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    Let the Gods Speak To You

    Norse Heathenism, is a natural thing that in ancient Germanic peoples, had traditions and such that developed NATURALLY as they felt right. Today I find a lot of reconstructionists are focused on not doing anything unless they have evidence the Germanic peoples of the past also did it that way, I say that if you feel like you need to sit in a grove with ten other people, chanting in Chinese to the almighty Thor, there is probably a reason you feel that is the way you have to worship. In my humble opinion, that reason is because that is how the gods have asked you to worship but they whispered it to you, as a suggestion, hoping you'd catch on to it, rather than yell at you to do it and telling you that is the way it is going to be.

    Allow yourself to worship as YOU feel appropriate. I've noticed in several circles of reconstructionists, they debate the nature of the gods like a group of teenage boys may debate the Star Wars Movies, what is important is that you are praising the gods, not how you do it. Do as you feel is right and the gods will reward you, they likely do not care if you reconstruct a 3000 year old ritual, they probably only care that you performed A RITUAL and were focused more on them than the miniscule details of an ancient ritual.

    That is my little spiel about Asatru, recently I met a local group of reconstructionists and I was a little irked how they were more obsessed with details of ritual and praise than what the rituals and praise actually served to accomplish/communicate.

    #2
    Re: Let the Gods Speak To You

    I like the recon side of Norse Heathenism, to a degree.

    I try to make how I practise fit into how it was back then. Plus, if I know they did or thought one thing I see if there's a modern day equivalent. (Like I read that keeping bonsai trees can be a good way to pay homage to the Norns? I thought that was pretty cool!). The discussion of the nature of the Gods is something I think is worth debating sometimes, not unlike Star Wars (stoopid Jedis), but ultimately only so we can better understand our own connection with the Gods.

    Plus, I'm a history nerd so it's all very interesting to me.

    But I know what you mean. Sometimes, people have to just realise that what worked 'then', doesn't need to work 'now'. If for no other reason than we're not living in the same time period!

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Let the Gods Speak To You

      I think it's only natural that when people are new to something they want to make sure they do it perfectly - whatever "perfectly" is. No one really knows how the Norse worshiped and prayed... did they kneel, prostrate, stand? Now I do what I think is right. When I first started, and you can find my posts about it, I had questions about all kinds of details about offerings, the order of this, how to do that, and so on. One thing I won't do is crack open a bottle of wine, mead or beer without making it an offering ritual (I don't usually drink, so it becomes an offering). Even then it's just a few prayers thanking the Gods, offering to them, the spirits and ancestors. A lot of what we do has to be upg because so much is lost from the Viking Age. Even if we know exactly what they did, it's not always practical to do what they did and how they did it. Of course that's all just my opinion and how I see it.
      śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
      śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Let the Gods Speak To You

        I am not a Heathen, but for what it's worth, I agree with this post 100%. Reconstructing an old ritual creates a link to the past, and there's a real value to that, but that doesn't mean it's the only way to go. When reconstructing simply for the sake of reconstructing becomes more important than actually forging a connection, something's not right.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Let the Gods Speak To You

          Originally posted by Little Star View Post
          When reconstructing simply for the sake of reconstructing becomes more important than actually forging a connection, something's not right.
          Indeed something would not be right. When I was Eastern Orthodox, I had a parish priest that used to say beware of rituals becoming ends in themselves. They become mindless and rote actions, having lost their true meaning.
          śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
          śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Let the Gods Speak To You

            I agree completely! I was told something quite similar a few weeks ago, if I remember correctly the quote is;
            'A practice represents the time, funnily most Gods tend to be above that'
            Where people trying to reconstruct old rituals forget that honouring their God matters more than creating the perfect ritual to do it in.
            I think at the moment I've started searching less and doing more on this kind of idea ;P
            Work hard Play hard.
            What is history?

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Let the Gods Speak To You

              In most, I agree with this post. But, again, I'd love to critique it. For one, I am mesmerized with the old ritual base and tradition that kept it such. Do I think it needs to be followed to the hilt? No. I do think however, that it is a necessity to respect tradition.
              "In the shade now tall forms are advancing,
              And their wan hands like snowflakes in the moonlight are gleaming;
              They beckon, they whisper, 'Oh! strong armed in valor,
              The pale guests await thee - mead foams in Valhalla.'"
              - Finn's Saga

              http://hoodednorseman.tumblr.com/

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Let the Gods Speak To You

                Originally posted by SilverShadow View Post
                I like the recon side of Norse Heathenism, to a degree.

                I try to make how I practise fit into how it was back then. Plus, if I know they did or thought one thing I see if there's a modern day equivalent. (Like I read that keeping bonsai trees can be a good way to pay homage to the Norns? I thought that was pretty cool!). The discussion of the nature of the Gods is something I think is worth debating sometimes, not unlike Star Wars (stoopid Jedis), but ultimately only so we can better understand our own connection with the Gods.

                Plus, I'm a history nerd so it's all very interesting to me.

                But I know what you mean. Sometimes, people have to just realise that what worked 'then', doesn't need to work 'now'. If for no other reason than we're not living in the same time period!
                I'm mostly saying the problem with the debate is that they treat it like it's a fictional thing, not an actual religion to them.

                - - - Updated - - -

                Originally posted by Norse_Angel View Post
                In most, I agree with this post. But, again, I'd love to critique it. For one, I am mesmerized with the old ritual base and tradition that kept it such. Do I think it needs to be followed to the hilt? No. I do think however, that it is a necessity to respect tradition.
                Tradition has it's place, however new ideas are also a necessity. I'm not saying to abandon the old ideas but rather than making sure everything is the exact same thing, we should focus instead on the ritual's meaning.

                - - - Updated - - -

                I find this post can apply to many pagan traditions as I'm sure there are reconstructionists like this in all the different faiths. However I just aimed this particular post at Norse heathenism due to which part of the forum I'm posting in. :P

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Let the Gods Speak To You

                  Originally posted by sirz345 View Post
                  I'm mostly saying the problem with the debate is that they treat it like it's a fictional thing, not an actual religion to them.

                  Oh....THOSE guys. Urgh. Yes, I've encountered people like that. I don't think you're allowed to throw things at them, something about it being against the law.....





                  Originally posted by sirz345 View Post

                  Tradition has it's place, however new ideas are also a necessity. I'm not saying to abandon the old ideas but rather than making sure everything is the exact same thing, we should focus instead on the ritual's meaning.

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  I find this post can apply to many pagan traditions as I'm sure there are reconstructionists like this in all the different faiths. However I just aimed this particular post at Norse heathenism due to which part of the forum I'm posting in. :P
                  I'd be interested to see what recons are like in other Pagan faiths. I've found (and I'm only just delving into all of this again after a long time away so what I've 'found' might mean nothing) that it seems to be more strictly observed and hotly debated in Norse Heathenism than anywhere else.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Let the Gods Speak To You

                    Originally posted by SilverShadow View Post
                    I'd be interested to see what recons are like in other Pagan faiths. I've found (and I'm only just delving into all of this again after a long time away so what I've 'found' might mean nothing) that it seems to be more strictly observed and hotly debated in Norse Heathenism than anywhere else.
                    I've heard the recon Hellenic community can be similar to the recon Heathen community.

                    And I've not replied in here mostly because... well this is part of why I'm not recon. Hardcore recons are also why I ignored the Northern gods for a great many years, despite all the pings I was getting... and are why I tend to stay away from Heathen-only communities. When you aren't recon, you have the freedom to pay respect to the ancient practices and use them as inspiration for building your modern practices. I know the Lore as well as the average Heathen, but I have little interest in quibbling semantics or some small detail of ancient practice that is only semi-relevant in today's societies. Then we have the cherry picking... when was the last time anyone heard a hardcore Heathen who is adamant you MUST do everything exactly as our ancestors did, advocating a mass sacrifice to hang from trees at Uppsala?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Let the Gods Speak To You

                      Originally posted by sirz345 View Post
                      Norse Heathenism, is a natural thing that in ancient Germanic peoples, had traditions and such that developed NATURALLY as they felt right. Today I find a lot of reconstructionists are focused on not doing anything unless they have evidence the Germanic peoples of the past also did it that way, I say that if you feel like you need to sit in a grove with ten other people, chanting in Chinese to the almighty Thor, there is probably a reason you feel that is the way you have to worship. In my humble opinion, that reason is because that is how the gods have asked you to worship but they whispered it to you, as a suggestion, hoping you'd catch on to it, rather than yell at you to do it and telling you that is the way it is going to be.

                      Allow yourself to worship as YOU feel appropriate. I've noticed in several circles of reconstructionists, they debate the nature of the gods like a group of teenage boys may debate the Star Wars Movies, what is important is that you are praising the gods, not how you do it. Do as you feel is right and the gods will reward you, they likely do not care if you reconstruct a 3000 year old ritual, they probably only care that you performed A RITUAL and were focused more on them than the miniscule details of an ancient ritual.

                      That is my little spiel about Asatru, recently I met a local group of reconstructionists and I was a little irked how they were more obsessed with details of ritual and praise than what the rituals and praise actually served to accomplish/communicate.
                      As one of the few recon heathens on this board, I think the problem with this is that, when you boil it down, our worldview has more to do with traditions than they do with the gods. We have closer ties to our ancestors, to our kin, than we do to the Regin. When the ancestors did something, there was a reason behind it. What we try to do, as recons, is discover what that reason was and apply it as best as possible to our modern practice.

                      As a further example of my original point, there were those in the lore who were, for lack of a better term, 'godless heathens', by which I mean they would have looked like heathens to the rest of us but in fact had separated their luck, their wyrd, from that of the gods. In point of fact, many, many years ago we had a member on these forums (Rom Space Knight) who was just such a beast, and if recollection served he knew as much about our worldview as any follower of the Regin I knew.


                      Originally posted by sirz345 View Post
                      I'm mostly saying the problem with the debate is that they treat it like it's a fictional thing, not an actual religion to them.
                      I wouldn't dare speak for either the recons you have encountered, nor would I attempt to dismiss your recollection of those events. For me, however, it is not a religion, and I think many recons would say the same. It is far more than that, it is a worldview, a complete way of life of which the gods we worship (and how we worship them) are only a small part. To me, the existence of the Regin (while I believe in them 100%) doesn't matter, and that's the difference. Take the gods from a religion and you have nothing; take the gods from a worldview and you'll get a shrug. As a recon, I'm not a Heathen simply because the gods feel right (though they do), it's because the way the ancestors viewed and dealt with the world around them that called to me.


                      Originally posted by sirz345 View Post
                      Tradition has it's place, however new ideas are also a necessity. I'm not saying to abandon the old ideas but rather than making sure everything is the exact same thing, we should focus instead on the ritual's meaning.
                      I agree with this sentiment. My kindred only holds three major holidays; Mother's Night (as the begging of Jul), New Year's (as the end of Jul), and Eostre. There are others we celebrate as individuals whose date would have held no meaning to the ancestors (my personal favourite is Thanksgiving) but hold great significance to us, which the ancestors would have understood. There are those that they would have celebrated, such as the Charming of the Plow, which would have had great meaning to them but little to us now. I live in the cotton capital of the world and, though I understand it's significance and how it's continued prosperity affects that of the region, and by extension myself and my kith and kin, it still doesn't hold a sacral meaning to us. Things change. The ancestors were not static; the holidays they celebrated differed based upon temporal-regional variances. I think we should do the same, so long as the why of things remains the same.

                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      I've heard the recon Hellenic community can be similar to the recon Heathen community.
                      Depending upon what exactly we are referring to, you would be right. There are many similarities between Heathen and Hellenic recons, as I know from my dealings with a semi-local (read, only three hours away, which is close in Texas terms) Hellenic temple. They're good people in my book. You'll find more similarities between us and the Celtic recons, though. They're gods are a bit funny () but culturally they are quite similar.

                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      And I've not replied in here mostly because... well this is part of why I'm not recon. Hardcore recons are also why I ignored the Northern gods for a great many years, despite all the pings I was getting... and are why I tend to stay away from Heathen-only communities. When you aren't recon, you have the freedom to pay respect to the ancient practices and use them as inspiration for building your modern practices. I know the Lore as well as the average Heathen, but I have little interest in quibbling semantics or some small detail of ancient practice that is only semi-relevant in today's societies. Then we have the cherry picking... when was the last time anyone heard a hardcore Heathen who is adamant you MUST do everything exactly as our ancestors did, advocating a mass sacrifice to hang from trees at Uppsala?
                      I don't disagree with cherry picking but the example you use is a poor one (and I know, you're probably thinking "here comes the semantic quibbling" but hear me out). Our ancestors were a law-loving people. At the time of the sacrifices in Uppsala, that sort of thing was law. Now, it'll get you and yours locked away for life. A big part of reconstructing the worldview of our heathen ancestors is dealing with this schism between the way things were, the traditions practiced, and the reality of the law being vastly different in modern times.

                      I have to point out though that anyone who thinks that the Regin don't require sacrifice of some sort aren't paying enough attention. A gift for a gift is a big part of the relationship our ancestors had with one another as well as with the gods. I'm not saying to go out and start slaughtering your enemies (or kittens for that matter), but sacrifice is a big part of the worldview. Does sacrificing your time to aid your community count? That's a good debate; I would say no (helping your community is inherently self serving in our worldview) but it would be worth discussing. Money, goods (handmade or otherwise), mead, food, these things are acceptable sacrifices in modern times, however I wouldn't outright issue a blanket statement that something else isn't a "proper sacrifice" without knowing the circumstances involved. Is sacrificing animals acceptable in today's times? It depends, I think. If one goes out and starts rounding up animals and torturing them to death, not only 'no' but 'hell no'. Such an action would bring dishonour to those involved. That said, if one raises an animal (generally a food animal; cow, pig, goat, etc.) or knows that an animal has been treated well, a clean, quick (read; minimal suffering) sacrifice of blood before the animal is eaten would be acceptable by law depending upon what state/region/etc. you live in. If such an action is going to create a bad stigma for you and yours in the community, the cost to benefit ratio wold have to be weighed very heavily. If such an action would break the law, I think the gods and ancestors would frown on it, regardless of the intent.
                      "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

                      "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Let the Gods Speak To You

                        Originally posted by Crimson Horizons View Post

                        I have to point out though that anyone who thinks that the Regin don't require sacrifice of some sort aren't paying enough attention. A gift for a gift is a big part of the relationship our ancestors had with one another as well as with the gods. I'm not saying to go out and start slaughtering your enemies (or kittens for that matter), but sacrifice is a big part of the worldview. Does sacrificing your time to aid your community count? That's a good debate; I would say no (helping your community is inherently self serving in our worldview) but it would be worth discussing. Money, goods (handmade or otherwise), mead, food, these things are acceptable sacrifices in modern times, however I wouldn't outright issue a blanket statement that something else isn't a "proper sacrifice" without knowing the circumstances involved. Is sacrificing animals acceptable in today's times? It depends, I think. If one goes out and starts rounding up animals and torturing them to death, not only 'no' but 'hell no'. Such an action would bring dishonour to those involved. That said, if one raises an animal (generally a food animal; cow, pig, goat, etc.) or knows that an animal has been treated well, a clean, quick (read; minimal suffering) sacrifice of blood before the animal is eaten would be acceptable by law depending upon what state/region/etc. you live in. If such an action is going to create a bad stigma for you and yours in the community, the cost to benefit ratio wold have to be weighed very heavily. If such an action would break the law, I think the gods and ancestors would frown on it, regardless of the intent.


                        This is the part I think I understand the least of what you've had to say in relation to recon practise.

                        If the aim of a recon is to transplant a world view from one point in time to another, making the necessary adjustments to ensure the worldview is 'up to date', how can you be so sure that what was once a sacrifice is still a sacrifice? And what wasn't a sacrifice still isn't a sacrifice? How can you be sure of anything?

                        I mean, a lot has changed since the Ancient Norse times and it would be nice to think that had the Norse been able to keep their culture unhindered, then maybe they would have naturally progressed to being a more liberal society than they were. But as that didn't happen, aren't you just guessing like the rest of us as to what would be appropriate now?

                        Yes, they were big on the 'law'. But, and correct me if I'm wrong, they were big on the law THEY created for themselves. While it would have been bad to steal someone else's stuff, they didn't seem to have too many reservations about getting on a boat and stealing someone else's stuff who wasn't like them. So how can we say that they would care about the law of the land, when it really depended on which land they were in?

                        I don't mean those questions to sound rude. I found your entire post very interesting. But I couldn't find a way to ask those questions without being quite blunt. (And I tried for a good half hour!)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Let the Gods Speak To You

                          Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                          I've heard the recon Hellenic community can be similar to the recon Heathen community.

                          And I've not replied in here mostly because... well this is part of why I'm not recon. Hardcore recons are also why I ignored the Northern gods for a great many years, despite all the pings I was getting... and are why I tend to stay away from Heathen-only communities. When you aren't recon, you have the freedom to pay respect to the ancient practices and use them as inspiration for building your modern practices. I know the Lore as well as the average Heathen, but I have little interest in quibbling semantics or some small detail of ancient practice that is only semi-relevant in today's societies. Then we have the cherry picking... when was the last time anyone heard a hardcore Heathen who is adamant you MUST do everything exactly as our ancestors did, advocating a mass sacrifice to hang from trees at Uppsala?
                          I will not speak on behalf of all traditionalists, but I have always been mesmerized with Uppsala. I feel if it was not taboo to talk in such a way, and if it wasn't morally wrong to take a part of, I would have no problem with ceremonial mass living sacrifices. As long as they were performed as the ancestors had committed them, in quick, humane ways, I would feel a calling to take part in them. Would I bluntly do this in how our world is shaped today? No, I can't say I would.
                          That isn't to say I have never committed any living sacrifices. For the purposes of feasts during blots, solstices and equinoxes, I have taken a part in a handful of very quick, humane animal sacrifices. And I can honestly say, I felt my ancestors hands, and the Gods will guide me. But it really goes back to the topic of what your gods and ancestors ask of you, and what mine ask of me.
                          "In the shade now tall forms are advancing,
                          And their wan hands like snowflakes in the moonlight are gleaming;
                          They beckon, they whisper, 'Oh! strong armed in valor,
                          The pale guests await thee - mead foams in Valhalla.'"
                          - Finn's Saga

                          http://hoodednorseman.tumblr.com/

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Let the Gods Speak To You

                            Originally posted by Crimson Horizons View Post
                            As one of the few recon heathens on this board, I think the problem with this is that, when you boil it down, our worldview has more to do with traditions than they do with the gods. We have closer ties to our ancestors, to our kin, than we do to the Regin. When the ancestors did something, there was a reason behind it. What we try to do, as recons, is discover what that reason was and apply it as best as possible to our modern practice.

                            As a further example of my original point, there were those in the lore who were, for lack of a better term, 'godless heathens', by which I mean they would have looked like heathens to the rest of us but in fact had separated their luck, their wyrd, from that of the gods. In point of fact, many, many years ago we had a member on these forums (Rom Space Knight) who was just such a beast, and if recollection served he knew as much about our worldview as any follower of the Regin I knew.




                            I wouldn't dare speak for either the recons you have encountered, nor would I attempt to dismiss your recollection of those events. For me, however, it is not a religion, and I think many recons would say the same. It is far more than that, it is a worldview, a complete way of life of which the gods we worship (and how we worship them) are only a small part. To me, the existence of the Regin (while I believe in them 100%) doesn't matter, and that's the difference. Take the gods from a religion and you have nothing; take the gods from a worldview and you'll get a shrug. As a recon, I'm not a Heathen simply because the gods feel right (though they do), it's because the way the ancestors viewed and dealt with the world around them that called to me.




                            I agree with this sentiment. My kindred only holds three major holidays; Mother's Night (as the begging of Jul), New Year's (as the end of Jul), and Eostre. There are others we celebrate as individuals whose date would have held no meaning to the ancestors (my personal favourite is Thanksgiving) but hold great significance to us, which the ancestors would have understood. There are those that they would have celebrated, such as the Charming of the Plow, which would have had great meaning to them but little to us now. I live in the cotton capital of the world and, though I understand it's significance and how it's continued prosperity affects that of the region, and by extension myself and my kith and kin, it still doesn't hold a sacral meaning to us. Things change. The ancestors were not static; the holidays they celebrated differed based upon temporal-regional variances. I think we should do the same, so long as the why of things remains the same.



                            Depending upon what exactly we are referring to, you would be right. There are many similarities between Heathen and Hellenic recons, as I know from my dealings with a semi-local (read, only three hours away, which is close in Texas terms) Hellenic temple. They're good people in my book. You'll find more similarities between us and the Celtic recons, though. They're gods are a bit funny () but culturally they are quite similar.



                            I don't disagree with cherry picking but the example you use is a poor one (and I know, you're probably thinking "here comes the semantic quibbling" but hear me out). Our ancestors were a law-loving people. At the time of the sacrifices in Uppsala, that sort of thing was law. Now, it'll get you and yours locked away for life. A big part of reconstructing the worldview of our heathen ancestors is dealing with this schism between the way things were, the traditions practiced, and the reality of the law being vastly different in modern times.

                            I have to point out though that anyone who thinks that the Regin don't require sacrifice of some sort aren't paying enough attention. A gift for a gift is a big part of the relationship our ancestors had with one another as well as with the gods. I'm not saying to go out and start slaughtering your enemies (or kittens for that matter), but sacrifice is a big part of the worldview. Does sacrificing your time to aid your community count? That's a good debate; I would say no (helping your community is inherently self serving in our worldview) but it would be worth discussing. Money, goods (handmade or otherwise), mead, food, these things are acceptable sacrifices in modern times, however I wouldn't outright issue a blanket statement that something else isn't a "proper sacrifice" without knowing the circumstances involved. Is sacrificing animals acceptable in today's times? It depends, I think. If one goes out and starts rounding up animals and torturing them to death, not only 'no' but 'hell no'. Such an action would bring dishonour to those involved. That said, if one raises an animal (generally a food animal; cow, pig, goat, etc.) or knows that an animal has been treated well, a clean, quick (read; minimal suffering) sacrifice of blood before the animal is eaten would be acceptable by law depending upon what state/region/etc. you live in. If such an action is going to create a bad stigma for you and yours in the community, the cost to benefit ratio wold have to be weighed very heavily. If such an action would break the law, I think the gods and ancestors would frown on it, regardless of the intent.
                            Let me clarify that I am not talking about recons on this forum. Most of you guys have proven that you are serious about this and not here to just talk about it as if it were Dungeons and Dragons, my main example comes from a local group whom have never heard of this forum.
                            The thing that bothers me is that they obviously were doing this because they thought it was cool and not because they believed in it, so I was offended when they told me I wasn't performing my rituals correctly.

                            - - - Updated - - -

                            Originally posted by Norse_Angel View Post
                            I will not speak on behalf of all traditionalists, but I have always been mesmerized with Uppsala. I feel if it was not taboo to talk in such a way, and if it wasn't morally wrong to take a part of, I would have no problem with ceremonial mass living sacrifices. As long as they were performed as the ancestors had committed them, in quick, humane ways, I would feel a calling to take part in them. Would I bluntly do this in how our world is shaped today? No, I can't say I would.
                            That isn't to say I have never committed any living sacrifices. For the purposes of feasts during blots, solstices and equinoxes, I have taken a part in a handful of very quick, humane animal sacrifices. And I can honestly say, I felt my ancestors hands, and the Gods will guide me. But it really goes back to the topic of what your gods and ancestors ask of you, and what mine ask of me.
                            I've sacrificed a chicken before. Of course I cooked and ate it afterwards (that or it would rot and I believe the gods would not want me to waste so much meat) but I believe mass sacrifice is a tad wasteful and sacrifice in general is an EXTREMELY spiritual practice not to be performed every time you worship.

                            PS: Don't worry, it was quick and painless. I have been a hunter since I was about 12 so I am very big into a quick, easy kill. Drawing it out is what a-holes do in my opinion.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Let the Gods Speak To You

                              Originally posted by Crimson Horizons View Post
                              Depending upon what exactly we are referring to, you would be right. There are many similarities between Heathen and Hellenic recons, as I know from my dealings with a semi-local (read, only three hours away, which is close in Texas terms) Hellenic temple. They're good people in my book. You'll find more similarities between us and the Celtic recons, though. They're gods are a bit funny () but culturally they are quite similar.
                              It was in direct response to the comment I quoted, so I was referring to the schism between the hardcore recons, the not-hardcore recons and everyone else, rather than any similarity to belief or practice. I'm sure every tradition who has recons and not-recons has similar dynamics, but most of the stories I've heard put the Hellenic and Heathen communities at the top of the internal squabbling list.

                              Originally posted by Crimson Horizons View Post
                              I don't disagree with cherry picking but the example you use is a poor one (and I know, you're probably thinking "here comes the semantic quibbling" but hear me out). Our ancestors were a law-loving people. At the time of the sacrifices in Uppsala, that sort of thing was law. Now, it'll get you and yours locked away for life. A big part of reconstructing the worldview of our heathen ancestors is dealing with this schism between the way things were, the traditions practiced, and the reality of the law being vastly different in modern times.
                              That last sentence is, I think, one of the defining factors that puts someone in the 'not-hardcore recon' category. Which is actually why I use the term 'hardcore recon' when I talk about the sorts of recons that are being mentioned in this thread. I'm sure you know the ones... the ones who give being a recon a bad name. You'll notice that whenever I make a comment that is remotely disparaging, it's about 'hardcore recons', not 'recons'. That's because I very specifically do not wish to generalise and tar all recons with that brush... because I know there's quite a difference in attitudes and worldview.

                              Interestingly, I sometimes feel that liberal recons need to drop the 'recon' label and use something else instead (just plain 'Heathen' seems appropriate to me). Because at the other end of the spectrum you have people claiming to be a recon Heathen, and yet doing very little that is truly attempting to reconstruct the worldview of our ancestors. Or adopting very modern ideas about the gods, which don't match at all with what we know about how our ancestors thought and dealt with the gods. I wonder if the internet and the increase in solitary Heathens has led to similar phenomenon that we see with Wicca vs neo-Wicca. I have certainly see 'recon Heathens' and 'traditional Heathens' who are not particularly traditional in their worldview and practice... which is fine, but it muddies up the terminology and facilitates unfair generalisations. So both extremes have their disadvantages. But that's off topic.

                              Cherry picking becomes much less of a problem when you have the attitude that you expressed above. To an extent, we HAVE to cherry pick when recreating or reviving traditional practices, because we live in a very different social context to our ancestors. As you know, it's impossible to be completely faithful to the practices. So dealing with that schism between the way things were and modern times is the sort of cherry picking that is necessary to reconstructing a respectful practice that is faithful to the worldview, if not the exact practices. For me, cherry picking becomes a problem when you have hardcore recons being adamant about some details, while ignoring or glossing over the others, without admitting the flaws and limitations of the process. It's one thing to be firm but honest about the limitations of being a recon in today's society, and quite another to swan abut in a self-righteous attitude of 'this is how it must be done'. And this is another of the defining factors that separates the 'hardcore recon' from the 'not-hardcore recon', at least in my perception.

                              Originally posted by Crimson Horizons View Post
                              I have to point out though that anyone who thinks that the Regin don't require sacrifice of some sort aren't paying enough attention. A gift for a gift is a big part of the relationship our ancestors had with one another as well as with the gods.
                              I absolutely agree, and I think that this is a common problem with many pagan paths and faiths.

                              Originally posted by Crimson Horizons View Post
                              I'm not saying to go out and start slaughtering your enemies (or kittens for that matter), but sacrifice is a big part of the worldview. Does sacrificing your time to aid your community count? That's a good debate; I would say no (helping your community is inherently self serving in our worldview) but it would be worth discussing. Money, goods (handmade or otherwise), mead, food, these things are acceptable sacrifices in modern times, however I wouldn't outright issue a blanket statement that something else isn't a "proper sacrifice" without knowing the circumstances involved. Is sacrificing animals acceptable in today's times? It depends, I think. If one goes out and starts rounding up animals and torturing them to death, not only 'no' but 'hell no'. Such an action would bring dishonour to those involved. That said, if one raises an animal (generally a food animal; cow, pig, goat, etc.) or knows that an animal has been treated well, a clean, quick (read; minimal suffering) sacrifice of blood before the animal is eaten would be acceptable by law depending upon what state/region/etc. you live in. If such an action is going to create a bad stigma for you and yours in the community, the cost to benefit ratio wold have to be weighed very heavily. If such an action would break the law, I think the gods and ancestors would frown on it, regardless of the intent.
                              This is possibly best followed up in the new sacrifices thread, but I think that the hyperbole surrounding animal sacrifice leads people to kind of... miss the point... when it comes to sacrifice in the Northern paths (recon or not). I think we get caught up in WHAT was sacrificed and forget about the WHY... particularly the significance of the animals and humans who were sacrificed. Animals have quite a different value to most modern people than they did to our ancestors... so while the sacrifice of a food animal during a blot translates quite well into modern times, sacrifices such as those at Uppsala don't. It's such a taboo subject outside of Heathen circles (it is within too, though far less so than outside) that we skirt around the issue and get caught up in 'killing live animals' and forget to discuss why it was done, how it was done, what our ancestors were actually offering (what did those animals [and people] mean to the group), what the gods were getting out of it, and what the ancestors were getting out of it. Then we can translate that into our modern society and decide whether things such as time, community service, money, goods or that really expensive bottle of alcohol are legitimate alternatives to the live animal sacrifice. For non-recons, there's also the point that many of the gods seem to be willing to change their expectations and accept different gifts than they would have from our ancestors. I think the debate is far more complex than a matter of ethics and legalities.

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