So... how do you feel about human sacrifice?

[Ophidia]

Re: So... how do you feel about human sacrifice?

But then you run into the problem of "Who's to say places like Africa deserve to die, whereas white middle-class America can live in comfort?" ...If someone I loved volunteered for any number of things, I would grieve, and I would move on. From my POV, having a loved one join the army to go to war is damn nearly the same as having them volunteer to kill themselves, and lots of husbands and wives and mothers and fathers deal with their loved ones going off to war. I'm not saying we should all jump up and sacrifice ourselves to some gods that may or may not even exist, but if someone, a zealot, say, is so firmly convinced that this is their way to salvation, or to their culture's salvation, well, fuck. Just go for it, then. What if they wanted to do it so badly it made them terribly upset? Unreasonable, miserable, and unconsolable? A person's gotta do what a person's gotta do.

This, so much this!

Why is Perze excused from her beliefs because of depression, but I seem not to be? Is it more acceptable for someone with a psychological issue to think these thoughts than it is for someone without depression?

I don't get the impression that I'm being somehow excused for believing as I do. I think what Alice is saying is that she feels that if a person wishes to sacrifice their life (or commit suicide, however you want to put it) that person must have a mental disorder and there can be no other valid reason. I am merely 'proof'. Of course I believe people have the right to choose the time and manner of their own death - I have a mental/emotional disorder.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: So... how do you feel about human sacrifice?

Aren't suicide bombers willing human sacrifices - assuming that they do it "for their religion"?

And - which is more interesting, and more troubling - don't they force the people around them (when the bomb goes off) to be unwilling sacrifices to their "God"?

[Ophidia]

Re: So... how do you feel about human sacrifice?

And - which is more interesting, and more troubling - don't they force the people around them (when the bomb goes off) to be unwilling sacrifices to their "God"?

I think I mentioned suicide bombers specifically - it's ok to choose the time and manner of your own death, just don't take any unwilling passengers.

I'm also against coercion. Just like it's wrong to kidnap or buy a child or other person and sacrifice them, it's not ok to coerce people into agreeing to it. "Hey, little kid, if you lay down on this big square block and close your eyes, you'll get a Nintendo DS". A direct approach like this probably won't work with most adults, but I believe that everyone has a price. It's not fair to use that price against someone when it comes to sacrificing them. It's why I feel heavy recruiting campaigns in largely poor, minority neighborhoods are unethical. The various branches are being extremely exploitative by using hopes and dreams of a better future against these impressionable kids. Yeah, you'll get a great education, your resume will look fantastic, you'll be a hero - if your GPA is high enough to get you out of the infantry.

[Moody Thursday]

Re: So... how do you feel about human sacrifice?

For me, it's along the same lines as any other form of legal consent. If you are, by the local laws, 'of age', considered competent and capable of making legal decisions for yourself, and you volunteer for being sacrificed to a God or an ideal (like say... a soldier making a contract with a military body...) or to make it rain or stop raining, then it's a willing sacrifice. Perfectly ok by me. You want to be killed in the name of whatever, you go for it. I think people should have the right to choose the means of their own deaths, as long as it doesn't place anyone else directly in harm's way. Sacrificing yourself to take out an enemy is probably bordering on even my broad ethical acceptance levels - suicide bombers aren't cool with me. Too much potential for collateral damage.

I see what you mean. But have you considered that (especially with religious groups), this "willing" sacrifice might be forced upon someone? I'm talking about brainwashing, people thinking they have to or something bad could happen, again I bring up metal handicaps, gullibility, and other forms of coercion. Because, honestly, a religious group that does human sacrifice is going to be trusted to be upstanding and moral? Trusted to exercise good judgment?

I agree with Al!ce when she says: "If someone is willing to be sacrificed they're probably depressed and even if they're not, what they need is (psychiatric) help."

And what exactly does anyone achieve by willingly "sacrificing" themselves anyhow? It seems to me like back-pedaling, going back to dark ages when ignorance reigned~ definitely no forward-thinking involved.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: So... how do you feel about human sacrifice?

What about a suicide cult, like Heaven's Gate?

Wouldn't that be a willing self sacrifice?

[Moody Thursday]

Re: So... how do you feel about human sacrifice?

What about a suicide cult, like Heaven's Gate?

Wouldn't that be a willing self sacrifice?

LoL Good name.
But, doesn't the word "sacrifice" mean that they're giving something up for the good of someone/something else? Suicide just sounds like they want to die- selfish. That's not sacrificing anything. I think taking your month's income and giving it to the needy is more of a sacrifice.

[Corvus]

Re: So... how do you feel about human sacrifice?

What about a suicide cult, like Heaven's Gate?

Wouldn't that be a willing self sacrifice?

I don't think this is a human sacrifice mostly because they wanted to escape from their bodies and believed that their minds would more or less remain. In effect it's not a sacrifice because the idea of death to them wouldn't be the same.

[Ophidia]

Re: So... how do you feel about human sacrifice?

I see what you mean. But have you considered that (especially with religious groups), this "willing" sacrifice might be forced upon someone? I'm talking about brainwashing, people thinking they have to or something bad could happen, again I bring up metal handicaps, gullibility, and other forms of coercion. Because, honestly, a religious group that does human sacrifice is going to be trusted to be upstanding and moral? Trusted to exercise good judgment?

Many, many civilizations throughout the ages practiced human sacrifice, all over the world - and many of those civilizations are ones modern Pagans (and modern society in general) look to for inspiration. We tend to overlook the 'bad stuff' and focus on the things we find admirable, but it doesn't change history. For the record, coercion and brainwashing do not a willing sacrifice make.Generally speaking, being able to give legal consent may include people with certain types of mental disabilities (ones that do not preclude judgment or the ability to tell the difference between 'right' and 'wrong'). I have a mental illness, but I can still be called in for jury duty, drive a car, own a gun, work for the government - just because I'm depressed doesn't mean I can go out and shoot someone else in the head and expect to get away with it by virtue of mental incompetence.

And what exactly does anyone achieve by willingly "sacrificing" themselves anyhow? It seems to me like back-pedaling, going back to dark ages when ignorance reigned~ definitely no forward-thinking involved.

Think about this guy:



That guy placed himself in a very precarious position. He had no reason to believe that his standing in front of those tanks would achieve anything - all he had was hope. The showdown in Tianamen Square was not like our Occupy Wall Street movement, where the protestors knew they might be harassed or kicked around, but the risk of being shot in the face with a tank was relatively low. Chinese citizens were dying at the hands of its military. Journalists from all over the world placed themselves in grave danger as well to show the world what was happening, and many of them lost their lives in the process.

Self-sacrifice happens every day - just because you don't see it or you're sheltered from it doesn't mean that it's not happening. Many people (like the journalists shooting the footage of Tianamen Square) thought that man was absolutely insane. If you can find some of the video footage, the tank operator actually swerved to go around him, and the man stepped in front of it again. His protest was interrupted by a security agent tackling him off the street, and he probably died later, quietly and alone - but the world still saw what he did. There are differences in placing yourself in front of a tank to make a brazen statement against tyranny and asking a God to take your life to save others, but they are both honorable choices.

Life has power. As a human, because we are conscious of our lives, how short they are, how little time we have to do anything worthwhile, we see our lives as being even more precious than that of say, cattle and goats. Sometimes when events are larger than we are, nothing but our own life will matter to the overpowering forces we face.

[thalassa]

Re: So... how do you feel about human sacrifice?

To bring another side to this coin, I agreed with Perze, and I haven't got a depression issue, or bipolarity, or any kind of mental issues whatsoever. I'm not suicidal, and I generally love life, and all the things that live on earth.

Just like I am pro-choice, and I am pro-capital punishment, I'm pro for willingness. What a person decides to do with their life is their concern, and their concern only.

(snip)
But he willingly did it. Gets one more stupid fuck off the planet, and no harm done. Besides, it's never nice to be rude to the gods, and if they demand a sacrifice, well...

This.

I'm not depressed, and I'm not opposed to an adult capable of consent doing what they want to with their life, even if it means ending for their faith, provided it doesn't harm anyone else in the process.

Kidnapping and murdering children, on the other hand is something completely different. And vile. Deserving of everything Masked mentuioned previously.

[Moody Thursday]

Re: So... how do you feel about human sacrifice?

Many, many civilizations throughout the ages practiced human sacrifice, all over the world - and many of those civilizations are ones modern Pagans (and modern society in general) look to for inspiration. We tend to overlook the 'bad stuff' and focus on the things we find admirable, but it doesn't change history. For the record, coercion and brainwashing do not a willing sacrifice make.Generally speaking, being able to give legal consent may include people with certain types of mental disabilities (ones that do not preclude judgment or the ability to tell the difference between 'right' and 'wrong'). I have a mental illness, but I can still be called in for jury duty, drive a car, own a gun, work for the government - just because I'm depressed doesn't mean I can go out and shoot someone else in the head and expect to get away with it by virtue of mental incompetence.

Think about this guy:

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Self-sacrifice happens every day - just because you don't see it or you're sheltered from it doesn't mean that it's not happening. Many people (like the journalists shooting the footage of Tianamen Square) thought that man was absolutely insane.

To go with my point of forward-thinking, I realize that Paganism stems from older religions, but as such, we pick what works and discard what doesn't. That's how progress works. I don't believe in keeping traditions for the sake of tradition, otherwise the KKK would still be having a ball.

And again, I don't think an organization that condones self-sacrifice (in the form of suicide) is exactly something to be trusted. It's not unfathomable to think such organization could become corrupt in their ways, whether it be with coercion or taking advantage of others. Many reputable organizations have become corrupt in the past, so it's not so unthinkable.

And no, I don't agree with you using "tank man" as an example. These people were pushed and this was an act of bravery, not a suicide. He stood there in protest, to "speak up" against the injustice going on, and though he knew the risks (I assume he knew) it was by no means a suicide.

[Caelia]

Re: So... how do you feel about human sacrifice?

Is there really a difference, though, between bravery and self-sacrifice?

[Moody Thursday]

Re: So... how do you feel about human sacrifice?

Is there really a difference, though, between bravery and self-sacrifice?

To me, there absolutely is. The kind of human sacrifice that would be ritualistic doesn't seem like bravery to me. We all die~ there's nothing brave about it. You can go kicking and screaming or quietly, but we all do it.
But not all of us can stand up for something we truly believe in, the way "tank man" did. Not all of us get to be brave.

That's why I don't think he's a good example. I think of this man, at the end of his rope just sick with what's going on, standing up for himself and his family... Then I think of a guy saying "okay, I'm gonna kill myself for God so-and-so" and it just doesn't seem like the same thing. One guy is standing up for what he believes in, because he does want to live life, and he wants to live it free of injustices. And the other guy is... I dunno, poisoning himself because a volcano god might like it?
Or even like the person mentioned in the 1st post~ human sacrifice in Uganda. I see no bravery in that. Only ignorance and waste. Even if the guy is holding the knife to kill himself. I hold no reverence for suicide, because living life is way more difficult than just giving up and dying.

[Caelia]

Re: So... how do you feel about human sacrifice?

To me, there absolutely is. The kind of human sacrifice that would be ritualistic doesn't seem like bravery to me.

How are we defining ritual? Secular ritualistic sacrifice isn't any less of a sacrifice, and the willingness to give up your life isn't any less brave.

We all die~ there's nothing brave about it. You can go kicking and screaming or quietly, but we all do it.

What does this have to do with anything?

But not all of us can stand up for something we truly believe in, the way "tank man" did. Not all of us get to be brave.

So if someone willingly gives their life because they believe it will benefit others it's not brave unless it's some ideal of indeterminable social acceptability?

That's why I don't think he's a good example. I think of this man, at the end of his rope just sick with what's going on, standing up for himself and his family... Then I think of a guy saying "okay, I'm gonna kill myself for God so-and-so" and it just doesn't seem like the same thing. One guy is standing up for what he believes in, because he does want to live life, and he wants to live it free of injustices. And the other guy is... I dunno, poisoning himself because a volcano god might like it?
Or even like the person mentioned in the 1st post~ human sacrifice in Uganda. I see no bravery in that. Only ignorance and waste. Even if the guy is holding the knife to kill himself. I hold no reverence for suicide, because living life is way more difficult than just giving up and dying.

While I agree forcing someone into sacrifice, especially a child sold for such purposes, is horrific and reprehensible, I see willing participants of sacrifice as willing to give up something for the greater good. You've already admitted one form of sacrifice is "brave", we just have to determine what is socially acceptable about it.

[MaskedOne]

Re: So... how do you feel about human sacrifice?

Courage is a trait. Self sacrifice is an act. Regarding tank guy, he chose to risk his life not surrender it. Don't get me wrong, playing chicken with a tank is courageous but there was always a chance the tank would stop or dodge. If he'd played bullet catcher with his body, that'd be one thing thing but the goal of staring down the tank was to make the tank flinch and he succeeded at it. I don't really class that as self sacrifice at that point. Courageous as all hell, yes. Self sacrifice, not yet.

[Caelia]

Re: So... how do you feel about human sacrifice?

Actually there's speculation that Tank Man was executed shortly after the incident.