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    #61
    Re: African-Americans Are Boycotting The Oscars

    There is indeed a war on women, and a lot of the ones waging it are women. There are young'uns out there saying things like "I don't need feminism because I can get a great job and support myself." Um, duh, honey. That is what we fought for. In my lifetime we couldn't wear pants to school, had separate help-wanted ads for male & female, couldn't get a credit card, buy a house, or get a lease without a man's signature. I am incredibly fortunate and grateful that these things changed, or should I say unfolded, just as I was approaching the age to need them! (Except getting my tubes tied - I tried that at age 27 and was refused!)

    What a lot of today's sentiments stem from is egotistical thinking. "I feel so wonderful when I see the color blue, it should be everyone's only color choice, and they will feel as great as I do, and I have to make sure everyone knows about it." - only with religion.
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      #62
      Re: African-Americans Are Boycotting The Oscars

      Originally posted by Hawkfeathers View Post
      There is indeed a war on women, and a lot of the ones waging it are women. There are young'uns out there saying things like "I don't need feminism because I can get a great job and support myself." Um, duh, honey. That is what we fought for. In my lifetime we couldn't wear pants to school, had separate help-wanted ads for male & female, couldn't get a credit card, buy a house, or get a lease without a man's signature. I am incredibly fortunate and grateful that these things changed, or should I say unfolded, just as I was approaching the age to need them! (Except getting my tubes tied - I tried that at age 27 and was refused!)
      When I was in the military: I've had a penis waved in my freaking face at work to make a comment about my "needing to give head to get ahead", I've been called any number of names (b****, c***, etc) for being good at my job, I've had to work with males that refused to do their job with a female, I've had perfect strangers yell at me for being an abomination to god for being a whore as a woman in the military. I've had my @$$ smacked, my bobs grabbed, and even a couple of butt grab-reach around--in uniform, and on duty. And that is without even considering the number of people that claimed I slept with them vs the number I actually slept with (honestly, the only nice thing I say here is that at least no one ever accused me of using my gender to my benefit--I worked my a** off for every inch I got). This is the reality of being a woman in the military as little as 10 years ago.

      In return, I've broken a nose or three, called a mom and a wife (#1 was pissed, #2 in denial), and humiliated grown men to the point where they cried in public. Because "complaining" (aka, trying to file a grievance through official channels) was met with "suck it up" and "maybe you are being too sensitive" and my personal favorite "do you really want to ruin the career of a man with a family?"

      So, when people tell me "oh, women don't need women's rights" or "it should be about equal rights not feminism", guess what? The day when we decide that Black Lives Matter is the day that we actually realize that all lives actually matter. And the day that we have actually achieved feminism, is the day that we will actually have equal rights regardless of biological sex, sexual identity, or gender identity. Until then, all we have are a bunch of people that think they aren't racist because they have a black friend and that they aren't sexist because they love their mother.
      Last edited by thalassa; 27 Jan 2016, 18:18.
      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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        #63
        Re: African-Americans Are Boycotting The Oscars

        Originally posted by thalassa View Post
        When I was in the military: I've had a penis waved in my freaking face at work to make a comment about my "needing to give head to get ahead", I've been called any number of names (b****, c***, etc) for being good at my job, I've had to work with males that refused to do their job with a female, I've had perfect strangers yell at me for being an abomination to god for being a whore as a woman in the military. I've had my @$$ smacked, my bobs grabbed, and even a couple of butt grab-reach around--in uniform, and on duty. This is the reality of being a woman in the military as little as 10 years ago.

        In return, I've broken a nose or three, called a mom and a wife (#1 was pissed, #2 in denial), and humiliated grown men to the point where they cried in public. Because "complaining" (aka, trying to file a grievance through official channels) was met with "suck it up" and "maybe you are being too sensitive" and my personal favorite "do you really want to ruin the career of a man with a family?"

        So, when people tell me "oh, women don't need women's rights" or "it should be about equal rights not feminism", guess what? The day when we decide that Black Lives Matter is the day that we actually realize that all lives actually matter. And the day that we have actually achieved feminism, is the day that we will actually have equal rights regardless of biological sex, sexual identity, or gender identity. Until then, all we have are a bunch of people that think they aren't racist because they have a black friend and that they aren't sexist because they love their mother.
        The things some people do are ridiculous. You're a strong person, anyway, glad you didn't put up with that BS. I knew someone in the past who would use me as her "black friend" so she could say racist things on the slick.
        "Turn, and look in the mirror. What do you see?" Her own brown eyes stared back at her until she was nothing but a blur.

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          #64
          Re: African-Americans Are Boycotting The Oscars

          I had a lot of similar experiences at work when I was in my 20's. I look back on some of this crap and just shake my head. Life is hard enough to navigate without people making it worse because they're on a power trip.
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            #65
            Re: African-Americans Are Boycotting The Oscars

            Perhaps ironic but my most visible situation involving women in the work place actually occurred when I was working for the county school system more than in the military. We were in conference when my boss asked me if I agreed with the proposal my co-worker had presented. Told him point blank she had presented to me and I fully agreed with it and supported her in both her recommendation and conclusions she had reached. He asked me if I would be willing to present it and told him I'd be willing to be present while she presented as it was her idea not mine.

            Yet the part that got me was the Director (our boss) and myself were the only males in that office. So I was sort of surprised when I over heard the executive secretary pull the woman aside to find out how it went but more so to find out if I took credit for it or supported her position. I understood the disparity that was felt in that I got a bit more respect in an education field because I had a degree and the rest of the officer workers didn't. But it never occurred to me that the other's even though i'd not support my co-worker or acknowledge her for the work she did. A few years later said co-worker had left and called back asking a couple of the ladies to write her a letter of recommendation. When I heard about it I wrote one as I was the more senior person at the time who worked with her and sent her both a signed copy via email and notarized copy via mail. I again was surprised when she told me I was more than generous with my write up and thanked me yet all I did was state exactly what she did and how well she did it. Even being told her husband replied that he didn't realize just what she did and how well she did it as he though she hardly did anything in the job.

            Was definitely an eye opening experience going from a heavily male dominated career to one where it was more like being the token male in the office.
            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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              #66
              Re: African-Americans Are Boycotting The Oscars

              Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
              Was definitely an eye opening experience going from a heavily male dominated career to one where it was more like being the token male in the office.
              The sexism in the civilian workplace that I have encountered is much more subtle than what was (and to a slowly improving degree still is) in the military. The blatantness of the harassment in the military makes it easier to point out, the other is insidious and harder to fight. This is the same sort of problem that makes racism so difficult to eliminate.

              A lot of it I see now as a parent...how my daughter vs son are treated at school, how toys and clothes are marketed, how other kids and parents act. It that way, it hasn't changed much since I was in school, except that today I have some faith that a teacher that told their 8th grade algebra class that "I don't expect the girls to do very well or really learn anything here," and then proceeded to make sure they didn't all year long, would probably be fired.

              What I find amusing and sad though, is how conservatives like to turn this into a "oh, you are against traditional values" or "oh, you are against women having REAL choices" argument. Especially I see this often since a lot more military wives seem to be SAHMs than I've encountered otherwise. You know what...being a SAHM is a lot of work. It's tedious, mind-numbingly boring work...interspersed with a helluva lot of free time (especially once the kids are in school)...and guess what, it's the exact same work that I do when I come home from my 8-12 hour work day, that I do after I've taken the kids to gymnastics and soccer or violin and piano, that I do before they wake up in the morning, that I do when they go out to play with their friends. And I know this because I did it for about 2 1/2 years.

              The only difference between being a SAHM and being a working mom is that I have less free time (and more money), and more mental stimulation and purpose outside of my children as a working mom, and had (less money but) more fun with my kids and more time to do arts and crafts (field trips to the beach, the museum, etc), but ultimately little mental challenge, when I was a SAHM. Look, if you WANT to stay at home (mom OR dad---and this is where feminism comes in, a feminist doesn't care which parent wants to do it), stay at home. I mean, I could have continued to stay home and baked cookies, drank tea, blogged, taken my kids to the beach every day, kept my house clean, and done fun kitchen experiments...but when my daughter was old enough to start saying things like "I want to be like you when I grow up, mommy" I really didn't want her to think that all she really had to do to be like me was pop out a couple of babies, know how to cut coupons to make the paycheck stretch, and teach them wild edibles. I've known too many women that did that and found themselves and their kids screwed when the man of the house lost his job, found a younger model, turned out to be an abusive jerk, got hurt, or died.
              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                #67
                Re: African-Americans Are Boycotting The Oscars

                Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                The sexism in the civilian workplace that I have encountered is much more subtle than what was (and to a slowly improving degree still is) in the military. The blatantness of the harassment in the military makes it easier to point out, the other is insidious and harder to fight. This is the same sort of problem that makes racism so difficult to eliminate.
                I know when I entered the military in 78 we were told there are only two types of women in the military. Those that were lesbian or those that were ugly and looking for husbands. there was no other options so to speak for classifying women and that held true pretty much as a behind the scenes attitude for the next 23 years. Have to admit though in some ratings it was far worse with the attitude that the women took shore billets so the guys did back to back sea tours with no chance of getting a shore assignment.

                Things definitely held to the 1,000 good deeds were wiped out by one bad one. So all the good women were tarnished with the same brush used to explain the actions of a few bad ones. I recall I was an E-6 and had a young Petty Officer come up to me and ask me to stop the guys wolf whistling at her. She had been raped and it always brought that back to her mind. So I called my guys together laid down the law and what I would do if I heard of it again. Yet the other E-6 in the office said that was bs on her part and she should just deal with it. Was a rude awakening to how his view as a shipboard sailor was different than mine as both sea and shore.

                I do agree though that in the military it was more in your face and very much driven or endorsed by the rank structure. If the Chief tolerated it then the rest of the shop did and usually if the Chief did it was because the higher chain did as well. Yet in the civilian sector it seemed it was more hidden in the working structure. Yet it also seemed more female to female than actual male to male in many of the things I was seeing. Yet the statistics of who held what positions the school system was very top heavy with male leadership though the elementary schools were especially heavy with female teachers and principles and staff.

                A lot of it I see now as a parent...how my daughter vs son are treated at school, how toys and clothes are marketed, how other kids and parents act. It that way, it hasn't changed much since I was in school, except that today I have some faith that a teacher that told their 8th grade algebra class that "I don't expect the girls to do very well or really learn anything here," and then proceeded to make sure they didn't all year long, would probably be fired.
                Sad part is one would hope for that yet I think it's still driven in many ways by your location and geographical area. Seen things here in West Virginia and parts of rural Virginia that would never fly in more populated areas. The after school activities and youth sports can be a real eye opener when you see how those play out. It's like boys baseball girls softball yet many of the adult leagues are softball and composed of all males. Sort of an upside down system in that capacity but it applies to nearly all sports.

                What I find amusing and sad though, is how conservatives like to turn this into a "oh, you are against traditional values" or "oh, you are against women having REAL choices" argument. Especially I see this often since a lot more military wives seem to be SAHMs than I've encountered otherwise. You know what...being a SAHM is a lot of work. It's tedious, mind-numbingly boring work...interspersed with a helluva lot of free time (especially once the kids are in school)...and guess what, it's the exact same work that I do when I come home from my 8-12 hour work day, that I do after I've taken the kids to gymnastics and soccer or violin and piano, that I do before they wake up in the morning, that I do when they go out to play with their friends. And I know this because I did it for about 2 1/2 years.
                I know once I became disabled and had to stop working I started doing a lot of the house work. it was amazing how people could justify and accept me being at home versus a typical stay at home mom. Especially in the sense of time management and getting things done vice sitting and watching TV for instance.

                I do agree that a lot of military wives are SAHM's. Though in truth I think the reality is more so due to many having a difficult time getting employment due to being military spouses and the frequent re-locations. There are only so many slots on the bases and those many times seem filled by rank and an almost nepotism type selecting process. Especially weighted against many of the very junior enlisted spouses who probably need the income worse as many are forced to reside off base due to housing restrictions and limitations.

                One thing I find very disadvantaged for women is credit. I know its changing but its still slanted against them when it comes to getting their own credit, especially if married.
                I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                  #68
                  Re: African-Americans Are Boycotting The Oscars

                  "How can a woman want another woman to reach her full potential but won't let her have control over her uterus? It's a pretty clear question. I don't want to get into right and wrong here. It will just kill this thread. I just want to know how a conservative woman can justify telling another woman what she can or cannot do with her body. It bothers the hell out of me."

                  I totally understand what you are getting at. I too don't want this to devolve. But, at the risk of creating all sorts of hullabaloo let me ask you this; why doesn't the unborn child get a say and who is going to protect them?

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  "I'd like to know where you get the idea that there is not a war on women?? Maybe could it possibly be because you as a male don't have to deal the issues that we do so you can't fully understand them(however I feel that plenty of guys on here see it)?"


                  I do agree that there is a great divide in the pay gape etc... and I think that it is wrong to do so. I also agree that reproductive rights for women are not on par with those of men. I don't think there is a "war" on women. I believe that women are still behind the line but that hopefully this will change. Anyone anywhere can claim a war on their own group but it doesn't make it so. Yes the discrimination gap is huge and needs to be closed, but a war? Mmmmm hard to imagine.

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                    #69
                    Re: African-Americans Are Boycotting The Oscars

                    Eh, sorry, nevermind.

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                      #70
                      Re: African-Americans Are Boycotting The Oscars

                      Hmmm after reading some of the other posts here maybe people have a point about a war on women. Perhaps as a male not seeing it in any setting growing up it is difficult to fathom. My mother is a very successful CPA with her own firm and has been for over 40 years. She built the firm to where it is and has many high profile clients. She also more or less raised my siblings and I on her own. So seeing this growing up perhaps has placed rose colored glasses over my eyes.

                      - - - Updated - - -

                      And by the way, I not only respect but I revere, the stay at home parents. That is an often thankless job. As a man with a career that I get to participate in Monday through Friday, I get to go to work and be away from the issues at home. A stay at home parent works 24/7, 365 at the place they sleep. For them I have the utmost respect.

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                        #71
                        Re: African-Americans Are Boycotting The Oscars

                        Originally posted by Taulmaril View Post

                        And by the way, I not only respect but I revere, the stay at home parents. That is an often thankless job. As a man with a career that I get to participate in Monday through Friday, I get to go to work and be away from the issues at home. A stay at home parent works 24/7, 365 at the place they sleep. For them I have the utmost respect.
                        When I was little, I saw my father go to work every day, come home, eat, relax. I saw my mother cooking, cleaning, etc., doing the same repetitive things over and over, for more hours a day than my father put in. I decided by kindergarten age that I wanted his life, not hers.
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                          #72
                          Re: African-Americans Are Boycotting The Oscars

                          Is OK to go to work.

                          Is OK to stay home & raise the kids.

                          Is not OK to tell others which choice they ought to be making.

                          Is that simple.
                          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                            #73
                            Re: African-Americans Are Boycotting The Oscars

                            When you tell a woman,no abortion and then say,also NO birth control..and pay her less,so she must have a husband to survive money wise. And no condoms no pill,only say stay celibate(yeh sure) and perhaps wear a pup tent for cloths like other place,to stop temptation.

                            I love western society..just not the 19th century hold outs.
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                              #74
                              Re: African-Americans Are Boycotting The Oscars

                              This thread has gone off the rails! Anywho, talking about workplace sexism. I've shared this before here I'm sure.

                              My former boss (good guy, took a chance on me and promoted me when I was still rough around the edges) gave me my review. It was all good. No issues. But he said I needed to work on how I spoke to people. I was too blunt. And though he liked it, it wasn't always going to rub people the right way. Mind you he's a former Marine, conservative who rides on and on about illegal immigration and guns AND is a Mexican through and through.

                              So he's like yeah, change how you talk to people. I replied that 44 years of me carrying myself this way has always worked for me and I would not be changing how I talked. We didn't argue. I wasn't upset. I just replied with that. That this was my opinion and I was sticking to it. I just brushed off what he said. And that was that.


                              Now my new boss specifically looks for people to talk to people the way I do.

                              Go figure.

                              And by how I talk? It's like here. I talk short. I don't give long speeches about things. And I don't ever explain or apologize for a 'no' response from me. Someone asks me something and I say no. And that's that. I realize how it bugs people. But males say no without having to explain. And my father (a Marine from WWII) I guess raised me to be that way. And that's fine by me.
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                                #75
                                Re: African-Americans Are Boycotting The Oscars

                                Originally posted by Taulmaril View Post
                                "How can a woman want another woman to reach her full potential but won't let her have control over her uterus? It's a pretty clear question. I don't want to get into right and wrong here. It will just kill this thread. I just want to know how a conservative woman can justify telling another woman what she can or cannot do with her body. It bothers the hell out of me."

                                I totally understand what you are getting at. I too don't want this to devolve. But, at the risk of creating all sorts of hullabaloo let me ask you this; why doesn't the unborn child get a say and who is going to protect them?
                                It's not a child. It's a cluster of cells growing within a woman's body. And it's funny how often I see conservatives screaming about the rights of unborn babies, but if a mother who is in no financial/mental/physical condition to actually take care of the child has it, then it's her fault. She's a whore who should have kept her legs shut. She's just abusing the system. It's always the mother's fault--I have rarely seen anyone blame the father from an accidental or very poorly planned pregnancy.

                                If someone chooses to carry it until it develops to the point that it can think, hear, feel, then it's a fetus. It's a child after its born. And quite frankly, unless you are the one carrying the cells, I don't think it's your place or right to tell someone what they can do with it (this is a general "you").
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