Guns

[MaskedOne]

Re: Guns

Why is there a multi-page debate in a hobby thread? Nevermind, I don't care. It's a dead horse of a debate. Find another topic. I'm entirely too sick to be interested in splitting this into two different issues or encouraging the continuance of a debate we see twice a year and thrice on leap year.

Closed.

[thalassa]

Re: Guns

The other day, a guy from out of town walked into a church here and threatened to shoot the pastor and the people who were there. The pastor and some of the folks were carrying, so the guy re-thought pretty quick, no one got shot, and he was apprehended. It could have gone 100 ways, I guess, but in any event he wasn't walking out of there on his own.

They were all lucky.

Sure, people use guns to defensively in this manner plenty:

he NRA points to phone surveys from the 1990s that suggest Americans might use their guns defensively millions of times every year, though even the most charitable efforts to actually document such incidents come up with fewer than 2,000difficult to documenthttp://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...un-laws-213222

But this dude got robbed with his own gun. As did this one. Or the nine ordinary people injured by police apprenenting one gunman (who only fired at the guy he wanted to kill). This guy got shot by the "bad guy" who then went on to take everyone hostage.

The reality of the "good guy with a gun" myth is that most "good guys" aren't trained to overcome biology and even then, sometimes they still get it wrong (but when they get it right, its generally because they have training--like this security guard or this former marine). When it comes to gun myths, its about as good as the "its not fair to law abiding citizens because criminals will still have guns" myth.


My personal favorite comes from a study on defensive gun use:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...v010p00096.pdf

Killer toddlers seems like it would be so easy to prevent...and yet we have this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/w...ear/?tid=sm_fb

[ThePaganMafia]

Re: Guns

The problem is there is no middle ground for the gun lobby. Any gun legislation is seen as some massive gun grab. The fact is no one is coming for anyone's guns. Law abiding citizens aren't going to have federal agents knocking at their doors asking for them to turn in their guns.

Gun control legislation such as background checks work to prevent guns in the hands of people who shouldn't have ghem. This is common sense. There is no common sense in today's political climate though. There is no middle ground. The extreme fear and propaganda has made real conversation and action almost impossible.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Guns

The other day, a guy from out of town walked into a church here and threatened to shoot the pastor and the people who were there. The pastor and some of the folks were carrying, so the guy re-thought pretty quick, no one got shot, and he was apprehended. It could have gone 100 ways, I guess, but in any event he wasn't walking out of there on his own.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Guns

The problem is that our love of guns has (collectively, as represented by the squeaky wheel faction which is far louder than the silent and rational faction*) has become the unhealthy obsession of an abusive partner.

The same thing seems to happen on every single issue of any importance, and of no importance at all, so I'm just being general

But you are right. That squeaky wheel always gets greased, while ignoring the quietly bad bearing causes the wheel to fall off on the highway.

[thalassa]

Re: Guns

IMHO - the problem isn't with the "love of guns" it's with the fear mongering that equates sensible gun laws with total disarmament, and those organizations that urge people into stupidity.

People in this country seem to be enamored to B&W thinking and being used by various groups through that unhealthy love. The actual solution to real problems is to think things through like an adult with a capable brain rather than letting others do your thinking for you.

Yeah, it's work.

Do it anyway.

The problem is that our love of guns has (collectively, as represented by the squeaky wheel faction which is far louder than the silent and rational faction*) has become the unhealthy obsession of an abusive partner.




*"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" (oh, such irony considering the source of the quote)--what the silent and rational majority thinks doesn't matter when all they do is sit on their hands or cower in the corner.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Guns

IMHO - the problem isn't with the "love of guns" it's with the fear mongering that equates sensible gun laws with total disarmament, and those organizations that urge people into stupidity.

People in this country seem to be enamored to B&W thinking and being used by various groups through that unhealthy love. The actual solution to real problems is to think things through like an adult with a capable brain rather than letting others do your thinking for you.

Yeah, it's work.

Do it anyway.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Guns

It's about time. The man has done enough to expand my ability to carry a gun, it's about time he did something that makes some sense. As a responsible gun owner I applaud the opportunity to be responsible. IMO anyone that doesn't support background checks isn't someone that should have a gun in the first place.

And the Constitutional line is such BS....we restrict Constitutional rights all the time---you can't yell fire in a crowded room or bomb in an airport and say "oh, I'm just exercising my 1st amendment right" as a get out of jail card. And come on, anyone that supports voter ID laws and doesn't support universal background checks is a hypocrite--let's ID people over imaginary fraud for something that barely matters on an individual but pitch a toddler hissy fit over making sure one isn't a felon before legally selling them something that can be used to kill people in large numbers?!? The mental gymnastics that takes is frightening.

Let's face it, last week an 11 shot an 8 year old little girl because she wouldn't let him see her puppy. Last year, a toddler blew his face away. A kid kills a sibling thinking a gun is unloaded. Kids walk into schools with their parents guns and shoot them up. There is a problem with our love of guns in this country. I'm willing to bet most of those parents would have said they were law abiding, contentious fire arm owners before the day their babies became killers (and research supports this).

And while universal background checks and safe storage laws won't eliminate the problem, if it can even put a dent in it, I'm patriotic enough to give it a go. At least it's not sticking my head in the sand while the NRA pulls the strings to hundreds of lawmakers.

Bravo. This makes so much sense.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Guns

As gun owner, I support background checks.

There are people who have legal guns that scare me because they are dangerous as all shit.

A guy near here shot a person three years in a row while hunting. Please take his gun away, somebody, and get him into AA!

And I am not an NRA member because I think they do more harm than good.

[thalassa]

Re: Guns

looks like Obama might use executive order to bypass the system to enact laws by ballot because he knows it would not fly ... he is just using this latest shooting to further his agenda ... http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015...ntcmp=obinsite

It's about time. The man has done enough to expand my ability to carry a gun, it's about time he did something that makes some sense. As a responsible gun owner I applaud the opportunity to be responsible. IMO anyone that doesn't support background checks isn't someone that should have a gun in the first place.

And the Constitutional line is such BS....we restrict Constitutional rights all the time---you can't yell fire in a crowded room or bomb in an airport and say "oh, I'm just exercising my 1st amendment right" as a get out of jail card. And come on, anyone that supports voter ID laws and doesn't support universal background checks is a hypocrite--let's ID people over imaginary fraud for something that barely matters on an individual but pitch a toddler hissy fit over making sure one isn't a felon before legally selling them something that can be used to kill people in large numbers?!? The mental gymnastics that takes is frightening.

Let's face it, last week an 11 shot an 8 year old little girl because she wouldn't let him see her puppy. Last year, a toddler blew his face away. A kid kills a sibling thinking a gun is unloaded. Kids walk into schools with their parents guns and shoot them up. There is a problem with our love of guns in this country. I'm willing to bet most of those parents would have said they were law abiding, contentious fire arm owners before the day their babies became killers (and research supports this).

And while universal background checks and safe storage laws won't eliminate the problem, if it can even put a dent in it, I'm patriotic enough to give it a go. At least it's not sticking my head in the sand while the NRA pulls the strings to hundreds of lawmakers.

[magusphredde]

Re: Guns

looks like Obama might use executive order to bypass the system to enact laws by ballot because he knows it would not fly ... he is just using this latest shooting to further his agenda ... http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015...ntcmp=obinsite

[magusphredde]

Re: Guns

Load the mains with grapeshot and chains ... Prepare to give 'er a broadside as she comes about me hearties ...

- - - Updated - - -

I want this ... Even if I have to make one ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbvbLCs7iJ4

[DanieMarie]

Re: Guns

I'll have to agree with you there. I just wanted to challenge the idea that the UK ban was not successful. Not that the same policy could be applicable to the US.

Anyway, I'm going to back out of this thread, because this is not really the place for debate. It is a thread for gun collectors in the Hobbies section, and their thread has been derailed. On my part, I am sorry for contributing to that derailment.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Guns

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are the articles you posted:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/sep/03/ukguns.tonythompson

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/dec/31/ukcrime.ukguns

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/16/ukguns1

Published 2000, 2000, and 2001.

Yup - my bad. when I searched them, they all showed up as 2015. Not sure why...

The statistics I posted cover a 15-year period between 1996 and 2011 and show an overall drop in gun deaths and homicides in that time period (the ban on handguns was enacted in 1996). The sharpest drop occurred directly after 1996. I think it's hard to say that gun crime was worse after the ban, despite what some UK-based nutjob interest groups would want everyone else to believe.

They have (as pointed out) decreased in the US as well, without a ban. Compare pre and post ban UK, compare it to drops in US crime rates in the same period, determine whether the differences fall within the standard deviation, then determine who deserves the title "nutjob."

Until somebody provides REAL information, the jury on who is blowing smoke (and deserves the derogatory term "nutjob") and who isn't will remain out.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Guns

Crime in most developed countries, including the US, has been dropping since the mid 90s/2000s.

It bears a striking correlation with a generation gap from the decline of environmental lead.

Crime has a huge number of contributory factors, of which gun availability is only one. Trying to parse out what is what, is difficult for the people that do this for a living, muchless for the peanut gallery, And that is without discussing the problem of bias.

This is true...and there are definitely a lot of factors that go into crime besides just guns. I'm not trying to deny that. I'm just trying to challenge the idea that gun control has been a failure in the UK. It has not.