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How do we reconcile a wrathful God of the OT to a loving, benevolent God currently ?

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    How do we reconcile a wrathful God of the OT to a loving, benevolent God currently ?

    Im reading the Bible and considering Christianity. In the OT, we see that God took infants and children in large numbers ; why did he and why can we be assured he is the loving, kind, benevolent God he is today ? If you are unsure, perhaps you could ask your Pastor this question as its rather disturbing to me and id genuinely like to know the answer. Thanks.

    #2
    Re: How do we reconcile a wrathful God of the OT to a loving, benevolent God current

    Because the personification of the Christian god (like all deities) is a construct of culture. Meaning as we evolved, so did it.
    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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      #3
      Re: How do we reconcile a wrathful God of the OT to a loving, benevolent God current

      Originally posted by thalassa View Post
      Because the personification of the Christian god (like all deities) is a construct of culture. Meaning as we evolved, so did it.
      It could be that our personification of God changed over time, but the Creator of the Universe himself being timeless and infinite didn't change ; but I do suspect there is a cogent explanation for what he chose to do in the OT and it will require a scholarly person to perhaps enlighten us.

      Do you believe in the macro-evolution of Man , or, are you referring to his sociological evolution when you say he 'evolved' ?

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        #4
        Re: How do we reconcile a wrathful God of the OT to a loving, benevolent God current

        Originally posted by Seeking a Religion View Post
        It could be that our personification of God changed over time, but the Creator of the Universe himself being timeless and infinite didn't change ; but I do suspect there is a cogent explanation for what he chose to do in the OT and it will require a scholarly person to perhaps enlighten us.

        Do you believe in the macro-evolution of Man , or, are you referring to his sociological evolution when you say he 'evolved' ?
        First of all, I don't believe in a creator of the universe.

        Second of all, you ought to read Karen Armstrong's History of God because I suspect that a) few people here care enough about this topic to be bothered and b) those individuals that might be bothered have better ways to spend their time that to regurgitate the couple dozen texts they've bothered to read on the subject for their own intellectual curiosity when you can find said same information in a couple hundred books with a myriad of different opinions on the matter.

        Third of all, I don't "believe" in either the biological Theory of Evolution or the evolution of human culture. Both are observable, measurable, and occurring whether I believe in them or not.
        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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          #5
          Re: How do we reconcile a wrathful God of the OT to a loving, benevolent God current

          There is a theory that deities are cultural concepts and not actual beings, so evolve with the culture they exist in. There is a related theory that deities are eregoric or thoughtform entities that form as a result of the belief humanity has in them, in which case if beliefs change then the deity could also change. With either reasoning as society gradually changes deity also changes to match the society. It's important to remember the God of the old testament is the product of a relatively small tribal culture. Christianity is extremely different being a universal religion that draws heavily from other faiths such as Zoroastrianism. The shift from tribal to universal religion alone is enough to account for many changes between them. A god of justice is useful for giving one resolve to face enemies. A god of love is ideal for gathering converts and creating peace (well in theory).
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            #6
            Re: How do we reconcile a wrathful God of the OT to a loving, benevolent God current

            Originally posted by Seeking a Religion View Post
            Im reading the Bible and considering Christianity. In the OT, we see that God took infants and children in large numbers ; why did he and why can we be assured he is the loving, kind, benevolent God he is today ? If you are unsure, perhaps you could ask your Pastor this question as its rather disturbing to me and id genuinely like to know the answer. Thanks.
            You'd be better off asking a pastor or theologist, but you have to understand that the two books of the Bible are very different things, written over a very long time period (the accepted book of the New Testament was written 95 years after Jesus's death). It also had upwards of 40 different authors. When you have that many different people, you're going to get different viewpoints.

            If you're considering Christianity, I would say that the fact that Yahweh sending his one and only son for the benefit of all mankind may have changed him and his viewpoints. Even the decision was a change in viewpoints. When you transition from one religion to another (from Judaism to Christianity), the attitudes and beliefs are going to change too. But God loves you isn't a conception unique to Christianity; it says as much in the Old Testament (e.g., "For I, the Lord your God, hold your right hand; it is I who say to you, “Fear not, I am the one who helps you.”. Isaiah 41:13).

            As to how you justify that, most pantheons have gods that have done awful things. I don't see how the Abrahamic religions are different in this.

            - - - Updated - - -

            That should be the LAST accepted book of the New Testament. Stupid typos.
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              #7
              Re: How do we reconcile a wrathful God of the OT to a loving, benevolent God current

              Different ghost writers I'm guessing.
              Satan is my spirit animal

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                #8
                Re: How do we reconcile a wrathful God of the OT to a loving, benevolent God current

                Originally posted by Seeking a Religion View Post
                It could be that our personification of God changed over time, but the Creator of the Universe himself being timeless and infinite didn't change ; but I do suspect there is a cogent explanation for what he chose to do in the OT and it will require a scholarly person to perhaps enlighten us.
                My Christian co-worker studied theology at uni and her answer is pretty much this:

                Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                Because the personification of the Christian god (like all deities) is a construct of culture. Meaning as we evolved, so did it.
                Minus the 'all deities' part, because she's a monotheist. Not sure how much more 'scholarly' you get than studying Christian theology at university (except maybe teaching it). It's been a while since I had this particular conversation with her, but from memory my co-worker was also of the opinion that her Divine Creator was of an infinite and unknowable nature, and therefore our personification of it was imperfect because it is impossible to know and adequately represent the perfect nature of her God. Ergo the differences displayed between OT YHVH and NT God are predictable and understandable reflections of the imperfection of the mortal human perception of an unknowable Divine being.

                Originally posted by Seeking a Religion View Post
                Im reading the Bible and considering Christianity. In the OT, we see that God took infants and children in large numbers ; why did he and why can we be assured he is the loving, kind, benevolent God he is today ? If you are unsure, perhaps you could ask your Pastor this question as its rather disturbing to me and id genuinely like to know the answer. Thanks.
                Have you read the New Testament yet? YHVH is not all happy love and fluffy bunnies in the NT. Jesus is a pretty accepting, loving kinda guy, but there is still some allusion to YHVH's darker nature in there. It's not at all as simple as OT = mean and vengeful and NT = kind and squishy.

                And if you really want my personal, ex-Catholic polytheist opinion... I think that Jesus and the NT were a (largely successful) PR stunt put forth by YHVH in order to snare a new demographic of followers. YHVH is a bit of an experimenter... some have tanked and some have been successful. The fact that he hasn't committed any recent large scale genocide against his followers leads me to believe that he hasn't decided about the outcome of Christianity yet. Either that or he gave up on creating a utopian society and has moved on to something else instead.

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                  #9
                  Re: How do we reconcile a wrathful God of the OT to a loving, benevolent God current

                  Sorry to jump i here,but this is kinda starting to sound like a conversation I once was in with a bunch of stoners...Pass the dubi from the left hand side....Nature of God(Or Gods) and all that..
                  MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

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                    #10
                    Re: How do we reconcile a wrathful God of the OT to a loving, benevolent God current

                    SaR, hello I asked myself the same question and it totally revolutionised my faith. I see the Bible in much the same way that Thalassa and Rae'ya replied with. I see the Bible as a journal of one culture's interpretation of their world through their religious lense. We can never really understand properly as we comprehend texts differently to the way the readership at the time would have. We are not privy to the same assumed knowledge.
                    However, if you're up for it, can you make a list of the verses you mean in particular and let's have a look?

                    - - - Updated - - -

                    pm them to me and later we can summarise here.

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                      #11
                      Re: How do we reconcile a wrathful God of the OT to a loving, benevolent God current

                      Originally posted by Seeking a Religion View Post
                      Im reading the Bible and considering Christianity. In the OT, we see that God took infants and children in large numbers ; why did he and why can we be assured he is the loving, kind, benevolent God he is today ? If you are unsure, perhaps you could ask your Pastor this question as its rather disturbing to me and id genuinely like to know the answer. Thanks.
                      I recall there is a passage in the Hebrew Bible that states the God of Israel does not change. If he were to change his perspective from nationalism and law to universalism and grace then he would contradict himself.

                      Have you ever heard of Marcionism? Within the first two or three centuries of Christianity it was one Marcion of Sinope who divorced the God revealed in Jesus of Nazareth from the God of Moses. He even created the first New Testament canon. It contained one Gospel and 10, I recall, epistles of the great Apostle Paul.

                      Marcion's argument was that the Mosaic God is obviously not the Father God revealed by Jesus. Moreover he taught a dualism of the spiritual and the material. He is thought of as a type of Gnostic because of his dualism, but from what I understand he did not have any secret teachings available to a select few. His message was a universal one.

                      If Marcionism is ever appealing I'd say look into it and look for the reconstructed versions of the canonical Scriptures that were in Marcion's Bible. Some say his Gospel and epistles were the originals. A modern-day Marcionite might even "fix" Pauline texts that we no longer have the Marcionite versions of.

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                        #12
                        Re: How do we reconcile a wrathful God of the OT to a loving, benevolent God current

                        Originally posted by Vel View Post
                        I recall there is a passage in the Hebrew Bible that states the God of Israel does not change. If he were to change his perspective from nationalism and law to universalism and grace then he would contradict himself.

                        Have you ever heard of Marcionism? Within the first two or three centuries of Christianity it was one Marcion of Sinope who divorced the God revealed in Jesus of Nazareth from the God of Moses. He even created the first New Testament canon. It contained one Gospel and 10, I recall, epistles of the great Apostle Paul.

                        Marcion's argument was that the Mosaic God is obviously not the Father God revealed by Jesus. Moreover he taught a dualism of the spiritual and the material. He is thought of as a type of Gnostic because of his dualism, but from what I understand he did not have any secret teachings available to a select few. His message was a universal one.

                        If Marcionism is ever appealing I'd say look into it and look for the reconstructed versions of the canonical Scriptures that were in Marcion's Bible. Some say his Gospel and epistles were the originals. A modern-day Marcionite might even "fix" Pauline texts that we no longer have the Marcionite versions of.
                        Yes, I too believe that God is changeless . What im starting to conclude is that Gods infinite attributes not only include love, righteousness, purity, and benevolence......but also wrath, jealousy, justice, and other attributes that we sometimes don't think of in him. I believe its accurate to conclude that whatever God chooses to do in human history, it is done applying his full range of personal attributes and for our ultimate good even if we don't understand his strategy and motives.

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