Police hold 11 yo girl @ gunpoint in own home

[thalassa]

http://latest.com/2015/02/florida-cops-hold-11-year-old-girl-gunpoint-security-alarm-accidentally-goes-off/

[habbalah]

Re: Police hold 11 yo girl @ gunpoint in own home

In what rational person's mind do you come to a home where a burglar alarm going off, see a child, and immediately hold her at gunpoint instead of thinking 1) she accidentally set the alarm off or 2) someone else is in the house and she's in trouble?! Someone needs at least a suspension over this.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Police hold 11 yo girl @ gunpoint in own home

Oh anytime you enter a residence where an alarm suggests something is wrong. Guess to many forget just how often minors do use weapons and kill or maybe that just happens in the ghettos and cities. Sorry every family I am aware of that has an alarm system the kids know the cut off codes and such and how long they have to clear them. Especially the time frame allotted to turn them off or notify the correct people.

That said I do agree the conditions explained in the article do suggest they went overboard.

[LunarHarvest]

Re: Police hold 11 yo girl @ gunpoint in own home

Still really not seeing an issue, and especially not seeing how this could be an instance of "police brutality".

The law enforcement officials were responding to an alarm stating that there was an intruder on the property, which they went to investigate without knowledge of the appearance or nature of the intruder, or how many there would be. Being a minor does not excuse any individual of being a suspect in this case. There is nothing stated that would indicate to me that these law enforcement officials were using an disproportionate use of force, and they were simply doing their job by detaining a suspect.

I will be quite upset if charges are made against these officers who were only trying to protect the property of the household. I just wish that we can get a link to the official report. At least in my observation, news reports tend to overwhelmingly leave out information with provides proper context to the actions of law enforcement officials.

[Medusa]

Re: Police hold 11 yo girl @ gunpoint in own home

Still really not seeing an issue, and especially not seeing how this could be an instance of "police brutality".

The law enforcement officials were responding to an alarm stating that there was an intruder on the property, which they went to investigate without knowledge of the appearance or nature of the intruder, or how many there would be. Being a minor does not excuse any individual of being a suspect in this case. There is nothing stated that would indicate to me that these law enforcement officials were using an disproportionate use of force, and they were simply doing their job by detaining a suspect.

I will be quite upset if charges are made against these officers who were only trying to protect the property of the household. I just wish that we can get a link to the official report. At least in my observation, news reports tend to overwhelmingly leave out information with provides proper context to the actions of law enforcement officials.

I actually agree. You come into a home thinking something is going on because of an alarm. You come upon a kid or an adult. You take them to the floor and hold them there so they are either caught or safe. You don't know going into it if the kid is going to run to daddy and daddy is crazy and all stabby stabby. You don't know if some intruder has another person in the house in a hostage situation. I've seen enough Criminal Minds episodes to know when you walk into a house, you know nothing. I'm ok with the description of the events.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Police hold 11 yo girl @ gunpoint in own home

Oh anytime you enter a residence where an alarm suggests something is wrong. Guess to many forget just how often minors do use weapons and kill or maybe that just happens in the ghettos and cities. Sorry every family I am aware of that has an alarm system the kids know the cut off codes and such and how long they have to clear them. Especially the time frame allotted to turn them off or notify the correct people.

That said I do agree the conditions explained in the article do suggest they went overboard.

If the girl actually set off the alarm then yes she should have shut it down. We don't know what set off the alarm. We know the police found the girl watching TV in her bedroom and the father down the hall. How the alarm was tripped is left open.

That said, I don't mind entering with guns drawn if there's a chance of finding a threat in the house. I'm not overly thrilled with how they handled the kid and I'm less thrilled that apparently they fail at announcing their presence. Calling out "Police" on entering the house brings the father to them and skips this whole scenario. They are not infantry. They do not get the luxury behaving as a military force in hostile terrain. Announcing that law enforcement is present gives civilians a chance to holster any weapons they might draw when someone "lets themselves onto" private property and thereby decrease the odds of unnecessary police firefights.

[LunarHarvest]

Re: Police hold 11 yo girl @ gunpoint in own home

I actually agree. You come into a home thinking something is going on because of an alarm. You come upon a kid or an adult. You take them to the floor and hold them there so they are either caught or safe. You don't know going into it if the kid is going to run to daddy and daddy is crazy and all stabby stabby. You don't know if some intruder has another person in the house in a hostage situation. I've seen enough Criminal Minds episodes to know when you walk into a house, you know nothing. I'm ok with the description of the events.

That being said, I would also bring up the probability, at least in the mindset of the law enforcement, which that child might have been an intruder themselves. Children are not unknown as being involved in criminal activity. If that minor had been the intruder, and law enforcement officials had not detained her on basis of her age, then she could have simply grabbed smaller and easier to hide valuables (jewellery, etcetera), and escaped with them.

Ironically enough, if this had been the situation, then the residents would be in an uproar over the fact that the law enforcement officials had NOT detained the minor. :XP:

[thalassa]

Re: Police hold 11 yo girl @ gunpoint in own home

I was 24 and home on leave visiting my parents. I set off the alarm. The cops showed up. They had weapons out when they came in the home (I left the garage door open trying to get to the alarm), but I didn't get put on the ground and I didn't have a gun shoved in my face---I got asked who I was and why I was there, and then they put their weapons away. They called my mom to verify I had permission to be there, and they left.

These guys overreacted.

Then again, I don't expect a cop that falls asleep on duty to be a good cop.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Police hold 11 yo girl @ gunpoint in own home

If the girl actually set off the alarm then yes she should have shut it down. We don't know what set off the alarm. We know the police found the girl watching TV in her bedroom and the father down the hall. How the alarm was tripped is left open.

That said, I don't mind entering with guns drawn if there's a chance of finding a threat in the house. I'm not overly thrilled with how they handled the kid and I'm less thrilled that apparently they fail at announcing their presence. Calling out "Police" on entering the house brings the father to them and skips this whole scenario. They are not infantry. They do not get the luxury behaving as a military force in hostile terrain. Announcing that law enforcement is present gives civilians a chance to holster any weapons they might draw when someone "lets themselves onto" private property and thereby decrease the odds of unnecessary police firefights.

The problem is its a TV report of an incident. So its aligned towards what ever ratings and position the studio holds. Doesn't even say the father was home only that they went down to a room where the Father stayed. Doesn't even address the requirements or conditions that would need to have been initiated in order to set the alarm off, which usually is screwing with an alarmed door or window. Heck didn't even say which alarmed entrance was activated to cause the alarm to go off which could be a telling clue in and off itself. Then there is the historical precedence of the area and if it has been having a string of break-ins and such which place them on an even higher alert status in responding to the alarm. Little facts omitted from the article in an effort to gain sympathy and support for the article in my opinion.

We're simply led to believe the 11 year old was home alone and doing nothing but watching TV in bed. Then the big bad police bust in and take inappropriate actions to detain while continuing to search the residence.

The problem calling out its the "Police" is you open up resistance or you start a chase scene as they flee out the back door or such. It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.

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I was 24 and home on leave visiting my parents. I set off the alarm. The cops showed up. They had weapons out when they came in the home (I left the garage door open trying to get to the alarm), but I didn't get put on the ground and I didn't have a gun shoved in my face---I got asked who I was and why I was there, and then they put their weapons away. They called my mom to verify I had permission to be there, and they left.

These guys overreacted.

Then again, I don't expect a cop that falls asleep on duty to be a good cop.

Just presumption on my part but I'm assuming your situation occurred during the daylight hours and somewhat outside. The article seems to imply this occurred in the evening given the child was home alone and in bed watching TV. Granted presumption on my part but one would place that assumption as closer to truth given the circumstances described IMO. Different threats levels and conditions to be experienced, especially if the person was not encountered until after they had gained entrance and where actually searching to residence.

[thalassa]

Re: Police hold 11 yo girl @ gunpoint in own home

Just want to point out that some alarms like that are actually silent--my parent's system can be set up that way...it is entirely possible that a kid at home watching TV had no clue it went off, and therefore no reason to be trying to deactivate it.

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Just presumption on my part but I'm assuming your situation occurred during the daylight hours and somewhat outside. The article seems to imply this occurred in the evening given the child was home alone and in bed watching TV. Granted presumption on my part but one would place that assumption as closer to truth given the circumstances described IMO. Different threats levels and conditions to be experienced, especially if the person was not encountered until after they had gained entrance and where actually searching to residence.

Well, it was after 4 pm in the winter, so it was getting dark (I was on my phone or I would have explained more...using my phone to post annoys the crud out of me so I tend to keep it short). My parents had neglected to inform me that they had to change the code from the last time I was home because my six year old brother had given the neighbor the code so he could come play (he figured it out from sheer 6 yo observation)...the neighbor's mom informed my parents that they might want to change their code after that. I was in the area between the garage (I left the door open, as I said) and the dining area (where the alarm was located, that I was trying to figure out how to turn off and call my mom at the same time).

Normally, they have the sort of alarm that the cops call you before they send someone, but (not sure why) this didn't happen this time...I always figured they were already in the neighborhood. Either way, they scared the crud out of me... I have no idea if they announced themselves or not, because 1) the alarm was going off, and 2) my mom's dogs are LOUD, and 3) I was trying to get the department secretary where my mom works to forward me to the area she was working at.

Either way, without assuming massive assumptions on either end and taking it as it reads...an 11 year old in her room watching TV hardly seems like they need to be thrown down to the ground with a gun to their head. I can see having their gun out, but really, that could have been handled so much better (and probably would have by cops with a better track record). Actually, when cases like this come up, I generally call my MIL and ask here what she thinks as a (recently) retired detective.

[habbalah]

Re: Police hold 11 yo girl @ gunpoint in own home

Yes, kids can commit burglary. I'm not arguing that. I still think that pushing an 11-year-old to the ground and physically pinning her there so she wouldn't move is not reasonable or warranted. If you have reason to suspect her, fine. Put cuffs on her and leave her with an officer. Put her in the back of a police car. Physical force like that is not necessary on a non-violent child.

[LunarHarvest]

Re: Police hold 11 yo girl @ gunpoint in own home

Yes, kids can commit burglary. I'm not arguing that. I still think that pushing an 11-year-old to the ground and physically pinning her there so she wouldn't move is not reasonable or warranted. If you have reason to suspect her, fine. Put cuffs on her and leave her with an officer. Put her in the back of a police car. Physical force like that is not necessary on a non-violent child.

Regardless of our opinion on the matter their actions are legal.

Title XLVI: Chapter 776.07 - Use of Force to Prevent Escape (found here)
(1) A law enforcement officer or other person who has an arrested person in his or her custody is justified in the use of any force which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary to prevent the escape of the arrested person from custody.

As read in the story article, the law enforcement officials were stated to have 'pushed' the child to the ground, with no clarification on the method used by law enforcement officials. That being said, a controlled push guiding the suspect to the ground is much more likely than simply pushing. Furthermore, the officers did not exercise excessive force in restraining the minor. They did not, in any manner physically assault her, and held her in place whilst questioning her briefly, although a different report simply states that she remained on her knees unrestrained.

As far as I can tell, according to Florida state laws regarding police procedures the law enforcement officials are guilty of no wrongdoing.

[habbalah]

Re: Police hold 11 yo girl @ gunpoint in own home

Actually, that's not correct. The use of force only applies to someone who is arrested and in in their custody. The girl in this story was not under arrest. She was, as you stated, pushed and then pinned to be questioned while the officers searched the house. Maybe arguing semantics, but the letter of the law does not allow the use of force in this incident.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Police hold 11 yo girl @ gunpoint in own home

If you're gonna quote Florida Law, pick a law that is not dealing with a subject under arrest or show me where the kid was arrested. Laws are specific for a reason.

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Ninja'd.......

[LunarHarvest]

Re: Police hold 11 yo girl @ gunpoint in own home

Unfortunately I was unable to find any statutes or laws regarding the detaining of suspects, or of minors, which could be applied to this incident. That being said, I find it highly doubtful given all circumstances that the officers will be found guilty of any wrongdoing.

Part of this has to do with the context which intruders are automatically believed to be in terms of their nature of the suspect. This is highlighted here:

Source

Regardless of the age of the girl, which shouldn't matter since plenty of theft and violence is done by minors, she was a suspect, and thus was to be assumed to be present in the building for some reason be it either force, violence, or theft. There was nothing to indicate that the girl was violently treated by the law enforcement officers, and the officers did not "harass" her longer to establish that she was not involved in illegal behaviours according the the reports. The use of force was not disproportionate to the situation.

From the Florida Basic Recruit Training Program, this is how the evaluation of the use of force in relation to the suspect is evaluated by the courts following the law enforcement report on the instance.

"The U.S. Supreme Court said in Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989), that the reasonableness of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of how a reasonable officer on the scene would respond, rather than from the 20/20 perspective of hindsight. To determine if an officer’s actions were objectively reasonable, the courts look at the facts and circumstances the officer knew when the incident occurred. Courts recognize that criminal justice officers must make split-second judgments about the amount of force needed in a particular situation under circumstances that are tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving."
(Source p199 – Ojective Reasonableness)

Given the above I find it highly unlikely that they will be found deserving of punishment. The use of force was not only not disproportionate, but also was not unwarranted due to the automatic conclusions made about intruders by law enforcement officers, by default.