Sacrifices

[Medusa]

Re: Sacrifices

Yeah, I am. That, obviously, makes my view on animal sacrifice biased. But no more biased than those who eat animals. I hope no one is fooled into thinking that just because I don't eat animals, that I'm the only one not bringing my politics to the table here. We all have a vested interest when we argue our points.

Should have known better than to try and reconnect with a pagan community after going veg though. I made the same excuses for myself when I'd 'offer' parts of my meaty dinner to the Gods. Like she (the cow or chicken usually) cared about whether I was 'thankful' for her flesh on my plate, whether I really 'respected' her as I shovelled bits of her abused body into my mouth. (And before anyone makes any assumptions, I grew up on a farm so I'm not some city slicker who suddenly realised animals have feelings too). I was just sort of hoping that when I woke up to everything, maybe everyone else did too. Ha ha.....

But they haven't and that's really, really hard to deal with.

Y'know, this will probably be my last post as this particular thread has really hit me hard. I understand if Mods decided to delete it because it's "off topic", nothing I can do about that.

Animals play such a huge part of all Paganism in general and in the Norse beliefs, they're so integral to everything. They are messengers, the ones who facilitate travel, the ones who give life in it's earliest forms. I find it difficult, now, to believe that killing them is truly the way we should pay homage to the Gods.

In saying that, I really don't know whether the Gods want us to sacrifice or not. I'm not going to say that "Tyr told me" or "Odin spoke to me" because they didn't and if they did, it was only in whispers. But the thing that drew me to Tyr as a meat eater, is the same thing that draws me to him now- Justice. Fairness. I think those are good ideals to reach for and I don't think there is justice for an animal when we pretend that saying prayers over it, before slitting it's throat, is fair enough recompense for what we've taken. I don't think the Gods approve of us stealing from someone else, not any more at least and that remains my view on what it is to kill an animal. It's stealing the most precious thing they have (aside from when we steal their children) and doing it in the name of a God....It looks like a hollow gesture to me now.


Most of this will be ignored and I'm never really prepared for that to happen. But at least I've said my piece.

I'm a meat eater. And I actually totally understand your feelings on this. Keep speaking up. We all thrive on differences of opinions.

[anunitu]

Re: Sacrifices

I also eat meat,and the biggest concern I do have is mistreatment of animals in the process of killing them. I know you may say,the killing alone is mistreatment,but a LOT of people eat meat,and better some concern as to the method and treatment of the animals than none at all.

There is a history of a few thousand years of eating the flesh of animals,but consider that you have the right to be a non meat eater,and are able to get vegen food to sustain yourself.

My body is used to meat,and a few vegiees and might have a hard time adjusting.

If I were to look at other cultures I would see some animals used for food that might bother me because here we consider them pets. In another country I read about,hamsters are considered as a main part of the food consumed. Checked,the one eaten is Guinea Pigs.

http://theweek.com/captured/445506/guinea-pig-delicacy

[thalassa]

Re: Sacrifices

Thanking your god for a good life. Praying to your god for a good life or better outcome of whatever is going on in your life..seems sketchy to me.

But you know I am an atheist. I have no understanding of religion at all.

When it storms, I make Sophia and Collin take a bowl outside, and sit it in the rain. When it is done raining, I make them water their plants with it (because this is how I force religion on my children ). I could just let them turn on the faucet and fill up the watering can...it would be easier and more efficient But even the water in the faucet comes from somewhere. Somewhere that is part of a great cycle of rain and river and ocean and cloud (and aquifers, and swamps, and snowpacks). How much rain does it take for a daily shower? To flush your toilet? To wash the dishes or a car? To water your plants? What do you do when you don't have enough rain to water all the plants enough? How do you choose which plants get the water, or more water?

If thanking the rain is what it takes for my children to realize they are small, but what decisions they makes have impact, and that there is a cost for every action they take, and they should be reverent for the experience of life, then we will thank the rain.

Sacrifice, whether it is animal, vegetable, mineral, or manufactured, is a form of thankfulness--its giving up something that is personally important to show reverence. I don't directly sacrifice animals to the gods...that would sort of blasphemy to me, as the gods I worship aren't literal entities like that and they don't need life (or death). But I also know that my experience isn't yours...or SilverShadow's...or Norse_Angel's, and its not fair of me to judge what your relationship (or lack of it) to the world around you (which includes the gods, if you believe in them) tells you you need to do, provided it doesn't infringe on the rights of another human being (or primate, elephant, or cetacean--I draw a line there), and its done with compassion, respect, and humility.

[sirz345]

Re: Sacrifices

I have sacrificed lambs and calves before. I purchase them from organic farms where I know the farmers and I'm certain they had a good life. I see it as blessing my food and reminder that life is in the blood and so easily can mine be shed without warning. As I have before stated in another thread, I offer the blood to my deities, and then eat the meat and use (almost) everything else that is inedible for ritual tools, crafts and planting; nothing goes to waste. I've always respected the lives of others that once breathed, even plants.

This. My own blood in ritual is another situation but I am personally acknowledging either way I'm going to eat chicken, if I kill it myself or a farmer does it is basically the same thing so dedicating just one of these birds to the gods just seems logical to me.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Sacrifices

The intellectual part of me finds it interesting that there are comments like "oh I didn't kill someone's pet", like that somehow makes it all okay. Is it better because those people won't feel the loss of their companion? Or is it better because a dog would have feelings but a pig or a chicken would not?

Personally, I don't differentiate between a dog or a chicken. Livestock animals are just as valuable to me as 'pet' animals. I have two livestock animals as beloved family pets (two ducks, to be precise) and they have just as much personality, and provide just as much companionship as any dog would. So I absolutely agree with the undercurrent that you're getting at here... just because an animal is a food animal doesn't actually make it any different to a dog or a cat. The only difference in my mind is whether the carcass can be eaten or otherwise utilized afterwards.

Or comments about 'humane' slaughter. While it's preferable to make someone's death as quick as possible, whether you break their neck, using a bolt gun on them or slit their throat....All methods seem violent to me and so therefore incapable by their very nature to be 'humane'.

You seem to have a different definition of 'humane' than the rest of the world. Humane is defined as having compassion, kindness and gentleness towards the other entity. It actually has nothing whatsoever to do with life or death, though it's most common usage is in direct relationship to the husbandry and slaughter of living creatures. Killing is not, in fact, incapable of being humane. Killing is something that can be done either humanely, or not humanely. If it is done with compassion and kindness, it is humane. Of course, the trick there is whether you can kill something with compassion... and the answer to that is yes, you can. Compassion is not about doing no harm, it's about empathy and sensitivity to the needs and feelings of the other entity.

Most animal sacrifices are given far more compassion than the animal who donated it's body parts to your makeup, perfume, washing powder, shoes and shampoo.

All I'll say to finish is this- I don't believe that a sacrifice of someone else's possession is a sacrifice, it's theft. The animals do not offer their lives, their lives are taken. There is no consent. We lose nothing out of taking their lives, but they lose everything. I don't see how that's a sacrifice that we've made, or even a sacrifice that they've made as it can't have been done willingly. It's just killing someone who would have preferred to have lived.

I actually do agree with this. Sacrifice is a terrible word for most modern animal sacrifices... we'd be far better off using the term 'offering'. However, we call it a sacrifice because that's what our ancestors called it, and for them it really WAS a sacrifice most of the time. For our ancestors, their animals were often their livelihood, their currency, and an integral part of their survival. Sacrificing even a chicken would have had a very real impact on both their finances and their ability to survive. It's important to understand the historical context when talking about the faulty use of the word 'sacrifice' when describing killing an animal in offering. I personally think it's also important to understand that historical context when performing a sacrifice, because sometimes it's just not actually achieving what you think it's going to achieve and you'd probably be better off doing something else instead. But the offering of an animal and it's blood in something like a blot is not really a sacrifice, but an offering, so there's a difference and that adds confusion to the debate.

However, I don't agree that we lose nothing out of taking their lives. Some people lose nothing... and because of that they've largely missed the point. But it's important to realise that the vast majority of people who conduct animal sacrifices (or offerings, if you prefer) are not enjoying it, are not doing it lightly, and are impacted by the taking of a life.

Killing even a small animal is not all that easy..I try not to if I can,BUT..once while working at a volunteer job,one of the regulars there was throwing a sticky trap with a mouse in it into the garbage. I took the trap with the mouse,and killed the mouse with my knife(better it died quick by my hand,than starved stuck to the trap in the garbage) The person who was throwing it in the garbage got upset,saying how cruel I was to kill the mouse like that..I could not get through to the person that it was even crueler to allow it to starve. I feel we owe animals at least a little concern for their suffering.

This is really, really common. I've also seen more than one patient who was kept alive and suffering far longer than he should have been, because the owners thought it would be cruel to euthanise. People's ideas of 'cruelty' and 'suffering' are often twisted quite badly. It's cruel for me to euthanise your pet, yet it's perfectly okay for you to keep him in a state of chronic pain and suffering, where he is laying in a pool of his own urine while you're at work because he's too tired and sore to get up? No.

You forgot the part about eating it afterwards. Something that (at least in ancient times) you were raising to eat anyhow...or in modern times, hunting to eat anyhow, or spending a lot of money (and time) to buy from a farmer and butcher yourself and eat anyhow.

Personally, I think everyone that eats meat should have to kill and gut and butcher their own food at least once in their life (and, if it wouldn't be completely cruel for no reason, I think every vegetarian should have to stomp on a mouse and toss it in a blender (since that's pretty much what happens on commercial harvesters))... We all exist on the death of something, and the reality is that modern society and technology and convenience has let us ignore that. The amount of time, effort, and energy that goes into making the food that you make into a meal is staggering, and (IMO) should be dedicated to something greater than ourselves--even if its just a moment of unselfishness where we are thankfulness to the persons that labored to get it there and the lives (plant and animal) that died so you could live.

Its more like a band dedicating their album to mom or an author dedicating a book to his wife.

Yes, yes and YES.

I can't say that any better than you just did, so I'm not gonna try. Just... yes.

Yeah, I am. That, obviously, makes my view on animal sacrifice biased. But no more biased than those who eat animals. I hope no one is fooled into thinking that just because I don't eat animals, that I'm the only one not bringing my politics to the table here. We all have a vested interest when we argue our points.

Do you use animal products in other things? Like cosmetics, soaps, clothing and the like? Do you squash spiders? Do you use bug spray?

I'm only asking because I think that it's important for everyone... not just vegetarians, but EVERYONE... to realise the extent to which death and killing things is part of us being alive. You can not exist without killing something else. People generally take one of three attitudes when faced with this... they go into denial and pretend that they are not killing things every day of their lives, they develop a hierarchy along the lines of 'dogs matter, chickens matter, but spiders and bugs don't', or they accept that they kill things every day of their lives and work out a way to live with that.

I'm in the latter category, partially because I kill more things that the average person, partially because I am sworn to a goddess of death, wyrd and consequences, and partially because animals are my spirituality and I DON'T have a hierarchy where one type of living thing is inherently more important to me than others. I prioritise life based on other parameters... not species.

So for me, whether a person is vegetarian or a meat eater actually is not that relevant to a discussion on animal sacrifice... it's the attitude that a person takes towards life and death that is relevant. Thalassa's example above of the mouse and the blender is a perfect example of this... animals are dying for our survival. Whether you killed them with your own hand or just purchased the end product DOES NOT change the fact that an animal died for your benefit.

So with that in mind, what makes animal sacrifice any different?

Should have known better than to try and reconnect with a pagan community after going veg though. I made the same excuses for myself when I'd 'offer' parts of my meaty dinner to the Gods. Like she (the cow or chicken usually) cared about whether I was 'thankful' for her flesh on my plate, whether I really 'respected' her as I shovelled bits of her abused body into my mouth. (And before anyone makes any assumptions, I grew up on a farm so I'm not some city slicker who suddenly realised animals have feelings too). I was just sort of hoping that when I woke up to everything, maybe everyone else did too. Ha ha.....

But they haven't and that's really, really hard to deal with.

It's okay to have a different opinion to us. And it's okay for us to have a different opinion to you.

But you know what... I'm not asleep. I'm not in denial. I'm not making excuses for myself. I know exactly what it is that I'm doing when I take an animal's life. I know exactly what I'm doing when I eat an animal or use a product that has animal parts in it. I know how the livestock industry works, I've worked a day in an intensive piggery, I've been to poultry farms. I've been to commercial slaughterhouses. I've seen animals in transport trucks and saleyards. I know the indirect killing that happens with commercial plant growing and harvesting. I know the impact that habitat loss has on animal lives. I am the person who wields the lethal injection when you bring you pet to the vet to have it euthanised. I am the person who steals it's life away, who ease's it's body to the ground, who wraps it up for burial or cremation, and who guides it's spirit from it's lifeless body when it's done. I have worked with and spoken to the overarching grandparent spirits of livestock animal guides as well as domestic and wild ones.

I do not need to wake up. This is my job, my life and my spiritual calling. And I know exactly what I'm doing.

In saying that, I really don't know whether the Gods want us to sacrifice or not. I'm not going to say that "Tyr told me" or "Odin spoke to me" because they didn't and if they did, it was only in whispers. But the thing that drew me to Tyr as a meat eater, is the same thing that draws me to him now- Justice. Fairness. I think those are good ideals to reach for and I don't think there is justice for an animal when we pretend that saying prayers over it, before slitting it's throat, is fair enough recompense for what we've taken. I don't think the Gods approve of us stealing from someone else, not any more at least and that remains my view on what it is to kill an animal. It's stealing the most precious thing they have (aside from when we steal their children) and doing it in the name of a God....It looks like a hollow gesture to me now.

This brings us back to the idea of what we are actually offering when we sacrifice an animal... the life, the blood, the death, the carcass, or the value that it had to us? Because those are all very different things and may or may not have an appropriate alternative that does not include killing something. I do absolutely agree that if there is an alternative to killing something, that should be offered first, but I also appreciate the fact that in some circumstances, a humanely performed animal sacrifice where the carcass is utilised afterwards is not a cruel or wasteful thing to do.

The gods obviously 'approve', because people have been doing it for thousands of years. Of course, it's possible that the trillions of people across multiple cultures who've killed things in honor of gods were all deluded... but I find that a bit doubtful. We modern people are not some epitome of cultured, respectful, educated, morally superior practices. And we aren't the first generation to hold this debate.

Also can I just point out that Tyr is perhaps not the best example to bring out when talking about the 'fairness' of animal sacrifice. Just keep in mind who was ultimately responsible for the binding of Fenrir. And for that matter, none of the Northern gods are particularly good examples when talking about theft and killing in general. The Northern gods were not, and are not, perfect moral examples of anything, really.

Most of this will be ignored and I'm never really prepared for that to happen. But at least I've said my piece.

I did not ignore you. And while your opinions have not changed mine, I appreciate them and took the time to read them and respond thoughtfully. Several of us have, in fact.

[Medusa]

Re: Sacrifices

Why can't an animal live and be sacrificed? Why must it get the short end? I mean technically it's their sacrifice then. You didn't do anything except kill something. Yeah, sacrifice is the wrong thing for what this is. I think when people practice Ramadan or Lent...that's a sacrifice. The person believing in the deity is actually giving something up for that deity.

[Louisvillian]

Re: Sacrifices

The term "sacrifice" derives from Latin meaning 'to make sacred'. Sacrifice doesn't necessarily mean the modern concept of giving up something valuable of yours. For animal sacrifices in antiquity, it meant that one was consecrating the animal to the gods and then sharing in the meal with the gods.