Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Insulted for your beliefs?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #46
    Re: Insulted for your beliefs?

    Originally posted by Redfaery View Post
    Eh...other faiths get to wear their symbols. Why can't we? I don't like to think I have to plan my wardrobe around the tastes of bigots.

    I actually wear a mala around my wrist, and also have 3 or 4 omamori on my bookbag. To be fair, no one else seems to know what they are. I've gotten compliments on my "cute bracelet" and the omamori just look like nice little Asiany charms of no religious significance.
    What does wearing something of religious symbolism have to do with planning your wardrobe for others?

    I spent six years in the Navy. Uniform regs say one necklace, not visible; one earring per ear, 4-6mm in diameter, gold for officers and chief, silver for enlisted, pearl authorized for dinner and formal dress uniforms (women only); rings, one per hand, plus wedding set, none on thumbs; tattoos also have their own set of regulations. When it comes to religious symbols:

    (a) Jewelry bearing religious inscriptions or otherwise indicating affiliation or beliefis subject to existing Service uniform regulations under the same standard that applies to jewelrythat is not of a religious nature.
    (snip)
    5. In accordance with section 774 of Reference (eg), members of the Military Services may wearitems of religious apparel while in uniform, except where the items would interfere with theperformance of military duties or the item is not neat and conservative. The MilitaryDepartments shall prescribe regulations on the wear of such items.
    Factors used to determine ifan item of religious apparel interferes with military duties include, but are not limited to, whetheror not the item:
    a. Impairs the safe and effective operation of weapons, military equipment, or machinery.
    b. Poses a health or safety hazard to the Service member wearing the religious appareland/or others.
    c. Interferes with the wear or proper function of special or protective clothing or equipment(e.g., helmets, flak jackets, flight suits, camouflaged uniforms, gas protective masks, wet suits,and crash and rescue equipment).
    d. Otherwise impairs the accomplishment of the military mission.

    6. Religious items or articles not visible or otherwise apparent may be worn with the uniformprovided they shall not interfere with the performance of the member’s military duties, asdiscussed in paragraph 5 of this enclosure, or interfere with the proper wearing of any authorizedarticle of the uniform.

    7. A complete ban on wearing any visible items of religious apparel may be appropriate undercircumstances in which the Service member’s duties, the military mission, or the maintenance ofdiscipline require absolute uniformity. For example, members may be prohibited from wearingvisible religious apparel while wearing historical or ceremonial uniforms; participating in reviewformations, parades, honor or color guards, and similar ceremonial details and functions

    DODI 1300.17

    I bring this up because its quite easy to wear religious symbols without anyone seeing them. I know this, because I did it for six years. I was also openly Pagan. And I was openly Pagan without visibly wearing any Pagan religious symbol. The idea that one needs to wear some outward sign of their religion to be open about their religion is false.

    And I point this out because, at some point (and I'm not thinking so much about NA's OP, but a post I saw of FB about some oh-so-persecuted soul, asked to remove an item of jewelry because it caused disruption with customers or coworkers)...I have to wonder, are you* really wearing it because it has meaning, or because it causes conversation and controversy?

    On one hand, I don't care why you wear something or not, I'd just like to say that the rules were followed in a way that is fair (and I NEVER had a problem being Pagan in the Navy--I had more problems being in the military as a Pagan). On the other hand, as a (at least on Friday afternoons) realist, I think its a bit naive to expect fairness to be routinely doled out simply because its the right thing to do. In which case, yeah, if you run around letting your _________ flag fly (whatever your _________ might be) simply to cause controversy, you are an asshole and you deserve to be shit on**--and this goes whether one takes after Fred Phelps or Laurie Cabot when they walk around the mall.

    This is America. If you want to express yourself, learn to embrace your offendedness. It means you have the right to expression, because so do they.


    *Universal you, not necessarily you-you.

    **And I'd like to reiterate, that I'm not saying just because you wear visible religious symbols that you are trying to cause controversy. What I'm saying is that if it is the religious symbol that is important (assuming its not physically attached to you), then (while unfair and irritating) the act of wearing the religious symbol is not lessened by it not being visible.



    ETA: Having religion is like having a penis. Its okay to have it, and its okay to play with it to make yourself happy. Its even okay to use it to make other consenting adults happy. But its never okay to take it out of your pants and wave it at strangers or small children or to force it on people that aren't interested. Also, one should never vote with their penis (or their religion). And if you make money off your penis (or your religion), you should pay taxes for it. And, when you forget to put pants on it, expect that people will take shots at it, or occasionally with it.
    Last edited by thalassa; 20 Mar 2015, 11:53.
    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
    sigpic

    Comment


      #47
      Re: Insulted for your beliefs?

      Originally posted by LunarHarvest View Post
      As much as I am for the idea that a person should be freely able to express themselves, there is something to be said for the fact that attracting attention is not always such a good thing. For me there is something to be said for blending into the crowd, and not standing out from it.

      Especially when there are so many issues and misunderstands surrounding symbols and the beliefs of pagan faiths. I personally have not shared my faith because it would not prove to be beneficial to my quality of life. Just because something is an element of my personal self does not mean that we have to incorporate it into our public self. People are pretty judgemental on elements of life deemed within the norm already, and some things, to be perfectly honest, are better kept private than public.

      In the context of the current climate regarding it (with both militant atheists and fundamentalist religious folk) there is something to be said to not go out of the way to wear a religious label, or drawing too much attention to ourselves as individuals generally. Just my opinion on the matter.
      I can understand that. It's just that for me personally, I was hiding everything about myself for the longest time, and it was eating me up inside. Like I was tearing myself apart trying to keep all these secrets so as not to draw unwanted attention, and finally, I decided I couldn't handle staying hidden like that. I was losing friends because I couldn't tell them anything personal about me. So I decided no more hiding. It's a personal choice for everyone.

      Comment


        #48
        Re: Insulted for your beliefs?

        Originally posted by Norse_Angel View Post
        I wear my hammer proudly, same with my armband. Just remember my kin, if you are ever being bullied for your beliefs by any type of Christin, their God was nailed to a cross, and ours has a hammer.
        Part of my hammer-donning prayer goes "... may I be worthy to wear this hammer and may I wear it proudly". I kind of wish I had the kind of run-in you had. :devilish: I probably would have said just that... "hey lady my God carries a hammer, yours was nailed to a cross... wanna discuss? But I'll pray to Thor that he doesn't aim his lightning your way for your blasphemy". Two can play as easily as one. :nod:
        śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
        śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

        Comment


          #49
          Re: Insulted for your beliefs?

          Originally posted by Redfaery View Post
          I haven't claimed indignation at anything. People will be jerks for all sorts of reasons, not just religion. If I removed all my habits that would set off the jerks in this world, I'd be left with very little of my identity, given that I'm female, queer, genderqueer, and have autism.
          My apologies - I did not intend to be accusatory or insulting, or anything.

          It's that I REALLY just don't understand. I'm a realist. I deal with what is. Idealists confuse me, because they seem to want to live in a world that doesn't exist (we should be able to... - yes, that would be nice, but we don't live in that world). Realists and idealists use the same words, but speak a different language.

          As a realist, all I can say is: if you do X, Y is likely to happen. Know this before you do X, so you can be prepared for Y to follow. It IS a choice. Everybody is responsible for his/her choices.
          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

          Comment


            #50
            Re: Insulted for your beliefs?

            Originally posted by thalassa View Post
            I bring this up because its quite easy to wear religious symbols without anyone seeing them. I know this, because I did it for six years. I was also openly Pagan. And I was openly Pagan without visibly wearing any Pagan religious symbol. The idea that one needs to wear some outward sign of their religion to be open about their religion is false.

            And I point this out because, at some point (and I'm not thinking so much about NA's OP, but a post I saw of FB about some oh-so-persecuted soul, asked to remove an item of jewelry because it caused disruption with customers or coworkers)...I have to wonder, are you* really wearing it because it has meaning, or because it causes conversation and controversy?

            On one hand, I don't care why you wear something or not, I'd just like to say that the rules were followed in a way that is fair (and I NEVER had a problem being Pagan in the Navy--I had more problems being in the military as a Pagan). On the other hand, as a (at least on Friday afternoons) realist, I think its a bit naive to expect fairness to be routinely doled out simply because its the right thing to do. In which case, yeah, if you run around letting your _________ flag fly (whatever your _________ might be) simply to cause controversy, you are an asshole and you deserve to be shit on**--and this goes whether one takes after Fred Phelps or Laurie Cabot when they walk around the mall.

            This is America. If you want to express yourself, learn to embrace your offendedness. It means you have the right to expression, because so do they.


            *Universal you, not necessarily you-you.

            **And I'd like to reiterate, that I'm not saying just because you wear visible religious symbols that you are trying to cause controversy. What I'm saying is that if it is the religious symbol that is important (assuming its not physically attached to you), then (while unfair and irritating) the act of wearing the religious symbol is not lessened by it not being visible.



            ETA: Having religion is like having a penis. Its okay to have it, and its okay to play with it to make yourself happy. Its even okay to use it to make other consenting adults happy. But its never okay to take it out of your pants and wave it at strangers or small children or to force it on people that aren't interested. Also, one should never vote with their penis (or their religion). And if you make money off your penis (or your religion), you should pay taxes for it. And, when you forget to put pants on it, expect that people will take shots at it, or occasionally with it.
            Hmmm....I'm wondering if we're all on the same page here. I'd like to wear a clearer symbol of my religion (should one exist) because, well, my religion makes me happy, and it's part of who I am. It's the same way I like to wear a shirt with my alma mater on it. I went to Guilford College. I'm not going to attack anyone who went to Elon or UNCG. Nor will I necessarily even try to convince an uncertain highschooler that they MUST GO TO GUILFORD COLLEGE or they will NEVER GET A JOB.

            In the same way, my classmate here at State is Roman Catholic and wears a good number of medals around her neck on a chain. I don't assume she's trying to convert me by wearing them. I don't look at them and go "oh, she's thinks I'm damned." I just see someone wearing a necklace.

            And yes, you can wear a pagan symbol and hide it. The problem is, what if you don't hide it well enough? What if someone sees it? What if the wrong person sees it? Because I don't think that "I disagree with your religion." is the same as "you're going to hell" honestly.

            ETA: B. De Corbin - You're good. I misinterpreted you.

            Comment


              #51
              Re: Insulted for your beliefs?

              That being said, there are some things which are better left within one's private life than public life are there not? I feel like going out of our way to broadcast religious views might cross that line a little bit too much, but that's just my opinion.

              Comment


                #52
                Re: Insulted for your beliefs?

                Originally posted by LunarHarvest View Post
                That being said, there are some things which are better left within one's private life than public life are there not? I feel like going out of our way to broadcast religious views might cross that line a little bit too much, but that's just my opinion.
                I think this is true as well...but what counts as "too much" varies from region to region; even within my home state of North Carolina, what's "good taste" varies from county to county, city to city, based largely on socioeconomic status. In my hometown where I was raised, it's not unusual to invite people to church with you, to wear big religious T-shirts, etc. It's just the way things are done. No one thinks anything about it. Which is why I get a little defensive in conversations like this...there's so much that is varied from case to case.
                Last edited by Redfaery; 20 Mar 2015, 13:36. Reason: word choice

                Comment


                  #53
                  Re: Insulted for your beliefs?

                  Originally posted by Norse_Angel View Post
                  How many people here still hide their beliefs to the majority of people in the outside world?
                  Quite frankly, I'm very upfront what my gods and how I worship, because I'm extremely proud of it.
                  I'll come back to this in a minute...


                  First, yes, people who are strong in their faith and confident tend to not bother others. They also tend to be quiet with their faith and loud with their actions. Most people of the world fall into this category. They are ok with you and you are ok with them.

                  People who are the loudest need the world to believe like them. So they can tame their fears and doubts. If you disrupt their fragile belief system with a crack they will attack you out of fear disguised as hate.

                  Now Norse, one can be proud. But no one really cares about your religion except you. Be the loudest, get the first rock thrown. Don't be obnoxious.

                  I'm a Satanist. I have been since I was 15 and am going on 45 this October. A few of my close friends know. No one else. Then again they also rarely know I'm an atheist. In fact them and I probably have inkling of each other's religions because it's not that important for us to know each other's religion. It's important for us to know our own. Religion thoughts are private. People will know who you are through your deeds.
                  Satan is my spirit animal

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Re: Insulted for your beliefs?

                    Originally posted by Redfaery View Post
                    ETA: B. De Corbin - You're good. I misinterpreted you.
                    Thanks!

                    Let me address something else you you've said.

                    As with you, my spiritual stuff is a part of what I am.

                    But not what I am.

                    I am also the things I do, the things I say, the friends I have, the enemies (if I have any...) that I have, what I am to my wife and my family, the things that they are to me - and much else.

                    If displaying my spiritual stuff distracts people from those other things, I don't want to do it. My spiritual stuff is good - it helps me be what I am.

                    But I'd so much prefer to be judged on what I am than on what I believe.

                    I don't hide any part of me. I just remove a fairly minor distraction from the view of those who aren't able to handle it, like wearing pants in a church.

                    I can't expect people to be better than they are - they are what they are, just as all of us are - but I can, at least, help them be better by not making it harder.
                    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Re: Insulted for your beliefs?

                      Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                      Thanks!

                      Let me address something else you you've said.

                      As with you, my spiritual stuff is a part of what I am.

                      But not what I am.

                      I am also the things I do, the things I say, the friends I have, the enemies (if I have any...) that I have, what I am to my wife and my family, the things that they are to me - and much else.

                      If displaying my spiritual stuff distracts people from those other things, I don't want to do it. My spiritual stuff is good - it helps me be what I am.

                      But I'd so much prefer to be judged on what I am than on what I believe.

                      I don't hide any part of me. I just remove a fairly minor distraction from the view of those who aren't able to handle it, like wearing pants in a church.

                      I can't expect people to be better than they are - they are what they are, just as all of us are - but I can, at least, help them be better by not making it harder.
                      Ah....I can understand that much better. Thank you for explaining.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Re: Insulted for your beliefs?

                        Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                        Now Norse, one can be proud. But no one really cares about your religion except you. Be the loudest, get the first rock thrown. Don't be obnoxious.
                        I agree full with that.
                        "In the shade now tall forms are advancing,
                        And their wan hands like snowflakes in the moonlight are gleaming;
                        They beckon, they whisper, 'Oh! strong armed in valor,
                        The pale guests await thee - mead foams in Valhalla.'"
                        - Finn's Saga

                        http://hoodednorseman.tumblr.com/

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Re: Insulted for your beliefs?

                          Originally posted by Norse_Angel View Post
                          [ATTACH=CONFIG]3870[/ATTACH]
                          I did it
                          for anyone who was wondering, yeah this is what I look like
                          Not one to fall for heathens, but damn, looking good there

                          As for my experiences... I'm openly a Satanist to most people. I've never been insulted, but Jehova's Witnesses have quite the funny look on their faces when they ask me what do I believe in :P. And general creeped out reaction at times. Anyways I guess a tall, long haired metalhead that tells you he's a Satanist induces fear or confusion, rather than a violent reaction.

                          Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Re: Insulted for your beliefs?

                            We heathens can be very appealing. Get passed the smell of ale, and surge to randomly destroy things, and I'm quite the prize.
                            "In the shade now tall forms are advancing,
                            And their wan hands like snowflakes in the moonlight are gleaming;
                            They beckon, they whisper, 'Oh! strong armed in valor,
                            The pale guests await thee - mead foams in Valhalla.'"
                            - Finn's Saga

                            http://hoodednorseman.tumblr.com/

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Re: Insulted for your beliefs?

                              Originally posted by Norse_Angel View Post
                              We heathens can be very appealing. Get passed the smell of ale, and surge to randomly destroy things, and I'm quite the prize.
                              Really its the facial fur that ends it for me when it comes to many Heathen guys (and non-Heathens since its a *thing* now)--around here most of the non-military ones sport enough beard to knit a sweater. I won't quibble over a little bit (the hubby and I have a deal about a mutual not bitching about the other one not shaving), but Stonewall Jackson-esque hipster beards are a turn-off.
                              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                              sigpic

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Re: Insulted for your beliefs?

                                Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                                Really its the facial fur that ends it for me when it comes to many Heathen guys (and non-Heathens since its a *thing* now)--around here most of the non-military ones sport enough beard to knit a sweater. I won't quibble over a little bit (the hubby and I have a deal about a mutual not bitching about the other one not shaving), but Stonewall Jackson-esque hipster beards are a turn-off.
                                Sadly, my genes were not fair to me. When it comes, it shall grow. In our belief, it is the freemen who wear their beard, and those who were slaved were made to shave clean.
                                "In the shade now tall forms are advancing,
                                And their wan hands like snowflakes in the moonlight are gleaming;
                                They beckon, they whisper, 'Oh! strong armed in valor,
                                The pale guests await thee - mead foams in Valhalla.'"
                                - Finn's Saga

                                http://hoodednorseman.tumblr.com/

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X