The Art of Fighting with Tools

[B. de Corbin]

I'm into WMA - Western Marital Arts, which includes everything from boxing and wrestling (wringen) to the use of swords, axes, polearms, quarter staffs, etc.

In WMA, the idea is to learn to fight (as much as possible) the way it was actually done in Europe in the days before firearms ruled the battlefield. This is very different from the way fighting is done by Renaisance fair fighters, sport fencing, or in stage combat, and people are relearning it by studying actual fighting manuals written between 1200 and 1800 (or thereabouts), and trying out and practicing the techniques described.

If anybody else is interested in the warrior's fine art, we can talk about it here -

My own persoanl favorite weapons are the bastard sword (hand and a half sword), quarter staff (the most effective weapon ever devised, excepting projectile weapons - IMHO), and the Crow's Beak (a pole arm with a spiked hammer head and blade on the end, which eventually devolved into the crow bar). I also mess around with a true two hand sword, but I haven't developed real skill with it yet.

[volcaniclastic]

Re: The Art of Fighting with Tools

I've always preferred the mace in re-enactment, but I'd be interested in swordfighting with steel. Do you use steel or practice swords?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The Art of Fighting with Tools

I've never used a mace - it seems like it would be an awkward weapon to use, unless you also had a sheild (I'd prefer a long handled axe to a two handed mace, I think). I haven't worked much with one handed weapons, though, so I'm not really sure. That's on my agenda for the future - I need a sheild. Maybe I'll make one this summer.

I don't have a training partner, so I don't use practice swords. I work with actual steel weapons - a good quality reproduction (which is different from the sword shaped objects that are often sold in tourist stores) is the only way to really understand how the tool works in use. There's a huge difference in weight, handling and balance between an accurate reproduction and a display piece, and even between a steel weapon and a waster.

On the other hand, unless you have full body protection you can't safely engage in realistic mock combat with a steel weapon, even if it's blunted and rebated - a full-force blow with a blunted sword is even more dangerous than striking somebody with a baseball bat because all the force of the blow from a sword is concenrated in that thin edge.

There's a really big problem in WMA - balancing historical reality with modern safety. Western fighting arts have never really been "sporterized" the way Asian Martial Arts have been (well, except for fencing, which is so different from actual combat that it doesn't even qualify as a martial art).

They are still techniques whose purpose is to kill or seriously mame. The wrestling throws are designed to break necks, backs, dislocate arms and destroy shoulders and knees - they can't even be practiced safely at full speed (forget all that stuff about smacking the mat as you fall that you learned in Judo - doesn't work here - you throw the guy so he lands on his head and breaks his neck. This is a MARTIAL art, an art of war).

Typical moves when using a sword involve ramming the hilt into your oponent's mouth, or jamming the guard into his/her eye, or groin, or any soft spot you can get to. This is about as barbaric as anything you can imagine... which is the beauty of the thing... One wrestling move involves a person ramming his body into another, and, as the guy overbalances and falls, his opponent grabs the guys testicles and holds on...

War is hell.

[Monk]

Re: The Art of Fighting with Tools

Hopefully this summer I can spend some time studying the book you recommended on the sword. I also have to find a place to practice so I won't hack down an over head power line. I can not use the front yard as the neighbors think I weird enough already.

[Oshii]

Re: The Art of Fighting with Tools

I've always been partial to the Halberd but I've never fought with weapons. Not sure if this even applies to the topic. :/

[Taiga Pagan]

Re: The Art of Fighting with Tools

I like swords... maces are nice too. I know how to use them. But not the axes, staves and the other stuff.

[Dez]

Re: The Art of Fighting with Tools

Interesting, Corbin!

I'm going to need to look into this more. I'd heard people mention it briefly, but didn't know what it was called. You probably remember that what little experience I have is with the foam-covered, pvc-core stuff (Belegarth), but I've often noticed that there's very little in the way of pragmatics at work for most groups. A glaive or similar usually works best for me, I'd be ecstatic to have the chance someday to see whether the same held true with the heft and balance of real weapons.

More then anything, though, this has me curious about training. If you're using real weapons, how do you keep it safe, particularly if sparring is done? I know most SCA-type groups handle it by doing rattan weapons and real armor, but watching them fight always seems to have a lot of poking and swinging, but not a lot of actual fighting. On the other hand, groups like mine mean you can't have real weapons, but you can actually swing with the intent to hit.

[Thjoth]

Re: The Art of Fighting with Tools

You do it like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zGjex6qDtM

Granted, the Russians don't have as many safety rules as we do, but usually the worst that happens are concussions, and you can get those in SCA too. Kind of like here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B95By9w2MWA

Then of course there's individual duels, which are usually fun to watch and usually pretty realistic. The only rule is usually "don't strike for the head", as even with a helmet on, hitting the head with a real weapon can cause damage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_4_1dEgyjs

Look at this guy's channel for more: http://www.youtube.com/user/skallagrimm

I do some quarterstaff and spear and shield stuff myself. I've basically just practiced against fenceposts as no one is willing to practice with me. I started to get into SCA but then I couldn't go to more than a few of their meets due to school and work, but now that I'm free I need to look them up again...

[Dez]

Re: The Art of Fighting with Tools

Now that was fun...second video had me crying I laughed so hard. Way to get yourself clotheslined, there, buddy....

Yeah...L and I would both enjoy that a lot.

[Roknrol]

Re: The Art of Fighting with Tools

I've always kind of envied guys like you. My preferred method of combat is the "run and hide", followed by "cower in fear" and, if absolutely necessary, my fallback is "bleed and fall unconscious" Seriously? If I need to defend myself I'd prefer a cop or a gun.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The Art of Fighting with Tools

Interesting, Corbin!

More then anything, though, this has me curious about training. If you're using real weapons, how do you keep it safe, particularly if sparring is done? I know most SCA-type groups handle it by doing rattan weapons and real armor, but watching them fight always seems to have a lot of poking and swinging, but not a lot of actual fighting. On the other hand, groups like mine mean you can't have real weapons, but you can actually swing with the intent to hit.

How to do it safely is a major problem. In WMA, the idea is to keep it all as "real" as is safely possible. There are different ways of doing that - the SCA does it one way, WMA does it another. SCA is set up more as a sport with strict rules, valid targets, etc.. while WMA tries to keep to the martial aspect as much as possible.

So for WMA, the problem is less safety = more real but more dangerous, more safety = less real but less dangerous. There's really no good solution. If you fight with real weapons, even if blunted, it's still way dangerous. If you wear armor, the fighting techniques you'd actually use are WAY different from the way you'd fight without armor (with armor, the sword is used more like a spear, and the hilt is a major weapon, used much like a mace, and armored fighting usually results in a wrestling match).

So training in WMA is a major area of discussion - how to do it realistically but safely. There is no answer - each group makes their own compromises and takes their own "acceptable risks." Broken bones are fairly common....

By the way - a real fight between people who know what they're doing isn't very exciting to watch unless you know what they're doing.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The Art of Fighting with Tools

I've always kind of envied guys like you. My preferred method of combat is the "run and hide", followed by "cower in fear" and, if absolutely necessary, my fallback is "bleed and fall unconscious" Seriously? If I need to defend myself I'd prefer a cop or a gun.

LOL - Yeah, that's actually my prefered method too, in real life. I'm not likely to start carrying a sword for self defence - it's illegal in all states. On the other hand, if I ever get backed into a corner and can't run, or find myself in a situation where running away isn't a good option (like if I run into some punks are beating on an old lady), I like to know that breaking a neck is a viable option...

One of the things I've learned from doing this is this: If you have to fight, there's no such thing as a "fair fight." There's a person who survives, and one who doesn't - you want to be in the first category. While a sword is a lousey personal defence tool in the present, that rule about surviving always holds true. It's nice to know a few dozen ways of riping somebody apart, even if you never use them. I, personally, hope that I never do. But if I do need them, it's nice to have them in my bag of tricks.

It isn't enough to want to do the right thing - you have to be able to do it.

[Thjoth]

Re: The Art of Fighting with Tools

LOL - Yeah, that's actually my prefered method too, in real life. I'm not likely to start carrying a sword for self defence - it's illegal in all states. On the other hand, if I ever get backed into a corner and can't run, or find myself in a situation where running away isn't a good option (like if I run into some punks are beating on an old lady), I like to know that breaking a neck is a viable option...

One of the things I've learned from doing this is this: If you have to fight, there's no such thing as a "fair fight." There's a person who survives, and one who doesn't - you want to be in the first category. While a sword is a lousey personal defence tool in the present, that rule about surviving always holds true. It's nice to know a few dozen ways of riping somebody apart, even if you never use them. I, personally, hope that I never do. But if I do need them, it's nice to have them in my bag of tricks.

It isn't enough to want to do the right thing - you have to be able to do it.

I don't know if all states would make it illegal to carry a sword. A lot of states are "open carry" states, meaning that as long as the weapon you are carrying is visible, you can carry it anywhere except government property and schools. This applies for guns and knives, so I would imagine it would apply for swords as well.

What I like about WMA is the universality of the techniques. For example, with my quarterstaff, almost all of the techniques are interchangeable with pollaxes, spears, and other polearms. The same can be done with the sword and knife techniques and similarly sized sticks, so it enables you to beat the living hell out of people, (probably) without killing them! That's how WMA is applicable to the modern day. Plus, the wrestling and unarmed techniques are pretty good as well.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The Art of Fighting with Tools

What I like about WMA is the universality of the techniques. For example, with my quarterstaff, almost all of the techniques are interchangeable with pollaxes, spears, and other polearms. The same can be done with the sword and knife techniques and similarly sized sticks, so it enables you to beat the living hell out of people, (probably) without killing them! That's how WMA is applicable to the modern day. Plus, the wrestling and unarmed techniques are pretty good as well.

Yeah - exactly. Learn to use a quarterstaff, and you can quickly learn the ins & outs of other pole weapons - the main difference being the balance when you put metal on one end, plus whatever advantages you get from having a blade or hammer out there. And using pole arms teaches you a lot about handling the sword, since all the aspects of the actual fight (distance, timing, hard or soft commitment, feints, strikes and counter strikes) are the same.

And once you've learned to handle a variety of weapons, you can pick up most any object - a chair, a hammer, a push broom - and use it as a reasonably effective weapon.

But I still can't picture myself seriously wearing a sword around town...

[thalassa]

Re: The Art of Fighting with Tools

Yeah - exactly. Learn to use a quarterstaff, and you can quickly learn the ins & outs of other pole weapons - the main difference being the balance when you put metal on one end, plus whatever advantages you get from having a blade or hammer out there. And using pole arms teaches you a lot about handling the sword, since all the aspects of the actual fight (distance, timing, hard or soft commitment, feints, strikes and counter strikes) are the same.

And once you've learned to handle a variety of weapons, you can pick up most any object - a chair, a hammer, a push broom - and use it as a reasonably effective weapon.

But I still can't picture myself seriously wearing a sword around town...

...that is why you should consider being the eccentric fellow with a hiking stick, lol