Any other languages?

[Juniper]

Re: Any other languages?

Does anyone know if I could record myself speaking and paste it on Pagan Forum without making a youtube vid that all could see? It's just when Dral mentioned accent it made me think of something silly. In Germany, I was told I spoke German with a Japanese accent. My Japanese accent sounds very English (I think), so I don't know how this is possible, but I'd love to post a few sentences in the German thread. I just don't know how to go about it.

You could always record yourself and post it to soundcloud, then share that link with the site.

[JamesByrne]

Re: Any other languages?

So what makes you so sure he's lying? He says he was raised speaking Irish at home. From what I understand, there is a society of people who speak a very fractured form of German in the states, because over generations, it has changed further and further from the original language (is it the Amish?). So it's not hard to imagine, especially from what you have just written about dialects, that you are just both speaking a different version of the language.

Jembru irst of all id love it to be an issue of dialect, if there was an american dialect dral would be swarmed with people from universities wanting to study it and my name would be down as the person who discovered the first american dialect of irish. What makes me sure he was lying? The mistakes made indicated he didnt have even the basics that would be common to all speakers. Such as knowing the name of the language, the name of the Island and how to say you are irish. His irish made no sense in Irish but translated to perfect american english in google translate, if youre unsure yourself you can perform the experiment.

Google translate is great its a step towards star treks universal translator its just that american english just doesnt translate literally into irish. If we did what americans do and called the irish langage gaelic and only used the term irish to refer to our nationality or ethnicity then the major mistake dral didnt spot wouldnt have happend. The term is similar in english - Irish langauge Irish people but in Irish the mistake is impossible to make the terms arent even remotely similar. If an irish speaker even glanced at it theyd spot the huge bogey of a mistake. He didnt spot the difference between I am Irish coming out as I am Gaeilge and I am Daoine Eireannach... can you imagine that. If he spoke irish why even use translate... its a hugely long way around and it always makes mistakes. No one who speaks irish would have to rely on google translate end of.

If he was looking for benefit of the doubt as a learner Id give it to him, but to say hes a native speaker cos he grew up with it and he made the mistake... what is he supposed to be ralf wiggum out of the simpsons "me fail english thats unpossible". Please. A mia culpa when youre caught red handed would just be good charactor... if Dral can have a simple conversation with me on the forum in Irish I will apologise genuinely and Ill reexamine my views on celtic paganism. Cos if he speaks irish natively and im mistaking him for the common celtic pagan who doesnt have any interest in the culture beyond how it legitimises his made up version of spiritual belief then Ive become jaded and maybe that view is wrong... if not hes been goin around tryin to pull the wool over peopels eyes and hiding using the recon idiom and it shouldnt be me having to pull him up. That none of the crs are doing it makes me wonder even more how much cr cares about the culture it seems to predate on.

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To be fair, English speakers often use the word "dialect" as a synonym for "accent." It may not be correct, but reading it as such would not be uncommon amongst anglophones. I hear all the time people saying of Southerners in the U.S. that they speak a "Southern dialect of English" even though it's really just a question of accent.

I dunno Witcher I think english is pretty diverse, its just the history of the people means english speakers dont have an interest in dialects like other people do. The urbane english speaker is convinced his way of speaking is right and all others are just deformities of the language, hes the product of a history of modernism and imperialism. English was lead from Britain etc... were as in irish we are basically traditional and tribal so the diversity is naturally highlighted.

An example of a difference in dialect I know if is the cart before the horse thing. I know a lad from Louisianna and Ive noticed that he doesnt do it, so maybe its a northern dialect thing. Some american english speakers put the cart before the horse, they put the end of a sentence at the start. It means I cant follow the sentence Ive to get to the end and consider it as a whole. Its such hard work that it must come from a common lexicon, people with the same lexicon know the sentence as soon as it starts because theyve heard it before and are only waiting for the details that can change.

It wouldnt be a big leap for areas settled by a certain people to have their english influenced by the settlers language the way my green english is influenced by Irish. It wouldnt shock me if some indian languages influenced the local english or if in areas that have a big influx of people with english as a second language their first language impacted the local english. When we are talking about non germanic speakers it can be a big thing.

I did a google search there and theres a map of dialects going 25 of em. Its believable, we have approx 6 dialects and our island is tiny.

[Kærlighed]

Re: Any other languages?

I am fluent in English, Danish and Russian fluently although in all if them my spelling and handwriting is...questionable. I do sometimes struggle to find the right word for example I know the word in two languages but not in the language I am using. Also, a thing that is one word in language A may be a whole phrase in language B and not really exist or have any synonyms in language C so getting what I want to say correct using that same language for the entire time can be a bit tricky.

[Jembru]

Re: Any other languages?

Jembru irst of all id love it to be an issue of dialect, if there was an american dialect dral would be swarmed with people from universities wanting to study it and my name would be down as the person who discovered the first american dialect of irish. What makes me sure he was lying? The mistakes made indicated he didnt have even the basics that would be common to all speakers. Such as knowing the name of the language, the name of the Island and how to say you are irish. His irish made no sense in Irish but translated to perfect american english in google translate, if youre unsure yourself you can perform the experiment.

Google translate is great its a step towards star treks universal translator its just that american english just doesnt translate literally into irish. If we did what americans do and called the irish langage gaelic and only used the term irish to refer to our nationality or ethnicity then the major mistake dral didnt spot wouldnt have happend. The term is similar in english - Irish langauge Irish people but in Irish the mistake is impossible to make the terms arent even remotely similar. If an irish speaker even glanced at it theyd spot the huge bogey of a mistake. He didnt spot the difference between I am Irish coming out as I am Gaeilge and I am Daoine Eireannach... can you imagine that. If he spoke irish why even use translate... its a hugely long way around and it always makes mistakes. No one who speaks irish would have to rely on google translate end of.

If he was looking for benefit of the doubt as a learner Id give it to him, but to say hes a native speaker cos he grew up with it and he made the mistake... what is he supposed to be ralf wiggum out of the simpsons "me fail english thats unpossible". Please. A mia culpa when youre caught red handed would just be good charactor... if Dral can have a simple conversation with me on the forum in Irish I will apologise genuinely and Ill reexamine my views on celtic paganism. Cos if he speaks irish natively and im mistaking him for the common celtic pagan who doesnt have any interest in the culture beyond how it legitimises his made up version of spiritual belief then Ive become jaded and maybe that view is wrong... if not hes been goin around tryin to pull the wool over peopels eyes and hiding using the recon idiom and it shouldnt be me having to pull him up. That none of the crs are doing it makes me wonder even more how much cr cares about the culture it seems to predate on.

Damn! If I weren't spo painfully familiar with this situation, I'd continue arguing his case, but I've seen it myself not only online but even face to face! Yes, people will tell me they're fluent in Japanese and then when I try to speak to them and they realise I've read more than one beginners' phrase book, they have the nerve to get angry at ME! I"ve been told my accent is crap, I word things strangely (I word things like, you know, ALL the books tell you, and how almost the entire population of Japan does!) and my favourite 'yeah, you speak okay, but you don't know enough kanji to call yourself fluent' (i wasn't calling myself fluent: he was!). I've had someone actually lose his temper with me and say I am using 'fake modesty' about my ability just so I can show off. If I WERE fluent, maybe I'd do that: could be fun, but no, I play down my ability because I am not fluent, have much to learn and know if I am not entirely honest about how crappy I am, the day will come when I am humiliated by my lies!

Sadly, when it comes to these fake experts online, once they're caught out, they'll often just vanish and stop posting. This sucks because they're usually at least as capable in Japanese as I am, if not more so, so we'd have made great study partners if they'd just admit they're still learning. I really hope Dral doesn't do this. I enjoy his posts and he seems like a friendly guy. Hopefully he'll just put it down to experience and vow to keep things bull-free from now on!!

[JamesByrne]

Re: Any other languages?

To be fair, English speakers often use the word "dialect" as a synonym for "accent." It may not be correct, but reading it as such would not be uncommon amongst anglophones.

Id agree in an english speaker itd be normal, but only if they didnt speak another language. While in english accent and dialect might be considered synonyms in other languages like Irish those two are very distinct. One 'Seamhu' is an integral and codified part of the language and the other 'Canuint' is an integral and heavily enforced part of the culture that impacts on how the langauage is taught. Only someone that had never seen either seamhu accent or canuint dialect before would make the mistake.

Seamhu: Accent strokes over letters dont exist in english so an accent means very little to english speakers but other languages its a much more important and clearly defined concept. In Irish and say manderin a change in accent changes the meaning of a word. The wrong accent in Irish will turn man into truth and the wrong accent in manderin will turn apple into sex. When all youre offering is fruit that can be awkward haha. Accent is an integral part of speaking lots of languages and in Irish without a clear understanding of seamhu you cant speak irish.

Canuint: Dialect is something socially enforced because we can be a very regional people and we are rivals in everything, so when the language is taught and dialects have different versions of english words they are emphasised so no one dialect takes precidence over the others. Some of them can be very funny because they are old school. Motor cycle for example can be gluastain (car) rother (Bicycle) instead of a new name because the car came first and then the bicycle :P Itd be difficult to learn irish and to ignore dialects. They can be fairly hilarious. Im sure somewhere people are calling delivery vans car horse carts . Its also hard to ignore that they exist because its the culture that makes them so prominant. That regional element is not something that makes sense to an irish american and its not something an IA speaker forgets. Were so regional once we know we care about the trads Irish means nothing in terms of ethnicity. We refer to our region, its history and its geography to affirm our ethnicity most IA dont know where they come from or they mention a port the ship left from when it was headin to america... it undermines a sense of identity. TBH I dont think anyone who knows what canuint is would forget it.

Its just not possible imo to mistake seamhu for canuint when you know the language and the culture because they are so prominant in them. TBH thats why I asked him the question, ive seen lots of Celtic pagans who lie to legitimise their neopaganism. Its not funny considering the history of the language and allt he suffering we wnet through and are still going through today for the language to be here. I dont think anyone is unaware of it either. So its a bit of a slap in the face to fake it.

[Oshii]

Re: Any other languages?

I was enjoying this thread until the nit-picking started. I want to see more examples of what other people speak and less arguing!!!! Jembru, are you going to dazzle us with a soundbyte? I'd be delighted to hear it. I don't speak any other languages, so I guess I'm trying to experience it vicariously through this thread.

[Jembru]

Re: Any other languages?

I was enjoying this thread until the nit-picking started. I want to see more examples of what other people speak and less arguing!!!! Jembru, are you going to dazzle us with a soundbyte? I'd be delighted to hear it. I don't speak any other languages, so I guess I'm trying to experience it vicariously through this thread.

No dazzling, but I definitely want to check out that site once I have internet access (any time after 24th, which is payday!). I was actually planning on entertaining the German speakers with my weird accent, but if you want me to say something in Japanese, I guess I could. Maybe it would be nice in some of the practice threads for various languages, if we wrote and spoke the sentences? Could be fun so long as no one picks on my freaky accent!

It wasn't meant as nit-picking. I did get annoyed at the comments in another thread, but I can understand the frustration the poster of that comment must have felt at the time. I'm trying to sympathise with both sides. I'm an on the fence gal like that. Language boasting does bother me though, because I have experienced so much trolling/cyber bullying or whatever, in trying to find a friendly community to learn with. Brings back a lot of anger and disappointment.

[Kærlighed]

Re: Any other languages?

Jembru - I understand speaking languages with a weird accent, I often to the same thing meself! With English I do have a slight Danish accent sometimes but it only really shows itself when I am sleepy or angry as in that situation I will speak without thinking about it and it just sort of slips out. I also have a slight lisp which seems to make the Danish a little stronger apparently but this was only pointed out a few years ago. I have only a regional accent when speaking Russian but when speaking Danish I apparently slide between a slight English and a slight Russian accent. As for the "distorted German (Amish?)" thing, I believe some Amish groups speak what is known as Pennsylvanian Dutch so maybe.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Any other languages?

I heard that Pennsylvania Dutch actually are from German backgrounds, so that makes sense. The "Dutch" part comes from a misunderstanding of Deutsch, apparently. I've never heard them speak though, so i couldn't say for sure!

[Jembru]

[AuroraWinters]

Re: Any other languages?

Oh, I have those books! They're quite unique in the fact that they focus entirely on how the language is spoken. A dialogue that really sticks out, is the young lady and a man who meet in Sapporo (I think) airport and strike up a conversation. It's amazing how often I have read or heard people who studied the language formally, claim 'you ALWAYS have to use the masu/desu/neutral-polite style when speaking to strangers', and I wonder why, after three years of uni, their teacher never came clean and explained that depending on the situation, you can usually slip between styles as it shows respect, while creating closeness. Japanese for Dummies really illustrates how this works in real, everyday Japanese interactions.

I knew only a few phrases of Japanese when I lived there and I know people who lived there for 6 or more years and never picked up the language, so trust me, you'll be fine! If you really want to get away from the artificial university style Japanese, and pick up something more functional (I've met people with JLPT 3, who can't even hold down a simple conversation, so you really didn't miss much by skipping third year: you'd have learnt to read literature, but wouldn't have been able to post a parcel back to Indiana by surface mail), then I highly recommend the series I use: Japanese for Busy People. You probably won't need book 1 as it only covers the material you'll have covered in the first 6 months of uni. Book 2 will help refresh what you learnt at college and brush up your kana if you need to. Book 3 is bloody amazing and well, well worth the money. It IS mainly in the polite forms, but introduces more and more casual expressions and contractions, so when you hear things like 'shicha dame', in everyday speech instead of 'shite wa ikemasen', that you'll have learnt at uni, you'll know what they mean. Few books teach this stuff and it is so very, very important to know if you need the language for spoken communication.

My Japanese is still pretty poor to be honest, and I'm slipping behind, so if you want a study partner, let me know!

lol. you can tell I use a lot of Japanese: I keep repeating words for emphasis. Bad habit ne!

Just got the first book of the Japanese for Busy People and it's great! Thanks for recommending it! I do definitely need a study partner, but I'm afraid I'm probably far far behind where you are lol Hopefully, I will make long strides quickly though, since I'm on self-study now and hoping to get to an 'ok' level before moving in a year.

[Jembru]

Re: Any other languages?

Just got the first book of the Japanese for Busy People and it's great! Thanks for recommending it! I do definitely need a study partner, but I'm afraid I'm probably far far behind where you are lol Hopefully, I will make long strides quickly though, since I'm on self-study now and hoping to get to an 'ok' level before moving in a year.

You're probably not as far behind as you think. I would actually really benefit from going over the basics again anyway. There are parts of JBP1 I need practice with. In particular, I make mistakes with verbs of giving and receiving, which is covered in there. Also numbers are not my strong point!

Another tip with those books, is to read every dialogue out loud. The 'speaking practice' is meant to be listened to and copied. I didn't do that and really regret it. I do these days, and noticed a difference in my speaking confidence within weeks (not right away). I can only imagine how good my Japanese could be now, if I'd only done this years ago!

The best thing about JBP, is that you know it's not riddled with typos and mistakes like a lot of other resources are! You're in good hands aith AJaLT.

[Larix]

Re: Any other languages?

I heard that Pennsylvania Dutch actually are from German backgrounds ....

So it is, so it is!


And it sounds very much like my own South-West-German dialect, with a bit of English thrown between.

[Jembru]

Re: Any other languages?

So it is, so it is!


And it sounds very much like my own South-West-German dialect, with a bit of English thrown between.

Weirdly, I'm watching a documentory about an amish family and they use their 'dutch' now and then. I swear the mother asked her son, 'Isst du breakfast?' I think they use the English for 'because' too, or a word very similar and not at all anything like 'weil'. It's really interesting. I'm always fascinated about how quickly language changes and evolves. I believe fairly strongly, that regional dialects would be much more varied, if it weren't for the invention of radio and later TV.

Oh, they use English numbers too... Cool. I never did like using numbers in other languages, I get confused enough in English.

[ravenferret]

Re: Any other languages?

English and a good bit of German. I'm trying to teach myself Spanish and French. I can say enough words in Irish (Ulster dialect) to count to ten, throw around some step dancing terms (I was a dancer for 6 years), sing a few traditional songs, and greet people, but I don't ever expect fluency in it, although I wish I had more use for it, as it's a beautiful language.