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    #31
    Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

    Originally posted by thalassa View Post
    How do you know zinc shows no evidence of causing environmental harm to coral reefs? Where is the data? Where are the studies?

    We have plenty of evidence that zinc can be and is harmful to people and to the rest of the environment. Because the dose makes the poison.



    Now, is all this zinc coming from sunscreen in wastewater? Probably not. Zinc is something that *should* be removed during the process of treating it. But people go to the beach that waterproof sunscreen has to go somewhere. Taken by itself, zinc in sunscreen is probably extremely negligible in the environment. But, its a contributory affect---its one more route for zinc to enter an environment in a way that it was not occuring without human involvement (by far, the problem from zinc comes from mining and smelting). Zinc in particular is a fish neurotoxin (when the dose is right) and is taken up readily in aquatic environments.


    If one has to choose between zinc and BP-2, is zinc less damaging to a very specific part of the environement? Probably. But we don't know that until its been studied.

    I'm not trying to pick on you here. I'm trying to say that there are always, always, always tradeoffs. Nothing is safe. Safety is a relative term. Harm is a relative term. We need better data (which is expensive) to make the decision that mitigate harm as much as possible and ensure safety--for everyone, human and non--as much as possible. But the science we use to make those decisions needs to be sound. I'm a firm believer in the precautionary principle. But once again, it comes down to dose.
    Gotcha. Also, I didn't think you were trying to pick on me. I really appreciate the time you've taken to explain the data better. Stuff like that is really helpful for those of us who don't always totally understand the science and have to rely on the layman's terms the press presents (which aren't always correct).

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      #32
      Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

      I wonder how much zinc has been added to the oceans and lakes from "sacrificial" zincs on the hulls of boats and ships ???
      I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them ... John Bernard Books


      Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official; "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done."

      The Chief nodded in agreement.

      The official continued; "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

      The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied.. "When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine Man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex."

      Then the chief leaned back and smiled; "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."



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        #33
        Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

        Originally posted by magusphredde View Post
        I wonder how much zinc has been added to the oceans and lakes from "sacrificial" zincs on the hulls of boats and ships ???
        Probably about as much as what comes from sunscreen off swimmers.
        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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          #34
          Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

          A lot of zinc has been put into the environment since their use started ... Some weigh as much as 45 pounds (about 20 kilos) each ... http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/...FYVqfgoddosG0w ... And not by ust the boating and shipping industry http://corrosion-doctors.org/Corrosi...CP-History.htm
          I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them ... John Bernard Books


          Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official; "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done."

          The Chief nodded in agreement.

          The official continued; "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

          The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied.. "When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine Man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex."

          Then the chief leaned back and smiled; "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."



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            #35
            Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

            cool bit on atmospheric aerosols (naturally occurring and manmade): http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Aerosols/
            Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
            sigpic

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              #36
              Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

              Climate change:

              An interesting study-- https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...lanets-future/
              (and the actual study) http://www.atmos-chem-phys.net/16/37...iscussion.html

              The 66million year precedent-- https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...cientists-say/

              Economic growth "decoupled" from carbon emissions for the first time in decades-- https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-failed-again/
              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
              sigpic

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                #37
                Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

                Green technologies are finally starting to pay off. I argue about this to no end with my brother (who currently works in the oil industry, but does not have an apprenticeship that is specifically tied to oil or gas). At some point, we're going to finally move past fossil fuels, and it's already starting.

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                  #38
                  Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

                  At the K/T boundary (65 million years ago) the temperature of the Earth was 6 to 14C higher than it is today. Ocean levels were over 300 meters higher than they are today. There were no people around to notice the changes that were taking place. The Methane levels were considerably higher than today and the CO2 levels rapidly changed to much higher levels than we have today. This along with a large asteroid strike caused much of the extinction that took place on land and in the water. Mankind did not cause those dramatic changes in atmospheric temperatures but now we are here and trying to understand what is going on. It seems to be a bit egocentric to believe that mankind is a direct cause of things that have happened before when we weren't around. I do believe the climate is changing. It has been getting warmer since the last Ice age and will likely continue to warm until the next Ice Age or until, as the Sun ages, the amount of heat received by the Earth from the slowly dying Sun burns the earth away. (as the sun ages it will grow and release more heat than it has in the past) We are at the Sun's middle age now and in around 4.5 billion years it will either engulf the Earth completely or at least vaporize it.
                  Tomorrow the Yellowstone caldera could erupt sending the Earth into a "nuclear" winter that would take decades to recover from. That would take the human population out of the equation and return the Earth to a prehistoric level of equilibrium. I believe it is a good idea to limit CO2 production and I believe it will be necessary to prohibit all combustion uses of all kinds. It might even get to the point where we have to limit the Earths exposure to the Sun's heat to prolong our habitat but no matter what we do the Earth is one day going to fail to be a livable habitat for us.
                  For now we are reliant on the Earth and its processes to survive but the Earth is not reliant on us. Evolution will continue even if we destroy ourselves and the Earth will adapt and grow quite well without us. We will not be missed by the animals left after us and neither will the animals and plants that we destroy with ourselves. We do not struggle to save the Earth, but rather we struggle to save ourselves and the habitat in which we are comfortable. It seems a bit selfish and at the same time grandiose of us to believe that we are saving the Earth.
                  The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                  I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

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                    #39
                    Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

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                      #40
                      Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

                      Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
                      We do not struggle to save the Earth, but rather we struggle to save ourselves and the habitat in which we are comfortable. It seems a bit selfish and at the same time grandiose of us to believe that we are saving the Earth.

                      On one hand, yes.

                      On the other hand, knowing what we know about how systems work over all, its a bit delusional to think that, given our sheer numbers and technological capabilities (which tend to magnify our sheer numbers), we are incapable of ushering in the another great extinction event.
                      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                        #41
                        Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

                        If we do usher in an instinction even we will never do that again as we will be the ones extinct. The Earth will heal and life (without us) will go on.
                        The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                        I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

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                          #42
                          Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

                          Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
                          If we do usher in an instinction even we will never do that again as we will be the ones extinct. The Earth will heal and life (without us) will go on.
                          We are going through an extinction event. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

                          The argument, "It doesn't matter because we will go extinct" has to be the most apathetic, anti-intellectual position against current climate science I've ever heard.

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                            #43
                            Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

                            Stupidity will no doubt be the main factor if indeed we parish. Humans are way to smart for their own interest..like a kid playing with matches.....
                            MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                            all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                            NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                            don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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                            my new page here,let me know what you think.


                            nothing but the shadow of what was

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                              #44
                              Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

                              Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                              Stupidity will no doubt be the main factor if indeed we parish. Humans are way to smart for their own interest..like a kid playing with matches.....
                              And pretending they're omnivorous hunters.
                              "As long as humans continue to be the ruthless destroyer of other beings, we will never know health or peace. For as long as people massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, those who sow the seed of murder and pain will never reap joy or love." - Pythagoras


                              "I too shall lie in the dust when I am dead, but now let me win noble renown." - Homer, The Iliad

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                                #45
                                Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

                                Originally posted by Watchful Wanderer View Post
                                And pretending they're omnivorous hunters.
                                This is a thread about environmental pollution and the potential impact on the long term survival of the species that exist in that environment. Don't try to make it about any other topic. Trust me, that wont end well.

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