Sacrifices

[anunitu]

Re: Sacrifices

Killing even a small animal is not all that easy..I try not to if I can,BUT..once while working at a volunteer job,one of the regulars there was throwing a sticky trap with a mouse in it into the garbage. I took the trap with the mouse,and killed the mouse with my knife(better it died quick by my hand,than starved stuck to the trap in the garbage) The person who was throwing it in the garbage got upset,saying how cruel I was to kill the mouse like that..I could not get through to the person that it was even crueler to allow it to starve. I feel we owe animals at least a little concern for their suffering.

[Norse_Angel]

Re: Sacrifices

Used to be a kindred that would go to the Oklahoma state prison and dedicate executed prisoners to the gods. So legal human sacrifice is still ideologically possible.

Wait, what? Let me reiterate this, You would go to prisons to watch executions, and dedicate them to the gods? Isn't that slightly sacrilege?

[Thorbjorn]

Re: Sacrifices

There is an ongoing argument here in North-west NJ. There are bears in these parts,enough so that they sometimes show up in small towns and even small cities. The argument is about the annual bear hunt to glean the population down to help control the bear interaction with people. The fight is between conservationists who understand,to many bears,not enough wild food,so the bears come into towns for easy grub. Other side is cruelty to animals people,who btw as I have seen really do not understand what a wild animal is,it is not cute and cuddly,it is wild,and given a chance will eat even you. I love animals,but with that is the understanding that not all animals can be pets or should be.

BOOYAH!!!

Kindred minds. I love animals too, I've done rescues and re-homes, and cried like a baby when I lost one (a 200 lb bear crying like a baby is a sad sight). In fact, I like animals more than I like a lot of people. I've seen signs even in Monmouth County railing against the bear hunts. I'm of two minds about it because the bears can pose a danger to people, especially children playing; yet it's we humans who are taking away indigenous animals' habitats. The genie is out of the bottle, and I don't see him going back in, except for the extirpation or outright extinction of some species. We have so many deer because we've extirpated their natural predators. Anyway, climbing down from my soapbox...

I don't hunt, could never hunt, could never slaughter an animal. Not that I have anything against it. I'm afraid I would make the animal suffer. I was born in Newark and raised in Brick Twp., so how Little House on the Prairie can I be? That said, I don't think I'd have any problem attending an animal sacrifice if as others pointed out, it was done humanely, as quickly and as painlessly as possible. When I practiced Hinduism I tried going vegetarian... that no work. I didn't eat beef, but once I gave up practicing Hinduism I reverted fully to "Beef, it's what's for dinner" mode.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait, what? Let me reiterate this, You would go to prisons to watch executions, and dedicate them to the gods? Isn't that slightly sacrilege?

Not if it was death by hanging.

(We are not amused)

[Rick]

Re: Sacrifices

Wait, what? Let me reiterate this, You would go to prisons to watch executions, and dedicate them to the gods? Isn't that slightly sacrilege?

No, they would go to the visitor parking lot of the prison and, when the announcement was made that the execution had been carried out, dedicate the executed man-killer to Odin, to whom executions have been dedicated for a couple thousand years, which makes it quite the opposite of sacrilege.

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Sacrifices

So, another post in this forum gave me the question of how others may think of the ideologies of sacrificial offerings. During blots, and other celebrations, what does the common heathen use to please the gods? I know many take to alcoholic beverages in offerings and I know of some who prefer to offer blood. I was wondering what people use for their offerings in general.
And on the topic, Have any of us used living offerings during celebrations or rituals? If so, what have you used? For an example, a couple Yules ago, my folk and I sacrificed a pig for feast. We did it in a very humane way, with as little suffering dealt to the beast as possible.
Sorry if I'm over stepping a forum rule within this post. I am not asking for gory recollections from any live offerings. I am wondering how many of us have actually taken a part in some type of living sacrifice. I, in no way, am glorifying or recommending any to go to a local pet store in search of a small animal to kill.

During blots we use blood, but we have few of those. Generally, my kindred has fainings, which are bloodless offerings. We give food, drink, goods, those sort of things to the gods to reaffirm our connexion with them. Occasionally, we give our orlog, our good luck, back to the gods as a way of saying thank you for the assistance they provide. When we need something, really need it, those requests are paid for in blood.

I've never been a part of a living sacrifice but have nothing against it either. As many others of said, I would need to either raise the animal myself or know with certainty that it had come from a place where it had been cared for to my standards. If I had the land, I would probably raise a cow for just this purpose every year or two. That, and I loves me some cow-meat!

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Sacrifices

The Indo-European term for sacrifice was probably *adbher- or *obbher- both with a sense of ‘to bring’. Similar terms have survived in Irish (adpair), Welsh (aberth); both were taken from the proto-Celtic word *opber which again implies something that has been brought. I wonder what it might have been called had the original meaning been 'That which has been killed/struck down.'
Scissors-fice (on account of scissors sharing a linguistic root with homicide)???

[Medusa]

Re: Sacrifices

For those who don't know, I'm an atheist. So with that said. Here is how it is perceived from these eyes.
Hey! I had a great piece of life going on so far! Lemme go kill something. Thanks god.

No.

[Norse_Angel]

Re: Sacrifices

I'm an atheist.

Well, there's where we lose each other. You lack the actual connection with a type of unconcious or concious, inner and outer being, so, you will never be able to relate with any of the posts above.
There are many studies conducted on the ties of anestory through religious, or spiritual practices. Not only do I feel the gods, but the gods feel me. Not only do I feel my ancestors, but my ancestors feel me.
Putting this simply, you cannot relate to the topic, so from an outside perspective, you are heavily misinformed on the ideologies surrounding living sacrifices, and differing religious practices themselves.
Sorry if any of that came off as rude, that's just from my point of view. No hate on your beliefs though.

[Medusa]

Re: Sacrifices

Well, there's where we lose each other. You lack the actual connection with a type of unconcious or concious, inner and outer being, so, you will never be able to relate with any of the posts above.
There are many studies conducted on the ties of anestory through religious, or spiritual practices. Not only do I feel the gods, but the gods feel me. Not only do I feel my ancestors, but my ancestors feel me.
Putting this simply, you cannot relate to the topic, so from an outside perspective, you are heavily misinformed on the ideologies surrounding living sacrifices, and differing religious practices themselves.
Sorry if any of that came off as rude, that's just from my point of view. No hate on your beliefs though.

Lol. You have no idea my connection to religion. But that's ok. We don't know each other. Suffice it to say I don't think you need to be a religious person to be ok with killing something to say thanks to a god.

[thalassa]

Re: Sacrifices

For those who don't know, I'm an atheist. So with that said. Here is how it is perceived from these eyes.
Hey! I had a great piece of life going on so far! Lemme go kill something. Thanks god.

No.

You forgot the part about eating it afterwards. Something that (at least in ancient times) you were raising to eat anyhow...or in modern times, hunting to eat anyhow, or spending a lot of money (and time) to buy from a farmer and butcher yourself and eat anyhow.

Personally, I think everyone that eats meat should have to kill and gut and butcher their own food at least once in their life (and, if it wouldn't be completely cruel for no reason, I think every vegetarian should have to stomp on a mouse and toss it in a blender (since that's pretty much what happens on commercial harvesters))... We all exist on the death of something, and the reality is that modern society and technology and convenience has let us ignore that. The amount of time, effort, and energy that goes into making the food that you make into a meal is staggering, and (IMO) should be dedicated to something greater than ourselves--even if its just a moment of unselfishness where we are thankfulness to the persons that labored to get it there and the lives (plant and animal) that died so you could live.

Its more like a band dedicating their album to mom or an author dedicating a book to his wife.

[SilverShadow]

Re: Sacrifices

Are you a vegetarian or vegan?

(I know we have a few, but I honestly don't remember who is who)

Yeah, I am. That, obviously, makes my view on animal sacrifice biased. But no more biased than those who eat animals. I hope no one is fooled into thinking that just because I don't eat animals, that I'm the only one not bringing my politics to the table here. We all have a vested interest when we argue our points.

Should have known better than to try and reconnect with a pagan community after going veg though. I made the same excuses for myself when I'd 'offer' parts of my meaty dinner to the Gods. Like she (the cow or chicken usually) cared about whether I was 'thankful' for her flesh on my plate, whether I really 'respected' her as I shovelled bits of her abused body into my mouth. (And before anyone makes any assumptions, I grew up on a farm so I'm not some city slicker who suddenly realised animals have feelings too). I was just sort of hoping that when I woke up to everything, maybe everyone else did too. Ha ha.....

But they haven't and that's really, really hard to deal with.

Y'know, this will probably be my last post as this particular thread has really hit me hard. I understand if Mods decided to delete it because it's "off topic", nothing I can do about that.

Animals play such a huge part of all Paganism in general and in the Norse beliefs, they're so integral to everything. They are messengers, the ones who facilitate travel, the ones who give life in it's earliest forms. I find it difficult, now, to believe that killing them is truly the way we should pay homage to the Gods.

In saying that, I really don't know whether the Gods want us to sacrifice or not. I'm not going to say that "Tyr told me" or "Odin spoke to me" because they didn't and if they did, it was only in whispers. But the thing that drew me to Tyr as a meat eater, is the same thing that draws me to him now- Justice. Fairness. I think those are good ideals to reach for and I don't think there is justice for an animal when we pretend that saying prayers over it, before slitting it's throat, is fair enough recompense for what we've taken. I don't think the Gods approve of us stealing from someone else, not any more at least and that remains my view on what it is to kill an animal. It's stealing the most precious thing they have (aside from when we steal their children) and doing it in the name of a God....It looks like a hollow gesture to me now.


Most of this will be ignored and I'm never really prepared for that to happen. But at least I've said my piece.

[Norse_Angel]

Re: Sacrifices

I will emphasize a point I made in an above post: In no way do I relish in the killing of an animal. No way do I take any type of malicious pleasure from it either. It's not a sense of, "well, let's kill something to say thank you." It's a tremendously deeper rooted tradition than that. It's not savagely murdering something. And keeping in mind, all energy comes from somewhere, I am simply paying patronage to that energy, in sending it back to where it derived, in the name of my energy forebears. It's a lot more complicated than that though. This is not a barbaric practice, and it, in my system of belief, has been done in a very humane way since the beginning.

[Medusa]

Re: Sacrifices

You forgot the part about eating it afterwards. Something that (at least in ancient times) you were raising to eat anyhow...or in modern times, hunting to eat anyhow, or spending a lot of money (and time) to buy from a farmer and butcher yourself and eat anyhow.

Personally, I think everyone that eats meat should have to kill and gut and butcher their own food at least once in their life (and, if it wouldn't be completely cruel for no reason, I think every vegetarian should have to stomp on a mouse and toss it in a blender (since that's pretty much what happens on commercial harvesters))... We all exist on the death of something, and the reality is that modern society and technology and convenience has let us ignore that. The amount of time, effort, and energy that goes into making the food that you make into a meal is staggering, and (IMO) should be dedicated to something greater than ourselves--even if its just a moment of unselfishness where we are thankfulness to the persons that labored to get it there and the lives (plant and animal) that died so you could live.

Its more like a band dedicating their album to mom or an author dedicating a book to his wife.

Well I haven't killed my food. But I did eat our pet chicken (the family made fried chicken out of it) when I was 4. I'm fine with killing animals for a need. Clothing. Food. Shelter (you know digging out that horse in the middle of the desert somewhere and living inside of it. I'm sure something was mentioned of this in the movie Hildago. I'm ok with judging the reasons on a level of I'm ok with that..to that sounds awfully sketchy. Thanking your god for a good life. Praying to your god for a good life or better outcome of whatever is going on in your life..seems sketchy to me.

But you know I am an atheist. I have no understanding of religion at all.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Sacrifices

I get my meat from Walmart. I have killed, and can honestly say I don't have a taste for it.

But, if I were killing my own food, I would do it as you've said previously, Thalassa - with respect, gratitude, and courtesy. I know that, for myself, I'd have two choices - learn to kill with emotional detachment, in which case I feel that I would lose something in myself that I, personally, value.

Or, do it with respect, etc., in which case I might actually gain something that I would value.

Buying at Walmart is a neutral - nothing gained, nothing lost. I'm OK with that, in this case.

I can't say I go so far as to treat bought meat as a gift or such - not consciously. But I hate throwing meat away, or having it go off before it's eaten, not because it wastes money, or because there are starving pagan babies in Africa, but because my gut tells me that meat represents life, and wasting life is not good. That's why I've mastered the art of saving bones to make soup.

Sometimes (because I am obliged to interact with some ill puppies in my job) I run into those who kill with glee. This is the most disturbing thing ever, and I generally feel like throwing myself between the sick one and any other living thing.

Weirdly, it is stupidly against the law to call some kid's parents on the phone and warn them that their child is associating with a dangerously disturbed individual.

[thalassa]

Re: Sacrifices

Yeah, I am. That, obviously, makes my view on animal sacrifice biased. But no more biased than those who eat animals. I hope no one is fooled into thinking that just because I don't eat animals, that I'm the only one not bringing my politics to the table here. We all have a vested interest when we argue our points.

Should have known better than to try and reconnect with a pagan community after going veg though. I made the same excuses for myself when I'd 'offer' parts of my meaty dinner to the Gods. Like she (the cow or chicken usually) cared about whether I was 'thankful' for her flesh on my plate, whether I really 'respected' her as I shovelled bits of her abused body into my mouth. (And before anyone makes any assumptions, I grew up on a farm so I'm not some city slicker who suddenly realised animals have feelings too). I was just sort of hoping that when I woke up to everything, maybe everyone else did too. Ha ha.....

But they haven't and that's really, really hard to deal with.

Y'know, this will probably be my last post as this particular thread has really hit me hard. I understand if Mods decided to delete it because it's "off topic", nothing I can do about that.

Animals play such a huge part of all Paganism in general and in the Norse beliefs, they're so integral to everything. They are messengers, the ones who facilitate travel, the ones who give life in it's earliest forms. I find it difficult, now, to believe that killing them is truly the way we should pay homage to the Gods.

In saying that, I really don't know whether the Gods want us to sacrifice or not. I'm not going to say that "Tyr told me" or "Odin spoke to me" because they didn't and if they did, it was only in whispers. But the thing that drew me to Tyr as a meat eater, is the same thing that draws me to him now- Justice. Fairness. I think those are good ideals to reach for and I don't think there is justice for an animal when we pretend that saying prayers over it, before slitting it's throat, is fair enough recompense for what we've taken. I don't think the Gods approve of us stealing from someone else, not any more at least and that remains my view on what it is to kill an animal. It's stealing the most precious thing they have (aside from when we steal their children) and doing it in the name of a God....It looks like a hollow gesture to me now.

Most of this will be ignored and I'm never really prepared for that to happen. But at least I've said my piece.

Well, I hope you don't leave because of a difference of opinion. That's what makes life interesting. Sometimes though, I think we forget that those differences of opinion aren't a condemnation of our own choices, but a different experience. Knowing that you are a vegetarian isn't (or it wasn't meant to be) meant to be calling you out or anything, I was trying to figure out context for why you might have your stated opinion. Paganism means pluralism, and that means the relentless examination of our differences in relation to one another, without a necessity for agreement.

I was a vegetarian for eight years. And then I woke up--Different life experiences lead to different lives and different opinions. Not wrong, just different.

It is an occupational hazard of pluralism that we must live alongside people who differ from us. This gives rise to discomfort, displeasure, fear, and even anger. Civilization asks that, at such times, we refrain from drawing swords. It requires that we continue to draw distinctions.
(Elizabeth Kristol)