Enter the Linguistic Pagan! 参上！言語学の異教徒！

[Ouranos Ouroboros]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

[...] I don't want to learn ancient Greek because (and please correct me if I'm wrong) I have heard that much of the pronunciation is theoretical, and it kind of makes me a bit uncomfortable that I might be pronouncing the words in ways the natives never did. I learned a year and a half of German, but it is barely survival level German. Modern Greek is a language I would definitely like to learn, but there are simply no teachers here [...]

I'm learning modern Greek with Rosetta Stone. Excellent software, crappy customer service. You can learn Greek from English with Rosetta Stone if you know basic English grammar (you don't even need to know the jargon, just the concepts).


When I was taking koine Greek, I decided to pronounce it as accurately as possible. Ancient forms of Greek seem to have been quasi-inflective, so it's the accents on the vowels that really presents the problems. Any given vowel could have a rising inflection, a falling inflection, or a mixed inflection - with regional variants, temporal variants, contextual variants, and others. My instructor at the time told me I should look into getting texts and - especially - recordings from a guy named Stephen Dates.

I really want to learn Dyirbal, but I doubt I'll be alive in this form enough years. I should have started when I was a kid (as if there were any Dyirbal teachers in Midwest America in the 80s and 90s - or now for that matter...).

[Jembru]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

You know, I would find that troubling if I hadn't considered it something like the norm here in the U.S. Admittedly, most of it seems to be the students fault (You HONESTLY want to major in a foreign language, all the while thinking that studying 3 hours a week in class is enough?!), but at the same time, I honestly think the schools need to be A LOT stricter. Sometimes I think about multilingual places like Belgium and wonder if many of them roll their eyes or point and laugh at the ridiculousness of it. How bad can it get in the U.S? I was in ADVANCED Chinese class my final year of college, and the main focus was reading stories that inspired Chinese proverbs, with all the stories written in INTERMEDIATE Chinese. My classmates barely understood the grammar and the vocab, and so we spent like, what was it...about a week or more trying to grammatically dissect a story that should have taken no more than 5 minutes to read!! It got so bad that my professor told me to just skip the class altogether (I think though that this also might have had to do with allowing me time to write my Chinese thesis, but still...) Unfortunately, it seems like it gets WORSE with Japanese classes, and I think you might understand by me simply writing one word: Otaku. Now mind you, I like video games and anime too, but when that is ALL one obsesses about, it really hinders their ability to learn and in turn causes the entire class to suffer. I had classmates in advanced Japanese who could barely say something along the lines of "I have to go to the bathroom". It got so bad that my Japanese professor (Goddess bless her kind and patient heart!) had to review intermediate grammar, taking time away from learning the necessary advanced grammar. And don't even get me started on the TEST scores *rolls eyes*

ビールを読みながら書いたから、これはいつもより間違いだらけでしょうけど。。。

あいにくシマトンと同様に話をよく聞いているよ！イギリスにも日本語を勉強してる大学生は等しい経験がある だそうです。実はこのフォーラムで数週前同じ話題が出たの。　うちのKijaniさんは大学と比べて、独習 で倍ぐらい習えるので、日本語講座を止めちゃったって言ったものだ。彼女の悔しさ想像できないけど、あたし なら、気を落とす気分になると思う。英語圏では外国語はそんなに悪いのはくだらないね。大分恥 だよ！

先々週末ネイティブスピーカーのようにうまく日本語が話せる男性を知り合った。彼は大学で勉強しているけど 入学前、自分ですでに日本語を学び始めたし、大学へ通いながら独習続けるだそうだ。それに、日本で一年間の 留学から戻ったばっかりです。　留学する前に、なかなか話せなかったし、大体日本語を聞き取れなかったって 言った、でも、あそこでますます上手になってきただそうなの。　あたしの日本人友達によると、彼の文法力は 日本人よりすごいらしい！それにしても、彼の成功は大学のおかげじゃないでしょうね。

確かにアニメの興味で日本語を習いたい人は大勢いるようだね！しかし、日本語が得意な｢アニメおたく」も知 っているの。先述の彼もアニメおたくなのに、そんなにうまくなることができたね。　この問題は大学のせいだ と思う。入学のころ学生に講座では試験を合格できるほど習えるけど、話せるようになりたければ、自分で努力 しべきだからと注意したらいいだと思う。アニメのため日本語に関心がある人を増えたに違いないね！あたしは そんなにアニメにはまっていないのに、日本語の流行ってさせるの影響はいいと思うよ！


I was drinking beer while I wrote this, so there's probably more mistakes than usual, but...

Unfortunately, I often hear the same story. In England too, there seems to be uni students studying Japanese who have the same experience. In fact, a few weeks ago, the same subject came up on this forum. Kijani told how because she could learn more by herself than she was learning at university, she ended up quitting the course. I can't even imagine how disappointed she must have felt, but if that were me, I think I'd have lost heart. I think the fact that language learning is so poor in English speaking countries is pathetic. It's pretty embarrassing.

The other week, I met a guy who speaks Japanese like a native. He studies Japanese at university but he'd already started studying before he enrolled and even while he's going to uni, he still continues to study by himself too. He's just come back from studying in Japan for a year. He says that before he got to Japan, he could hardly speak at all and couldn't catch most of what he heard, but apparently, he gradually became able to speak Japanese while he was there. According to my Japanese friends, his grammar is better than theirs! That said, his success has little to do with his university course.

There certainly does seem to be a lot of people who want to learn Japanese because of anime isn't there? However, I also know 'anime otaku' who are good at Japanese. Even though the aforementioned guy is an anime otaku he was able to become so good at Japanese. I think the issue is the fault of the universities. I think they should warn people when they start their course that while they can teach them enough to pass exams, if they want to actually be able to speak fluently in Japanese, they're going to have to study outside of uni too. Anime has definitely increased the number of people interested in Japanese! Even though I'm not particularly into anime, I think the effect it has had on the popularity of Japanese is great.

That took ages to translate.. remind me to keep bilingual posts as short as possible! ^^

[Simatong]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

ビールを読みながら書いたから、これはいつもより間違いだらけでしょうけど。。。

あいにくシマトンと同様に話をよく聞いているよ！イギリスにも日本語を勉強してる大学生は等しい経験がある だそうです。実はこのフォーラムで数週前同じ話題が出たの。　うちのKijaniさんは大学と比べて、独習 で倍ぐらい習えるので、日本語講座を止めちゃったって言ったものだ。彼女の悔しさ想像できないけど、あたし なら、気を落とす気分になると思う。英語圏では外国語はそんなに悪いのはくだらないね。大分恥 だよ！

先々週末ネイティブスピーカーのようにうまく日本語が話せる男性を知り合った。彼は大学で勉強しているけど 入学前、自分ですでに日本語を学び始めたし、大学へ通いながら独習続けるだそうだ。それに、日本で一年間の 留学から戻ったばっかりです。　留学する前に、なかなか話せなかったし、大体日本語を聞き取れなかったって 言った、でも、あそこでますます上手になってきただそうなの。　あたしの日本人友達によると、彼の文法力は 日本人よりすごいらしい！それにしても、彼の成功は大学のおかげじゃないでしょうね。

確かにアニメの興味で日本語を習いたい人は大勢いるようだね！しかし、日本語が得意な｢アニメおたく」も知 っているの。先述の彼もアニメおたくなのに、そんなにうまくなることができたね。　この問題は大学のせいだ と思う。入学のころ学生に講座では試験を合格できるほど習えるけど、話せるようになりたければ、自分で努力 しべきだからと注意したらいいだと思う。アニメのため日本語に関心がある人を増えたに違いないね！あたしは そんなにアニメにはまっていないのに、日本語の流行ってさせるの影響はいいと思うよ！


I was drinking beer while I wrote this, so there's probably more mistakes than usual, but...

Unfortunately, I often hear the same story. In England too, there seems to be uni students studying Japanese who have the same experience. In fact, a few weeks ago, the same subject came up on this forum. Kijani told how because she could learn more by herself than she was learning at university, she ended up quitting the course. I can't even imagine how disappointed she must have felt, but if that were me, I think I'd have lost heart. I think the fact that language learning is so poor in English speaking countries is pathetic. It's pretty embarrassing.

The other week, I met a guy who speaks Japanese like a native. He studies Japanese at university but he'd already started studying before he enrolled and even while he's going to uni, he still continues to study by himself too. He's just come back from studying in Japan for a year. He says that before he got to Japan, he could hardly speak at all and couldn't catch most of what he heard, but apparently, he gradually became able to speak Japanese while he was there. According to my Japanese friends, his grammar is better than theirs! That said, his success has little to do with his university course.

There certainly does seem to be a lot of people who want to learn Japanese because of anime isn't there? However, I also know 'anime otaku' who are good at Japanese. Even though the aforementioned guy is an anime otaku he was able to become so good at Japanese. I think the issue is the fault of the universities. I think they should warn people when they start their course that while they can teach them enough to pass exams, if they want to actually be able to speak fluently in Japanese, they're going to have to study outside of uni too. Anime has definitely increased the number of people interested in Japanese! Even though I'm not particularly into anime, I think the effect it has had on the popularity of Japanese is great.

That took ages to translate.. remind me to keep bilingual posts as short as possible! ^^

Really sorry for the late response! I have been busy focusing on completing these translation tests. I'm happy that there's someone who likes watching anime while also being proficient in Japanese! It kind of makes me jealous because even though I can speak the language and stuff, I'd like to become like your friend (Understanding what other folks are saying is sometimes tricky, and while I can follow intermediate convo, written words are easier for me than spoken). Anyway, regarding college, a major like linguistics is important to me, and while I of course think that studying outside the classroom is a "should do", this is a method that most logical students probably adhere to. In particular, students preparing for a life after graduation HAVE to study a lot, and most smart students clearly get this concept. The problem is that the lazy bones don't, and so even if the college is like "Though the teachers will teach you Japanese, studying only three days a week will not help you to improve", I reckon the lazy students won't do homework and will just play video games. So the question then is, which students have the passion to study? Anime is a good thing in my book, but there are just way too many people only watching anime, people like Kijani may end up not being able to learn from a teacher thanks to the lazies. Good thing is, people like that guy who went to Japan might be able to help out with a student's studies. We can learn a lot from someone like him!
By the way, I have been busy and so haven't been able to answer questions about your translations, but will soon
遅く返事してごめん！最近は忙しくて、翻訳試験を完成させることに集中している。アニメが好きな人が上手な 日本語で意見が表せるようになってうれしいですね！うらやましいですね。私は日本語が話せたりするけど、J embruさんの友達のように話せるようになりたいね。（ほかの人の言うことを理解するのは時々難しくて、 中級の会話は聞き取れるけど、話し言葉より書き言葉のほうが分かりやすい）とにかく、大学について、言語学 とかは私にとってとっても大切な専門だ。もちろんクラス以外のところで勉強したほうがいいと思うけど、論理 的に考えられる学生はそういう仕方を使っているはずだ。特に、卒業の生活を準備している学生はたくさん勉強 しなくちゃならなくて、ほとんどの頭がいい学生はこのコンセプトをはっきり理解している。日本語を専攻して いたら、もちろん大学に別れを告げた後の日常生活で日本語を使う準備をしなくちゃならないんだ。問題は、怠 け者がこういうコンセプトを理解しないっていうこと。それで、大学が学生に「先生は日本語を教えるけど、一 週間3日のクラスだけで勉強すれば、会話できるレベルまで上達しないとか言っても、怠け者である学生が勉強 しなくてテレビーゲームをするのだろうかと思う。問題は、どの学生が熱心に勉強するかということだ。アニメ はいいものだと思うけど、アニメだけを見ている学生が多すぎて、Kijaniみたいな人はオタクであるやつ のせいで先生から何も学べなくなってしまうかも。幸いなことに、日本に行ったことがある男がいるから、彼み たいな人は日本語を熱心に勉強したい学生の勉強を手伝えるだろうね。彼みたいな人からたくさん学べるね。と ころで、とても忙しいので、翻訳についての質問に答える時間がないけど、すぐに答えるよ！

[Claude]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

I'm obsessed with languages. I think it's such a powerful thing to be able to say the same words others said thousands of years ago. This has led me to my fascination with Classical Latin and Old English. I can read and write basic Latin just from my year of self teaching. Old English on the other hand has been very challenging since sources are rare.

I took four years of French. During that time I became pretty crafty. I can read write and speak French with a pretty good degree of fluency.

Besides the aforementioned languages I'd like to learn Italian Greek German Swedish Icelandic Irish and Turkish. Hopefully I'll be able to visit these places and learn from natural speakers.

[Simatong]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

I'm obsessed with languages. I think it's such a powerful thing to be able to say the same words others said thousands of years ago. This has led me to my fascination with Classical Latin and Old English. I can read and write basic Latin just from my year of self teaching. Old English on the other hand has been very challenging since sources are rare.

I took four years of French. During that time I became pretty crafty. I can read write and speak French with a pretty good degree of fluency.

Besides the aforementioned languages I'd like to learn Italian Greek German Swedish Icelandic Irish and Turkish. Hopefully I'll be able to visit these places and learn from natural speakers.

Oh Goddess....to be able to learn Swedish, Icelandic and Irish would be a dream come true. Italian and Greek as well... Old English seems interesting, and learning Latin for my spells would be so cool if I could! Language lovers unite!

[DanieMarie]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

You can say that again! That is just about exactly how long I spent on German. The quality of adult language learning in the UK is appauling though. I studied from Deutsche Welle's 'Deutsche: Warum nicht!' series for a few months before I moved out there and then continued while I was there. When I came back to England, I started taking evening classes and was instantly moved from the beginners class to intermediate (yup, apparently by UK standards, you are intermediate if you know the rules for conjugating verbs and adjectives, I mean, what??). Then about 3 months later, because I was still studying from the podcast lessons, I was moved into the advanced class. I have taught English as a second language, so I think I have a rough idea of what characterises the stages of language aquisition and I don't think learning to use subordinate conjunctions is exactly 'advanced' (mid to late beginner at best). We were pushed to use German while doing groupwork, and our teacher (a native speaker) held a regular Stammtish, so I used to try to converse, but I wasn't conversational. I didn't have enough words at my command for a start, never mind the fact I couldn't remember the gender of words I DID know, so coudn't conjugate adjectives correctly and so on...

I wouldn't be hard on yourselves though. It's hard sometimes. I know the rules for conjugating adjectives and everything, but I seem to get them wrong a lot of the time. Mostly, it's because I'm terrible at remembering genders (assigning a gender to an inanimate object is just something I've never been good at), but sometimes it's just what comes out of my mouth, even when I'd know I was wrong if I actually gave it some thought. And this is after living here for 8 years, and living in a semi-bilingual household since April (semi-bilingual because we speak a lot more German than we do English!)

- - - Updated - - -

I think the fact that language learning is so poor in English speaking countries is pathetic. It's pretty embarrassing.

It really is. Here, English is mandatory, and you take a third language as an elective. My boyfriend says that so many people only speak English here out of necessity, but I don't know. I don't think they actually -need- to know it, they just think they do. The perceived importance is what matters. Most people don't need English for their jobs, but they fear they won't get a job if they can't speak it. If we placed that much importance on having a second language, we'd be better at it too.

My mom claims that language learning in Canada doesn't start early enough, and I think that would help, but it's not vital. Most people I know here started learning English in class 5 (around 10-11 years old). People do things like hire English nannies and put their kids in English pre-school now, but that doesn't affect my generation at all (wasn't really widely practiced in the 1980s).

Canada probably does better than a lot of places in the English-speaking world, but it's still pretty sad, considering it's technically a bilingual country. But I always say that Canada isn't really a bilingual country, it's a country with two languages. There are cities like Montreal and Ottawa where most people are bilingual, and people generally do better in Ontario, but once you get out west, you get "cereal box french", where french is limited to a few basic phrases and understanding labels on products. Quebec isn't a lot better...there are a lot of Quebecers who don't speak English, and local laws are getting -insane- with regards to limiting English in the province. It sort of feels like "this is the English part" and "this is the French part" and not "we're a country that speaks two languages." Although that's true in places like Belgium and Switzerland as well, I honestly think they do at least a little better than Canada does.

Learning languages involves valuing them. English speaking countries just don't seem to value it. I guess we don't have to, because English is such a dominant language, but I think it would be really helpful for other reasons.

[Jembru]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

遅く返事してごめん！最近は忙しくて、翻訳試験を完成させることに集中している。アニメが好きな人が上手な 日本語で意見が表せるようになってうれしいですね！うらやましいですね。

ええ、確かにえらいねあの彼。何よりも彼はすごく謙虚だよ！能力を示さずに自分は日本語がうまいと言ってい る人を時々見かけたけど、私の体験では、本当に日本語のすばらしい人はたいていそう言うことを言わないよう だ。自慢したり、鼻にかけたりしてばっかり人はそんなに日本人っぽくないといい、日本社交をやっぱり理解し ないのといい、思ってるより上手じゃないだろうと思う。この彼は非常に謙虚なので、日本人に褒められるのは ただ社交辞令じゃないと思う。それより、親切で情け深い男性だよ。日本人に話している時素早くペラペラと話 したけど私とJPと話したら、あたし達が分かるためにゆっくりと、はっきり話した！

Yeah, he's certainly awesome alright. But more than anything, he's humble. Now and then I'll come across people who claim to be great at Japanese without actually demonstrating their ability, but it seems that people who are genuinely good tend not to claim so. I think the fact that people who always boast or blow their own trumpet aren't very Japanese-like, and clearly don't understand Japanese society, means that they're probably not as good as they think they are. As this guy is so humble I don't think the praise he gets from the Japanese is only compliments for the sake of being polite. What's more, he's really kind and considerate too. When he spoke to Japanese people, he spoke really quickly and fluently, but if he spoke to me and JP, he spoke slowly and clearly so we could understand him!

私は日本語が話せたりするけど、Jembruさんの友達のように話せるようになりたいね。（ほかの人の言う ことを理解するのは時々難しくて、中級の会話は聞き取れるけど、話し言葉より書き言葉のほうが分かりやすい ）

このことをすっかり理解できるよ！あたしにも読解力と聴解は雲泥の差があるよ！特にネットで読んでいるの場 合、読むのは楽勝だ。読めない漢字をRikaikunで調べることができるからね。本の場合読みながら小さ な手著に読めない言葉を書いて、後で辞書を引いといてもう二度読んだら、もっとよく意味を受け取れる。でも 、会話ってめんどくさい！読解よりもっと話すのを上達させたい。そう言う訳で、このごろほとんどの勉強方法 は聞いて話す練習指向だ。　少しずつ上達しているみたいけど、大変ゆっくり！いつ上手に話せるようになるか 知らないわよ！

I totally understand this situation! For me too my ability to read and my ability to understand what I hear are worlds apart! Especially in the case of the Internet reading is no problem, because I can just look up kanji I can't read with rikaikun! When it comes to reading from books, if I write down words I can't read in a little notebook while I read, then check them in a dictionary before reading again, I can better grasp the meaning. However, conversations are a royal pain in my ass! More than being able to read, I really want to improve my speaking. For that reason, these days most of my study methods center around speaking and listening practice. I seem to be getting better little by little but it's unbearably slow. I don't know when I'll finally be able to speak well!

- - - Updated - - -

I wouldn't be hard on yourselves though. It's hard sometimes. I know the rules for conjugating adjectives and everything, but I seem to get them wrong a lot of the time. Mostly, it's because I'm terrible at remembering genders (assigning a gender to an inanimate object is just something I've never been good at), but sometimes it's just what comes out of my mouth, even when I'd know I was wrong if I actually gave it some thought. And this is after living here for 8 years, and living in a semi-bilingual household since April (semi-bilingual because we speak a lot more German than we do English!)

This is my problem with speaking second languages. I'm not advanced though, so my mistakes are worse than a few 'die's where a 'der' should be. In writing, I have a bit more time to think about the correct rules, so while I do make mistakes, it isn't as bad as when I speak. In speaking, I have to try to make split second grammar choices and it's too hard for me when I am also trying to think of the words I need to say. So while my Japanese friends understand what I am trying to say most of the time, I often say the opposite of what I mean, or generally just really obscure things. I generally find conversations mentally draining and often just to give my brain a break, I'll switch back into English. I know I shouldn't, because actually I am privileged to have so many Japanese friends I can meet face-to-face and so should be making the most of every opportunity I get to practice, but I just get so drained and stressed, so I quit (or try to quit, they have a way of pushing more Japanese out of me).

[DanieMarie]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

"Dings" (dings) is my favourite word, because if I forget a word, I can just be like "the thing". Since I frequently do it in English too, it doesn't really matter. Or, I do the other thing I do, which is throw in words from English in German. I also throw in German words in English, especially ones I only ever used in German. I have to actually think for a second to remember that "pfifferlinge" are "chanterelles", for example. I obviously put in more effort when I write, but when I talk in either language, I just end up with a sort of "meh" attitude. It was fun times when my parents were here a few weeks ago, because my dad doesn't speak any German.

[Jembru]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

"Dings" (dings) is my favourite word, because if I forget a word, I can just be like "the thing". Since I frequently do it in English too, it doesn't really matter. Or, I do the other thing I do, which is throw in words from English in German. I also throw in German words in English, especially ones I only ever used in German. I have to actually think for a second to remember that "pfifferlinge" are "chanterelles", for example. I obviously put in more effort when I write, but when I talk in either language, I just end up with a sort of "meh" attitude. It was fun times when my parents were here a few weeks ago, because my dad doesn't speak any German.

Haha, I use similar survival techniques. In fact, I never finished it but I started writing a kind of joke tutorial for the Japanese forum on how to cheat your way through a conversation. The using English thing works very well in Japanese, because so long as you pronounce it in an Japanese way, there is a pretty good chance it IS used in Japanese. Especially in casual conversation, you hear English expressions pretty frequently. In more formal situations they seem to like to use words borrowed from Chinese a lot, which for some reason I find a bit harder to remember than purely Japanese words (although I find as I am getting better at reading, remembering them by their kanji is making them stick in my mind more easily).

Mind you, there are some English expressions in Japanese that I don't actually know the English meaning of! For example, in casual Japanese, they like to use baseball expressions for non-baseball related situations. I think get 'safe' (Japanese 'sa-fu') as meaning 'to make it to a base', so when the Japanese will say 'girigiri sa-fu datta' for catching a bus before it leaves, making it to an appointment on time, catching the start of a movie, if they were running late and worried they might not be on time, I kinda get where this came from. The one that gets me is 'pinchi hitta- (pinch hitter?). This means nothing to me in English. In Japanese, I think it means a last minute substitute. So like, I've booked a table for 6, but one of our party had to drop out, so another member brings along a friend in their place.. that friend is the 'pinchi hitta-'.. I think.

But yeah, even verbs can be stolen from English in Japanese, by adding 'suru' to the word. My favourite such verb is 'o-ru suru' from 'all' and short for 'to pull an all nighter'. Yeah, I know mainly drinking and socialising related vocabulary: well, I can't speak Japanese without my 'jouzu-juice' <-this is an in-joke at the oshaberi-kai (stammtisch, there's no good word in English ^^), referring to the fact that the drunker I get, the more Japanese I speak, because 'jouzu' means 'skillful'! ^^

[DanieMarie]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

You're right...there is no good word for Stammtisch in English!

[Jembru]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

I tend to say, 'conversation group' but it sounds really weird and doesn't really have the nuance of meeting for a specific purpose. Although to be honest, the Japanese doesn't either, it's literally, 'chat gathering' ^^ I love the word Stammtisch, it's so unique to German culture.

[Simatong]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

"Dings" (dings) is my favourite word, because if I forget a word, I can just be like "the thing". Since I frequently do it in English too, it doesn't really matter. Or, I do the other thing I do, which is throw in words from English in German. I also throw in German words in English, especially ones I only ever used in German. I have to actually think for a second to remember that "pfifferlinge" are "chanterelles", for example. I obviously put in more effort when I write, but when I talk in either language, I just end up with a sort of "meh" attitude. It was fun times when my parents were here a few weeks ago, because my dad doesn't speak any German.

Oh my god!.... The word "thing", in ANY language, is like one of the best words ever when I get stuck. Though sometimes, when I can't figure out a word, I just try describing it in the language. For instance, I can't say male cross-dresser in Japanese, so I might end up saying something like onna no fuku wo kiru no ga suki na otoko ("a guy who likes wearing female clothes"). Do you do this?

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I tend to say, 'conversation group' but it sounds really weird and doesn't really have the nuance of meeting for a specific purpose. Although to be honest, the Japanese doesn't either, it's literally, 'chat gathering' ^^ I love the word Stammtisch, it's so unique to German culture.

私の日本語の先生は大学の食堂で日本語のチャットのためのイベントを行っていた。名前はランチテーブル。そ の名前が好きだけど、問題は、多くの日本語を勉強していた学生が文法とかを間違えたくなくて、 それで、[こんにちは」などという挨拶以外の言葉はたいていあまり使われてなかったってことだった。Stammtis chにもそういう問題がある？それとも、学生が話しかけるの？
My Japanese teacher and been holding events for chatting in the college cafeteria, calling them lunch tables. The problem was that a lot of the students studying Japanese were afraid of making mistakes, and so words outside of the salutations like "hello/good afternoon" weren't really used all that much. Were there problems like that at Stamtisch, or did the students engage in coversation?

[Jembru]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

Oh my god!.... The word "thing", in ANY language, is like one of the best words ever when I get stuck. Though sometimes, when I can't figure out a word, I just try describing it in the language. For instance, I can't say male cross-dresser in Japanese, so I might end up saying something like onna no fuku wo kiru no ga suki na otoko ("a guy who likes wearing female clothes"). Do you do this?

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私の日本語の先生は大学の食堂で日本語のチャットのためのイベントを行っていた。名前はランチテーブル。そ の名前が好きだけど、問題は、多くの日本語を勉強していた学生が文法とかを間違えたくなくて、 それで、[こんにちは」などという挨拶以外の言葉はたいていあまり使われてなかったってことだった。Stammtis chにもそういう問題がある？それとも、学生が話しかけるの？
My Japanese teacher and been holding events for chatting in the college cafeteria, calling them lunch tables. The problem was that a lot of the students studying Japanese were afraid of making mistakes, and so words outside of the salutations like "hello/good afternoon" weren't really used all that much. Were there problems like that at Stamtisch, or did the students engage in coversation?

The conversation group is an informal gathering that myself and my language exchange partner started about 6 months ago, so it's not really a student thing. I do know a Japanese teacher and she comes along when we do proper planned activities sometimes, but mostly it's just informal drinking sessions. How much Japanese is used depends largely on who shows up. Lately, some of the Japanese members have been in Japan and we've had a new member join who has only just started studying Japanese, so while there was hardly any English a few months ago, it's been the opposite lately. Since Andy joined our ranks, it should get back to what it was. There's another English guy who speaks very well, but he's reading law and will be leaving us to do a placement down London, so Andy will replace him. When the Japanese return, it will be heavily Japanese again. It's do or die then!

If you meant the stammtisch my German class ran, then not a single word of English was ever used (and I am not kidding), unless it was to ask how to say something. They were informal and also involved beer, but our teacher kept us on task!

[DanieMarie]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

I tend to say, 'conversation group' but it sounds really weird and doesn't really have the nuance of meeting for a specific purpose. Although to be honest, the Japanese doesn't either, it's literally, 'chat gathering' ^^ I love the word Stammtisch, it's so unique to German culture.

Meetup is usually big, but I don't really think it's the same. Meetups can be specific, but they can take any form...mixing and mingling on foot, going to a festival, etc. Stammtisch is sitting around a table and talking about a specific thing (or, if you're outside of Germany, sitting around a table and talking in German).

I was thinking about language learning this morning and how hard we always are on ourselves. I sort of thought, why compare yourself to others? (I was talking to myself here). Different people have different language learning abilities, so it's so hard to compare yourself to them. I realized it's a better idea to compare yourself to yourself in the past. Like, think about how well you were doing 6 months ago, and see what progress you've made. I guess that's true for any skill (or life in general), but it works well for languages!

[Jembru]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

Meetup is usually big, but I don't really think it's the same. Meetups can be specific, but they can take any form...mixing and mingling on foot, going to a festival, etc. Stammtisch is sitting around a table and talking about a specific thing (or, if you're outside of Germany, sitting around a table and talking in German).

I was thinking about language learning this morning and how hard we always are on ourselves. I sort of thought, why compare yourself to others? (I was talking to myself here). Different people have different language learning abilities, so it's so hard to compare yourself to them. I realized it's a better idea to compare yourself to yourself in the past. Like, think about how well you were doing 6 months ago, and see what progress you've made. I guess that's true for any skill (or life in general), but it works well for languages!

I wanted to say this earlier, but actually, you have been around through much of my linguistic journey and you have often given me words of encouragement that really stick. You are living proof that you can learn a language without being academic and stiff about it. I focus almost entirely on conversational style Japanese, because being able to read and write in the style of newspapers or legal documents just doesn't interest me. Although it's much rarer the better my Japanese gets (few people would take me for a dumb anime weeaboo now), I still find people look down their noses at me for not studying the language formally. Yet you remind me that actually, language is about communicating, making friends, forming relationships... not knowing the difference between, 'if I were you' and 'if I was you', which at the end of the day, matters very little.

Meeting others who are studying languages, especially Japanese, has given me a lot more confidence. I have met people who have JLPT2 (second highest level proficiency test), but can't speak as well as I can, they can speak more accurately (I couldn't use grammar to save my life), but you can tell they don't get to speak as often as I do. Then there are people like JP who have never studied Japanese, and yet can speak much more relaxed than I can and while he uses zero grammar, he can talk pretty smoothly. So I've come to realize that like you say, we not only have different language abilities but even within language learning, some are better at remembering vocabulary but struggle with grammar, others find speaking easy from an early level, but never seem to train their ear to the language.. then there are all rounders like my friend Andy who have a genuine gift for languages, and people like me who have bags of enthusiasm but need to work that little harder to progress.

So yeah, I try not to compare myself to others. I even started to share videos of myself speaking, knowing people would laugh at my mistakes, because it was like saying to the world (and ultimately myself), 'look, I know I'm not great yet, but at least I am trying my best and giving it 100%, so I really don't care what others think anymore'. I'm starting to believe it too.. although I do still blush when I make bad typos (like I did on fb yesterday and almost died of embarrassment when my friend Kanako, pointed it out ^^).

I was actually going to try to translate my last reply to Simatong now that I'm home. Maybe I shouldn't. Ah what the heck, it's good practice. I really don't write as often as I should.

おしゃべり会って、６ヶ月ぐらい前言語交換相手と始めた気楽な集まりなので、別に学生関係ないものだし。日 本語の先生の知り合いもいるけど、組織したイベントとかにしか来てくれないの。大体ただ気さくな飲み会や飲 み歩きやボックスカラなどよね！出席者によって日本語量が違う。最近、日本人メンバーは何人か帰国している し、日本語では全くの初心者も入会したし。それで、前１，２ヶ月会話はほとんど日本語なのに、今は逆になっ た。この間述べた日本語うまいアンディーくんのおかげで日本語が増えるはずだ。外の得意なメンバーもいるけ ど、法学を学んでいるために、すぐ研修期間でロンドンに行って会われなくなるの。アンディーくんが代わるか も。日本人が帰ったら、また日本語いっぱいになると思う。あの時、頑張らなきゃ！

ドイツ語クラスの「Stammtisch」なら、禁止なので、英語の一言を言わなかった！本気だよね。気楽 な飲み会もだったけど、先生は私たちをドイツ語だけで話させた！

じゃ、おしゃべり会の写真を見せたいんだけど。。。
(hey, I want to share some pics from the conversation group)...

Drinking competition:



Beer Garden:



pub lunch:



Cocktails at box karaoke:



Pool:


So yeah, basically, the 'conversation group' is just a weekly gathering to hang out, let our hair down, and chat in Japanese. The Japanese members get to take a break from English and just be themselves in L1 for a few hours, and we get a submersive environment to practice in, so it's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and speaking Japanese is hard to avoid!