actually can't fight back. We can only pull out of the situation or protect ourselves (that is most of the specialized training) while other adults restrain the student, begin de-escalation or call for help.

Getting back to the article, we don't know what kind of relationship was between the student and the teacher that day. Did the child already come to school escalated from the ride there? Was the adult fully trained to handle the student? A student that is throwing things and hitting anyone around him is already highly escalated. Calling the police was likely the last resort, and by then the police did want he was trained to do; stop the student from harming others or himself. For the most part, special ed students should be getting the quality education and skills they need, same as any other student. How they react to setbacks, however, and responding to those times is not business as usual. As to how it ended...Expecting the police man to handle the situation well would be like asking the police man to jump in and fight a fire. He will, but not as well as a fire fighter.

[LunarHarvest]

Re: Hopefully they pass this...

One of the major things which is causing me to withhold judgement is the lack of information. In addition to this, the usage of terms such as 'shackled' instead of the commonplace 'handcuffed', as well as other items of note in the written words of the article, to me implies a significant bias on the part of the article writers.

Let us, however, review what is known, in summary:

• There was a student, which was further defined as a student with special needs.
• An incident occurred in which the student created a large disturbance, which was not able to be properly contained by the attempts of multiple school authorities, for reasons not explained.
• Law enforcement officials were called to assist with the pacifying of the student.
• The situation was considered severe enough for law enforcement officials to place handcuffs on the child, but not significant enough to the point where further force was required.
• Police escorted the child off of the school's grounds, to the law enforcement offices, for reasons not properly explained.

Overall, as stated before, there is a significant lacking in terms of information to clarify the context of the situation. I am severely hesitant to call into question the appropriateness of the actions of law enforcement officials unless the situation is clear, as often situations and actions of law enforcement can be over-exaggerated and subject to excessive scrutiny.

If the situation were considered severe enough to authorise the use of handcuffs to pacify the student then that should be granted as a possibility, but I do not see a reason why putting handcuffs on a four-year-old is, in of itself, something to warrant condemnation. The only thing I wonder is why the child was taken to the law enforcement offices?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Hopefully they pass this...

Wow!

Did we get a big influx of educational professionals or something?

Welcome, youse guys!

[SleepingCompass]

Re: Hopefully they pass this...

One of the major things which is causing me to withhold judgement is the lack of information. In addition to this, the usage of terms such as 'shackled' instead of the commonplace 'handcuffed', as well as other items of note in the written words of the article, to me implies a significant bias on the part of the article writers.

Let us, however, review what is known, in summary:

• There was a student, which was further defined as a student with special needs.
• An incident occurred in which the student created a large disturbance, which was not able to be properly contained by the attempts of multiple school authorities, for reasons not explained.
• Law enforcement officials were called to assist with the pacifying of the student.
• The situation was considered severe enough for law enforcement officials to place handcuffs on the child, but not significant enough to the point where further force was required.
• Police escorted the child off of the school's grounds, to the law enforcement offices, for reasons not properly explained.

Overall, as stated before, there is a significant lacking in terms of information to clarify the context of the situation. I am severely hesitant to call into question the appropriateness of the actions of law enforcement officials unless the situation is clear, as often situations and actions of law enforcement can be over-exaggerated and subject to excessive scrutiny.

If the situation were considered severe enough to authorise the use of handcuffs to pacify the student then that should be granted as a possibility, but I do not see a reason why putting handcuffs on a four-year-old is, in of itself, something to warrant condemnation. The only thing I wonder is why the child was taken to the law enforcement offices?

I wasn't really planning to talk anymore on this thread, but I did want to point out that they said the following in the article:

Last fall's controversial handcuffing and shackling of a Greene County pre-schooler...

The kid wasn't just handcuffed, he was also shackled, meaning they cuffed his ankles too.

I do agree with you though; I wish the article had shared more information. I couldn't find anywhere that said what condition the kid had exactly, other than that he had ADD or ADHD. I especially wish there had been more quotes from the educators and police involved, but it kind of seemed like to me that they were talking as little as possible to the press that they could get away with, which just makes me more suspicious of them. I read a couple of different articles besides this one, and it seemed like they were all pretty much the same across the board, information wise.

[LunarHarvest]

Re: Hopefully they pass this...

After some quick searching, I found the following information which, in my opinion, heightens the case of law enforcement officials in handcuffing and shackling the 4-year-old. Ultimately other methods of pacification failed, and they then chose to resort to handcuffing the child. After attempting to run away and physically assault law enforcement officials, he was then shackled, with the handcuffs being removed.

“The boy was out of control, basically, throwing his arms around and kicking– trying to kick the deputy, trying to run away, and the deputy felt that putting the handcuffs on him was for his safety as well as everybody else’s,” County Sheriff Steven Smith said."

“Once he got inside the office,” the sheriff added, “since he tried to run and kick the deputies, they took the handcuffs off him and put the leg shackles on him.”

-Rawstory

"According to Sheriff Steve Smith of Greene County, the boy was throwing toys, jumping off of furniture and onto students as well as hitting teachers in his pre-k classroom."

“Teachers tried to get him to calm down, to restrain him and they tried all of the quiet methods they use,” says Sheriff Smith. “He got out of control, kicking biting punching.”

“It's a boy that the deputy had dealt with before and he was usually able to talk to him, to calm him down, but this time he wasn’t successful,” says Sheriff Smith."

"Sheriff Smith says the deputy tried to talk to the boy and used a bear hug to get him to calm down, but that did not work.
“For the student's own safety and the safety of the other students and the teachers he had to put handcuffs on him to restrain him.”

"The boy was then taken to the sheriff's department where he was picked up by his mother."

“He was not arrested,” says Sheriff Smith. “Yes he was handcuffed, but he was being restrained for his own safety and for the safety of the rest of the kids.”

-Newsplex

"He reported the child threw blocks, climbed over desks, hit, scratched and kicked the principal and the director of special education. Smith said William Monroe Middle School Resource Officer Jason Tooley was summoned and the student was handcuffed."

"Smith said that during October’s and prior incidents, Tooley had used a “bear hug” to try to calm down the child. That didn’t work during the latter incident, requiring him to take measures to protect not only the child but other students and staff, Smith said."

-Roanoke

It sounds to me that it wasn't the first resort like many of the initial reports seem to claim, but like most stories of 'police brutality' it is a case of both overreaction and unnecessary scrutinisation combined with heavy anti-law enforcement sentiment, at least that is my perspective and experience on the matter, of which I am admittedly not an expert.

The child was seemingly handcuffed because other methods had failed, and that he had proven himself to be a threat to himself and those around him. Thus, handcuffing and shackling were in order and can be considered a proper response on behalf of law enforcement officials.

Regardless, most of what we have to work on leaves much to speculation, and this means that the full picture may never be fully revealed. That being said, I see no real reasons to draw criticism or condemnation at law enforcement officials or schooling authorities. This is only my opinion on the matter though.

[thalassa]

Re: Hopefully they pass this...

The child was seemingly handcuffed because other methods had failed, and that he had proven himself to be a threat to himself and those around him. Thus, handcuffing and shackling were in order and can be considered a proper response on behalf of law enforcement officials.

Regardless, most of what we have to work on leaves much to speculation, and this means that the full picture may never be fully revealed. That being said, I see no real reasons to draw criticism or condemnation at law enforcement officials or schooling authorities. This is only my opinion on the matter though.

If the child had been 14, I would likely agree with you. Heck, even if the child was 9 or 10, I might still agree with you. Although, I can tell you that this response doesn't fix anything.

But a 4 year old, no.

Since this is such an interesting debate, I asked someone who would know. Sharkbait's pre-k teacher**, in the state of Virginia, taught a child (my child) with ADHD in a regular public school pre-k classroom. Mr. M says (paraphrased slightly) this: In my classroom, I sent the tone and behavior of my students and my job is to make sure this never happens by not letting it ramp up to that point.

This isn't how you deal with a preschooler. If a behavioral issue gets to the point where a 4 year old gets hauled away in a squad car and/or handcuffed and shackled for a meltdown (or even for a temper tantrum), every adult involved has failed to do their job. I don't care if this is your first resort or the 50th...if this level of escalation is the response to a meltdown, they have failed this child. The psychological message that this school has sent to a 4 year old for the rest of his life is inexcusable. Letting a situation get to this point is a failure of the teacher, the administration, and the police officer involved, regardless of whether or not they took technically legal action (since there are no state or federal regulations, its legal), and whether or not it worked out for the moment. Because they might have taken care of an immediate percieved problem, but in the long run, they've created an even larger one, and become part of a nation-wide problem.


With that being said, the point of this wasn't just to debate the actions of the school and police, so much as it was to comment on the idea that there aren't state regulations or policies (in Virginia) and there are no federal regulations on the matter or restraining and secluding students (heck, even prisoners get that much)...

http://www.gao.gov/htext/d09719t.html

Its an intersting read...it also goes through a number of case studies as well as the state laws and regulations as of 2009

(part 1)

[thalassa]

Re: Hopefully they pass this...

(part 2, since I broke the carachter limit)

http://www.help.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Crimmins.pdf (I recommend reading the whole thing)

other testimony from the same hearing: http://www.help.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/George.pdf , (parent testimony) http://www.help.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Jackson5.pdf , http://www.help.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Pitonyak1.pdf

And, from the 2014 Senate Staff Report (for the same committee as above):

http://www.help.senate.gov/imo/media...l%20Report.pdf (the case studies and examples were particularly illuminating...)

*BTW, its all ADHD per the DSM-V (though not the ICD9 code). ADD is a type of ADHD. ADHD is divided into 4 types--hyperactive type, inattentive type (what they used to call ADD, and still might, if they aren't using the current terminology), combined type (having enough traits of both), and Other Specified or Unspecified (in which the minimum number of ADHD traits may not be met but there is clinical impairment enough that that the child is still diagnosed with ADHD). Additionally, many kids with ADHD have anxiety problems, including OCD, and many of them have sensory processing issues, whether or not they are clinically defined as having sensory processing disorder. Other issues that often show up with ADHD include ODD, CD, sleep disorders, and depression. Also, sometimes ADHD presents with autism spectrum disorders.

**And yes, as the parent of a little boy with ADHD in the Virginia school system I am completely biased. But, when it comes to dealing with a preschooler with ADHD, according to the best and latest knowledge we have about behavior and cognition, I've also had to become as much of an expert as possible on my child's condition. There are lots of problems when it comes to schools--mostly problems of funding (which I am more than happy to have my taxes increase to pay for) for proper training, staffing, etc, but this isn't about that. This is about whether or not children deserve legal consideration at least as good as that which prisoners recieve. Although, I'd rather see system wide-changes (that have been shown to work).

***I'm pretty sure this is the Montgomery County school system--its not a state-wide thing