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The Battle For The Word Pagan

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    #46
    Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

    Originally posted by pragon View Post
    I find it ridiculous how people are still arguing about this. Paganism in ancient times simply meant country dweller. Paganism also means anyone who practices a spiritual/religious faith that doesn't consist of the Abrahamic faiths: Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It's as simple as that.
    The meaning of words change with time. 'Faggot' used to be a derogatory word for old people, but that's long been lost.

    Is Zoroastrianism really an Abrahamic religion?



    I'm here actually because i wanted to ask about the use of the word Pagan with regard to Indian traditions. If i were to refer to them i would say Hinduism or Buddhism or Jainism or... Collectively i might refer to them as Vedic (not sure Sikhism fits that though ). I would not have thought to refer to them as Pagan. I'm not sure how useful the term is if it means everything not Abrahamic.

    In general (and i've only read one page back so please forgive me if i've missed something), it seems many 'pagans' are reluctant to define the label. That's people's choice, but it won't stop other people defining what a Paganism is - looking in from the outside so to speak. As a community you may not want other people defining it -or maybe you do?

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      #47
      Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

      Originally posted by prometheus View Post
      The meaning of words change with time. 'Faggot' used to be a derogatory word for old people, but that's long been lost.

      Is Zoroastrianism really an Abrahamic religion?



      I'm here actually because i wanted to ask about the use of the word Pagan with regard to Indian traditions. If i were to refer to them i would say Hinduism or Buddhism or Jainism or... Collectively i might refer to them as Vedic (not sure Sikhism fits that though ). I would not have thought to refer to them as Pagan. I'm not sure how useful the term is if it means everything not Abrahamic.

      In general (and i've only read one page back so please forgive me if i've missed something), it seems many 'pagans' are reluctant to define the label. That's people's choice, but it won't stop other people defining what a Paganism is - looking in from the outside so to speak. As a community you may not want other people defining it -or maybe you do?
      I believe Zoroastrianism is considered a historical precursor to Abrahamic faiths (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that?) As far as Far East traditions, it seems to be a gray area. A lot of folks view pagan as "anything not Abrahamic", in which case that may be an accurate application.

      But I have been seeing a bit of a split from including them in the past few years, where pagan is more defined as "a reintroduction or reinterpretation of faith systems not practiced in your time/place" in which case a person practicing Far East beliefs in the West would probably be considered pagan, but a traditional practitioner from that country, or someone who actually went and studied there, may not be, because they wouldn't be reinterpretting it, they would be learning it directly from practitioners. Ancient belief systems that are being/have been recreated for the modern times fall into this category. Native American beliefs may/may not. And, to be clear, this is an impression I've got from attending gatherings like PSG and talking to folks, but not something that has really been put into words.
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        #48
        Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

        Zoroastrianism has likely influenced and been influenced by Abrahamic faiths but I wouldn't call it Abrahamic and I don't consider Ahura Mazda to be the LoH unless I'm particularly feeling like dabbling in soft polytheism. It is a quasi-monotheistic religion (Ahriman isn't worshipped and I can't be assed to do a compare/contrast between Ahriman and Satan. I'm also entirely too lazy to get into Zurvan who may or may not be a flat out heresy) but after that, differences start piling up really fast.
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          #49
          Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

          Originally posted by prometheus View Post
          I'm here actually because i wanted to ask about the use of the word Pagan with regard to Indian traditions. If i were to refer to them i would say Hinduism or Buddhism or Jainism or... Collectively i might refer to them as Vedic (not sure Sikhism fits that though ). I would not have thought to refer to them as Pagan.
          If you use "pagan" in the academic sense of a primary religion, then only Hinduism counts. Jains and Buddhists are certainly not Vedic either: their founders rejected the Vedas. And Sikhism was created as a monotheistic religion to compete with Islam and preserve the insights of Hinduism. Certainly some Hindus are happy to be called "pagan", if not "Pagan" — not that many in India would know the difference!
          Many people in the world consider Hindus to be pagan. As most are aware, 'pagan' has multiple meanings. Wikipedia states: "Paganism is a broad group of indigenous and historical polytheistic religious traditions—primarily those of cultures known to the classical world. In a wider sense...


          Incidentally, this discussion reminds me of the old joke that an intellectual is anyone prepared to argue for at least 15 minutes over the meaning of the word "intellectual". Perhaps a pagan is anyone prepared to treat the word "pagan" in the same way.

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            #50
            Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

            Once we get these things figured out, we can try to decide if the Yazidis are pagan or not...

            My take on the word "pagan" is this: "Pagan" is a nebulous term used to allow people who would generally be a tiny minority to join (in some sense) with other tiny minorities for a variety of purposes (such as discussion).

            Personally, I would say that attempts to put a more definite definition to the term are counter productive, since the reason for using the term in the first place would be lost.
            Last edited by B. de Corbin; 13 Sep 2018, 11:04.
            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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              #51
              Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

              Originally posted by DavidMcCann View Post
              Many people in the world consider Hindus to be pagan. As most are aware, 'pagan' has multiple meanings. Wikipedia states: "Paganism is a broad group of indigenous and historical polytheistic religious traditions—primarily those of cultures known to the classical world. In a wider sense...


              Incidentally, this discussion reminds me of the old joke that an intellectual is anyone prepared to argue for at least 15 minutes over the meaning of the word "intellectual". Perhaps a pagan is anyone prepared to treat the word "pagan" in the same way.
              Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to add this:

              The word "pagan" has absolutely NO academic or scholarly usage. The term is so ill-defined that any real scholar or academic would never use it. An educated person would refer to a religion by it's name, sub-name, and, if necessary, it's sub-sub-name.

              You might find it in scholarly works from the prior to early part of the 20th century. If you do, consider that it is used as a pejorative. For a while, anthropologists were using a system of ranking cultures based on how "advanced" they were. For western world scholars, that meant western culture, and when speaking of religion, the model for an advanced religion was the western religion - Christianity. "Pagan" would be used to describe "primitive" religions of people (assumed to be) to primitive, foolish, ignorant, or naive to have adapted Christianity.

              If you see the word used today in a scholarly text, either through the book away, or be aware that it carries the implication of "inferior." Sometimes you will run into quasi-scholarly theological writing that uses the term, always in the sense that "these pagans are wrong/fools."

              Also, in the mid-twentieth century, "pagan" was a code term used to refer to people who practiced non-standard sexuality (which, at the time, meant 1 man + 1 woman, preferably married) - especially if they were into multiple partners. In the mid-20th century, prior to the Wicca explosion, to say "I am a pagan" generally meant "I am a swinger."
              Last edited by B. de Corbin; 14 Sep 2018, 06:34.
              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                #52
                Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                An educated person would refer to a religion by it's name, sub-name, and, if necessary, it's sub-sub-name.
                That's an astute observation. Does anyone know where i could find a family tree of religions; something akin to language trees.

                I would only temper this to add that knowledge is only one path to wisdom. Certain mystics seem to find paths to wisdom. This motivates my interest in paganism, which before coming here i thought to mean European polytheism and mysticism.

                Please don't make me define wisdom.

                Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to add this:
                You might find it in scholarly works from the prior to early part of the 20th century. If you do, consider that it is used as a pejorative. For a while, anthropologists were using a system of ranking cultures based on how "advanced" they were. For western world scholars, that meant western culture, and when speaking of religion, the model for an advanced religion was the western religion - Christianity. "Pagan" would be used to describe "primitive" religions of people (assumed to be) to primitive, foolish, ignorant, or naive to have adapted Christianity.
                I'm not aware of the history of anthropology, or the academic study of religions in general. From your description though it seems to have tones of bigotry, much like the racial 'sciences' of phrenology and the like. Did these trends occur at the same time? Are they linked at all?

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                  #53
                  Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                  Originally posted by prometheus View Post
                  I'm not aware of the history of anthropology, or the academic study of religions in general. From your description though it seems to have tones of bigotry, much like the racial 'sciences' of phrenology and the like. Did these trends occur at the same time? Are they linked at all?
                  It's a type of bigotry called "ethnocentrism," a huge bug-a-boo in anthropology. Much of it (in the early days of anthropology) was derived from colonialism, where a country's invaders assumed the natives were inferior to themselves. This was an unexamined prejudice.

                  Now, anthropologists try to make observations and descriptions of cultures, without also making judgement.

                  Here's an article you may find interesting:

                  What is Ethnocentrism and Why Should I Care About It?
                  Last edited by B. de Corbin; 14 Sep 2018, 07:53.
                  Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                    #54
                    Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                    Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                    The word "pagan" has absolutely NO academic or scholarly usage. The term is so ill-defined that any real scholar or academic would never use it. … You might find it in scholarly works from the prior to early part of the 20th century. If you do, consider that it is used as a pejorative.

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                      #55
                      Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                      What I'm failing to understand is why do we need a "battle" for a word when all you can do is use it according to our own understanding and agreeing that not everyone will have the same understanding of the word?

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                        #56
                        Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                        Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
                        What I'm failing to understand is why do we need a "battle" for a word when all you can do is use it according to our own understanding and agreeing that not everyone will have the same understanding of the word?
                        LOL - that's the thing. We don't. It's a word. Words mean what they mean when they are used. And that meaning changes with time, place, and conditions. There's no can of worms, so nobody needs fight for a can opener.

                        - - - Updated - - -

                        Yeah - I was a little too solid on that. It can be used in some types of scholarship to refer to the group of people who refer to themselves as "pagan." For example, Adler's book, Drawing Down the Moon, can refer to pagans, but she also makes it clear that it is a general term. when she speaks about particular beliefs, she identifies what group & sub-group she is talking about.
                        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                          #57
                          Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                          Originally posted by prometheus View Post
                          That's an astute observation. Does anyone know where i could find a family tree of religions; something akin to language trees.





                          Its a work in progress from the author, this is the 2nd version so far, not sure if there is a 3rd.




                          I'm not aware of the history of anthropology, or the academic study of religions in general. From your description though it seems to have tones of bigotry, much like the racial 'sciences' of phrenology and the like. Did these trends occur at the same time? Are they linked at all?
                          Yes. Biology as a discipline and anthropology as a discipline are the same, in that they originate from the natural history/natural theology of the 19th century Europe and were fields much influenced by the biases of the men that shaped their institutions which have been largely responsible for creating the (written and unwritten, explicit and implicit) rules by which they "work."

                          I feel like this trend seems to have lasted longer in the field of anthropology than it did in biology because of the cultural aspect of anthropological study, but I've never done the research deep dive to back that up...I've just read a lot of 19th-century natural history, since that is what I reenact from that time period.
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                            #58
                            Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                            I tend to just say Pagan when people ask,it is general enough,where I do not have to go into detail about my beliefs. It is hard explaining to someone with no background in the alternative belief systems. If they inquire further,then I will explain more to them,if their interest is sincere.
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                              #59
                              Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                              Originally posted by thalassa View Post


                              Its a work in progress from the author, this is the 2nd version so far, not sure if there is a 3rd.





                              Yes. Biology as a discipline and anthropology as a discipline are the same, in that they originate from the natural history/natural theology of the 19th century Europe and were fields much influenced by the biases of the men that shaped their institutions which have been largely responsible for creating the (written and unwritten, explicit and implicit) rules by which they "work."

                              I feel like this trend seems to have lasted longer in the field of anthropology than it did in biology because of the cultural aspect of anthropological study, but I've never done the research deep dive to back that up...I've just read a lot of 19th-century natural history, since that is what I reenact from that time period.
                              Wow... That's a really interesting diagram!

                              Yeah... Actually, the history of anthropology is pretty crazy, and has some colorful history - like Burton's explorations of ethnicity, which involved, among other things, measuring butt sizes in Africa...

                              ... and continued well into the 20th century, with the Nazi's attempts to "prove" the power of the imaginary "Aryan race," and the inferiority of "non-Aryan" peoples.

                              We all know how that turned out.
                              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                                #60
                                Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                                That's such a cool diagram! Thanks for sharing, Thalassa.

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