Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Thanks for the cookie though... om nom nom:cthulhu:

[Dumuzi]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

I finally have some free time! (sorry it took me so long to reply)

I feel like I do this to you too often. I'm sorry if I bug you with it too much - I just look to you to help me out when I get caught up in this hateful mess because I don't feel equipped to offer sufficient answers.

Oh, I love it when you come to me with these questions! So keep doing it.

This video is an oldy, someone on YouTube made a response to it, so if you have the time go watch it. Here it is:

As for what I might say about this video, I'd begin by pointing out that the author of this video hasn't mentioned one single verse from the Qur'an to support his claims. So why should we believe him?

Another thing you can mention to your step-father is that the whole violent verses abrogation thing is false for two very clear reasons. First, you have lots of 'peaceful' verses that were revealed way later. Such as:

"So if they argue with you, say, "I have submitted myself to Allah [in Islam], and [so have] those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture and [to] the unlearned, "Have you submitted yourselves?" And if they submit [in Islam], they are rightly guided; but if they turn away - then it is your duty only to convey the message. And Allah is Seeing of [His] servants."[3:20]

"The duty of Our Messenger is only to convey the Message. Allah knows what you disclose and what you conceal."[5:99]

"O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah, witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do."[5:8]

"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing."[2:256]

Second point, while the Qur'an does indeed contain verses about fighting and commandants to fight others, the video fails to mention that these exact same parts of the Qur'an talk about whom and why to fight. That is, fighting is only allowed in certain situations. So even these 'violent' verses aren't really contradicting, or in need of abrogation, because they don't contradict anything else previously mentioned. And here are examples from the parts of the Qur'an that talk about fighting:

"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors." [2:190]

"And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. " [2:193]

"Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers." [9:13]

"Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory."

"[They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might." [22:39-40]

Notice in the last verse I quoted it mentions places of worship of Jews and Christians such as churches and synagogues BEFORE it mentions mosques. So according to those violent verses that talk about fighting, a Muslim is supposed to fight to protect places of worship of non Muslims!

Even outside of the Qur'an you'll find many examples of protecting non Muslims, as opposed to violently fight them for their religion as the author of the video claims without providing any proof for it from the Qur'an.

Muhammad, peace be upon him, said: “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim citizen, curtails their rights, burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I will complain against the offender on the Day of Resurrection.” (Abu Dawud)

I have a ton more evidence to support my claim but I don't wanna spam my own thread! Hope that clears things up for you a bit. Keep the questions coming, I have the time to answer them.

[Raphaeline]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Thank you very much! Very helpful

[anunitu]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

That was very interesting D,thinking that God(s dess) have a little better lock on this thing we have called life. If only we mere mortals could understand what we read better than we seem to be doing.

[Pallas]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

In Christianity and Judaism they have been moving forward quite a bit and bringing the religion more up with times; i.e accepting gays, being more accepting towards divorce... I have many Muslims friends and my mother's side has a lot of Muslims and I can say many of them are doing that with Islam as well. I see many saying now that hijab aren't even required in Islam, some even say it never really said that in the Qu'ran. I even see gay Muslims.

So my question would be: As a Muslim, how do you feel about the younger generation of Muslims being more accepting towards these once taboos and even giving up the hijab? Do you feel the Middle East and all Islam-practicing countries will be open to this sort of change? (Not asking from a political perspective, just simply culturally)

[Dumuzi]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

So my question would be: As a Muslim, how do you feel about the younger generation of Muslims being more accepting towards these once taboos and even giving up the hijab? Do you feel the Middle East and all Islam-practicing countries will be open to this sort of change? (Not asking from a political perspective, just simply culturally)

Hi Pallas!

Your question is very interesting but a bit hard to answer. It totally depends on what you mean by accepting on one hand, and it also depends on time and place. I don't think there's anything wrong with wearing the hijab, for example. Though my mother doesn't wear it but over here people are OK with it. But like I said, it depends on the place, especially when it comes to women.

The biggest Muslim countries in the world (in terms of a Muslim majority) like Indonesia, Pakistan and Bangladesh all had female leaders, presidents and prime ministers. As opposed to Saudi Arabia that won't even allow women to drive, let alone lead their whole country.

I would add that I personally consider myself a fundamentalist, in terms of following the fundamentals of my religion. I think Muslims would do much better if they learned about going back to the root of their religion as opposed to their culture. In the past there was a time when Jewish people would move to Muslim countries because they had to flee Europe and their treatment of Jews. Sadly, today in some places it's the other way round. The first universities of our world were built by Muslim women. Today, in some places women have a hard time getting an education.

So like I said, it's a complex issue. Hope that made sense to you.

[Pallas]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Hi Pallas!

Your question is very interesting but a bit hard to answer. It totally depends on what you mean by accepting on one hand, and it also depends on time and place. I don't think there's anything wrong with wearing the hijab, for example. Though my mother doesn't wear it but over here people are OK with it. But like I said, it depends on the place, especially when it comes to women.

The biggest Muslim countries in the world (in terms of a Muslim majority) like Indonesia, Pakistan and Bangladesh all had female leaders, presidents and prime ministers. As opposed to Saudi Arabia that won't even allow women to drive, let alone lead their whole country.

I would add that I personally consider myself a fundamentalist, in terms of following the fundamentals of my religion. I think Muslims would do much better if they learned about going back to the root of their religion as opposed to their culture. In the past there was a time when Jewish people would move to Muslim countries because they had to flee Europe and their treatment of Jews. Sadly, today in some places it's the other way round. The first universities of our world were built by Muslim women. Today, in some places women have a hard time getting an education.

So like I said, it's a complex issue. Hope that made sense to you.

That does make sense! That has always been my understanding, that it varies from country to country. Though they all have Islam, that does not mean they all will execute it the same way.

[Heka]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Hi Dumuzi,

First I want to say how excited I am that this forum has a Muslim thread, definitely influenced my decision to sign up!

Second, my own Islamic background (not that I've ever been a Muslim). I study (and now also teach) Indonesian. As you know Indonesia is a hugely Muslim country so I've come to look into Islam a bit more. I have many Muslim friends (nearly all from Aceh, which I assume you know has autonomy from the Indonesian government and practises Sharia), who are very Muslim and who have taught me a lot. I also practise Ramadhan. A few years back my teacher at uni encouraged us to fast between lessons. I managed 4 days that year, and have fasted 16 straight for the last two (hit my period and it falls in a heap!). I think it's a fantastic practise, and pretty much think the five pillars rock.

Which brings me to thirdly. I always defend Islam against ignorance, but there are two arguments I would like to ask you about.
1. Taqiyyah. Apparently Muslims are encouraged to lie to being people to their side? Or at least that was the way it was portrayed. Could you please clear this up for me?
2. I've heard people say that the 'peaceful' Quran quotes are all from early in the book, and that the 'hateful' ones are later on, with inconsistencies inevitable though this. Mohammad admitted that there would be inconsistencies and so followers must follow the later teachings. This argument has been used by people to say that Islam is hateful, because any peaceful bits are nullified by the later bits. Thoughts?

Thank you!

[Raphaeline]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Hi Dumuzi,

First I want to say how excited I am that this forum has a Muslim thread, definitely influenced my decision to sign up!

Second, my own Islamic background (not that I've ever been a Muslim). I study (and now also teach) Indonesian. As you know Indonesia is a hugely Muslim country so I've come to look into Islam a bit more. I have many Muslim friends (nearly all from Aceh, which I assume you know has autonomy from the Indonesian government and practises Sharia), who are very Muslim and who have taught me a lot. I also practise Ramadhan. A few years back my teacher at uni encouraged us to fast between lessons. I managed 4 days that year, and have fasted 16 straight for the last two (hit my period and it falls in a heap!). I think it's a fantastic practise, and pretty much think the five pillars rock.

Which brings me to thirdly. I always defend Islam against ignorance, but there are two arguments I would like to ask you about.
1. Taqiyyah. Apparently Muslims are encouraged to lie to being people to their side? Or at least that was the way it was portrayed. Could you please clear this up for me?
2. I've heard people say that the 'peaceful' Quran quotes are all from early in the book, and that the 'hateful' ones are later on, with inconsistencies inevitable though this. Mohammad admitted that there would be inconsistencies and so followers must follow the later teachings. This argument has been used by people to say that Islam is hateful, because any peaceful bits are nullified by the later bits. Thoughts?

Thank you!

This post might be helpful:

http://www.paganforum.com/showthread.php?67-Questions-about-Islam-(Ask-Away!)&p=75619&viewfull=1#post75619

[Consciousness]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Which brings me to thirdly. I always defend Islam against ignorance, but there are two arguments I would like to ask you about.
1. Taqiyyah. Apparently Muslims are encouraged to lie to being people to their side? Or at least that was the way it was portrayed. Could you please clear this up for me?
2. I've heard people say that the 'peaceful' Quran quotes are all from early in the book, and that the 'hateful' ones are later on, with inconsistencies inevitable though this. Mohammad admitted that there would be inconsistencies and so followers must follow the later teachings. This argument has been used by people to say that Islam is hateful, because any peaceful bits are nullified by the later bits. Thoughts?

I used to be muslim for about 7 years or so. Maybe I can be of some help.

Taqiyyah is exagerated usually by non muslims and sometimes Sunnis slandering Shia (accusing them of using taqiyyah to conceal their faith). This was more done when muslims were in danger from different pagan tribes in Arabia. For example its not permissible to say that you believe in other Gods, but if you were threatened you could pretend to not be muslim as long as in your heart you still had imaan (faith).

2. What they are referring to are Meccan verses. These were the revelation before hijrah (migration to medina). During this time Muslims were to not wage war against the pagans. This is where you get a lot of the peaceful verses you mentioned. They were to turn the other cheek in other words. It was not until the Medina period where war was bestowed on the Ummah (muslim community).

This subject is a major issue of debate amongst Sunnis. The reason why some have suggested that later is when abrogation of previous versus occur is because the famous ahadith (collection of alleged sayings of Muhammad). In these text you will find follow up on more war type teachings. Some ahadith can be troubling for some. This is where the Sunni debate comes in. Not all obviously interpret the verses and ahadith the same way. The trouble I think sunnis have is they regard Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim (both are collection of ahadith) as being authentic without question. They regard them as have strong isnad (chain of narrations) back to the Prophet. So either some have to explain the ahadith away while others may embrace it with some type of jihadi tendency.

Here is an example of a troubling hadith that is narrated from Abu Dawud and classed as Sahih or authentic by scholars of hadith:

Abu Dawood (4361) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas that a blind man had a freed concubine (umm walad) who used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him. He told her not to do that but she did not stop, and he rebuked her but she did not heed him. One night, when she started to say bad things about the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and insult him, he took a short sword or dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it and killed her. The following morning that was mentioned to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He called the people together and said, “I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right over him that he should stand up.” The blind man stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I am the one who did it; she used to insult you and say bad things about you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not give up her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was kind to me. Last night she began to insult you and say bad things about you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.” Thereupon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Bear witness, there is no blood money due for her.”
(Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 3655)

These verses are troubling some for those who do not buy into the Jihadi applications of the Qur'an and sunnah.

My view of this is that ahadith are flawed. This will not be accepted by the majority of muslims, because without ahadith you cannot learn how to put your hands or certain movements during prayer. Also some verses of the Qur'an will make no sense if you do not know the back story from ahadith. But in my opinion the Umayyad governments are the ones who infiltrated political teachings in ahadith.

Here is just one example that I base my claims: From Bukhari

Narrated Ibn 'Umar (Radi-Allahu 'anhu): We used to compare the people as to who was better during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle (Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam). We used to regard Abu Bakr as the best, then 'Umar, and then 'Uthman.
(Bukhari Vol. 5 : No. 7)

Its interesting that the ahadith were written much later during the Umayad reign. So no doubt to me they used ahadith to influence the populace. Here in this hadith we have a hadith in praise (stating a comparison of who is better). It begins with Abu bakr, Umar, and Uthman. It is not so surprising that the leaders after the death of the Prophet were Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman. After that it was the famous cousin and son in law of the Prophet known as Ali ibn abu Talib. He is not mentioned as Bukhari shows that there was some issues shortly after the death of the Prophet (I am not using Shia ahadith here).

The point is to me its quite fishy that this ahadith was supposedly said by the Prophet and it so happens that the political environment set the stage for these 3 men. Now I am not saying Abu bakr, Umar, and Uthman are evil or whatever. I am just suggesting that I think the Umayyad had a role in ahadith. So I think it is the Umayyad that used and infiltrated more violent ahadith such as the first one I posted where a man killed a woman who insulted the Prophet and the Prophet Muhammad praised him for it. I think these are possible slanders against the Prophet.

I enjoy more of the Sufi interpretation of Islam such as Ahmad Hulusi and others who speak of true Wahdat ul wujud (Oneness with Allah). They do not use any of the violent ahadith to justify gross atrocities like fundamentalist.

[Dumuzi]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Hi Dumuzi,

First I want to say how excited I am that this forum has a Muslim thread, definitely influenced my decision to sign up!

Hey Heka!

Glad you decided to sign up You do have a very interesting background. Indonesia has the biggest Muslim population in the world.

As Raphaeline has mentioned, I did address your questions in a previous post. I'd advice you to watch the video I posted because it talks about both questions, as opposed to just the second one. I go into more detail about the second question in my post.

Also if you still have any questions after reading my reply, or if you want me to clarify something that I said, let me know right away!

[Consciousness]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Dumuzi,

Your answer is not answering the question, I appreciate the time and effort you put in on your posts so i will give you some country's where Islamic and sharia law are in function, these may not be the most populated of country's but where the systems named are in place,

Afghanistan Islamic law
Iran Islamic law
Libya Islamic law
Nigeria Sharia
Oman Sharia and tribal custom laws
Saudi Arabia Islamic law
Sudan Based on Islamic law
Yemen Islamic law

Hope this helps in finding the answer to my question.

Modi

Resurrecting an old question.

The closest Islamic state that has been established is Iran and Saudi arabia. There are some problems here though. Firstly Iran is a Shia nation. So many Sunnis will reject its an Islamic state. In Iran women can vote, but they cannot run for President etc.


Saudi Arabia is mixed with Islamic law and other secular laws. Saudi Arabia will be very Islamic in certain aspects, but yet allow usury (which is forbidden) in their banking systems and a lot of other errors. One such errors is allowing the US to have bases in Saudi Arabia. This is something that the Prophet Muhammad would never want as he on his death bed asked for the expulsion of Jews and christians from the arab peninsula. This is attributed to Sahih bukhari and Sahih muslim. The fact is there is no such Islamic state as Dumuzi pointed out. The Taliban was most likely one of the closest (perhaps closer than even Iran and for sure closer to an Islamic state than Saudi arabia).

I do not think there is really equality between men and women in Islam. But the question is what type of Islam are we speaking of? The Sufi sects are much more lenient and within some of those circles i would say women are given more equality. But there is a lot of things in the Quran that may show inequality. Again its all based on how you interpret the Quran. Here is a verse:

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand. (Surah 4 Ayah 34).

Many people defend this verse stating from ahadith that the hitting is 'light'. Some likened it to hitting a woman with a handkerchief or a feather. Sufis have a more esoteric explanation of this verse in relations to the soul. But a lot of orthodoxy will maintain this practice. Theres ahadith attributed to Aisha (one of the wives of the Prophet) who complained after this verse was revealed that men were hurting women even leaving (green marks). In defense of the verse we are told that when a man hits the woman he should not leave a mark, draw blood, or break bones.

If i read the Quran as it is this is troublesome. But I will say perhaps a Sufi interpretation would be better.

Again it all goes back to sects, paths, and who you ask concerning these things, You will get 101 answers.

[Dumuzi]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Hey Consciousness

Thanks for taking the time to share your opinion in this thread. But I have to say that I disagree with some of the points that you have brought up. Fro example:

What they are referring to are Meccan verses. These were the revelation before hijrah (migration to medina).

While the historical background that you mentioned is 100% correct, it's not correct to state that 'peaceful' verses were only revealed during the time of Mecca. This is an ayah found in Surat Al-Baqarah, which was revealed in Madinah: "There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing." [2:256]

The verses of the Qur'an complete each other. There is no contradiction between verses that talk about fighting and verses that talk about being kind and just to non Muslims. Because the verses that talk about fighting explain why and when to fight, and why and when to not fight. I say more about this post in my previous post. (Don't want to make this too long)

The closest Islamic state that has been established is Iran and Saudi arabia.

Are you suggesting their law is based on the Qur'an and Sunnah? These countries (and others) use the word Islamic the same way North Korea uses the word Democratic in its name. Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world that doesn't permit women to drive, I wish they'd explain to other Muslims how this makes sense. If Islamic law was applied in Saudi Arabia, most of their rulers would be trialed for lots of crimes. But most of them are above the law.

The original poster was giving me examples of 'Islamic' countries and was asking about women that can vote. I mentioned that they do vote in those countries, except Saudi Arabia, where even men cannot vote most of the time. I also explained how the biggest Muslim countries in the world had female leaders (presidents and prime ministers). Of course, that doesn't mean they don't have serious women issues over there. But that's another topic.

I do not think there is really equality between men and women in Islam.

Both men and women are equal in front of god. Again here are examples from the Qur'an:

"Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer - We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do."

"And whoever does righteous deeds, whether male or female, while being a believer - those will enter Paradise and will not be wronged, [even as much as] the speck on a date seed."

"And their Lord responded to them, "Never will I allow to be lost the work of [any] worker among you, whether male or female; you are of one another. So those who emigrated or were evicted from their homes or were harmed in My cause or fought or were killed - I will surely remove from them their misdeeds, and I will surely admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow as reward from Allah , and Allah has with Him the best reward.""

The second verse is actually from the same Surah that you mentioned that talks about 'beating' women.

However according to Islam, men and women are different. Which is why different rules apply to them. That doesn't mean they aren't equal in front of god, just like you see in the examples that I have given.

Again it all goes back to sects, paths, and who you ask concerning these things, You will get 101 answers.

I advice anyone wanting to learn about Islam to read straight from the source and make up your own mind. It's important to learn from scholars if you want to go deeper, but don't let the whole different schools of thought or sects get in the way. In Islam we have the advantage of having the Qur'an. There are no different versions of it, and there's only one language. Use this advantage to learn about Islam, as opposed to believing ever thing they say on the TV.

[Consciousness]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

While the historical background that you mentioned is 100% correct, it's not correct to state that 'peaceful' verses were only revealed during the time of Mecca. This is an ayah found in Surat Al-Baqarah, which was revealed in Madinah: "There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing." [2:256]



9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.

Without a doubt offensive fighting was ordained. There is no compulsion in religion, yes but also no. It says you cant force someone to convert to Islam. Yet it ordains fighting Jews and Christians until they are subdued giving jizya.

By the way you do not want to read what Imam Al-Ghazali says about the verse 9:29 that I quoted. I will not post it here unless asked for it, but lets just say it goes along with earlier post about the treatment of jews and christians in the Islamic state.

Are you suggesting their law is based on the Qur'an and Sunnah? These countries (and others) use the word Islamic the same way North Korea uses the word Democratic in its name. Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world that doesn't permit women to drive, I wish they'd explain to other Muslims how this makes sense. If Islamic law was applied in Saudi Arabia, most of their rulers would be trialed for lots of crimes. But most of them are above the law.

Okay we can establish that Saudi Arabia has many Shariah type rulings. Firstly it has the Islamic scholars counsel. 2ndly many Shariah punishments are given. This include stoning, executing witches (yes indeed), cutting the hand of the thief, and sometimes crucifixions. I heard an Imam once say that he wishes that in America we could see heads being chopped off so we would avoid haram.

You say that if there was an Islamic state the rulers would be placed on trial for crimes. This is absolutely false. Show me proof that there is some democratic system of checks and balance on the ruler. You cannot even go on the streets and talk against the ruler. This is from many of the great scholars of Islam such as Imam Nawawi, Ibn hajar, ibn Kathir, as suyuti, and many more. Why? Because these are acts of the khawarij. That is why there have been leaders such as Muawiyah and others. The scholars say you must advise the ruler personally. In other words that means no protest and calling people to fitnah (discord).

Again in the Sahih

Auf ibn Maalik narrated that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said,


“The best of your rulers are those whom you love and they love you. You pray over them and they pray over you. The worst of your rulers are those whom you hate and they hate you. You curse them and they curse you.” They said, “O Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), shall we fight and oppose them over that?” He replied, “No, not as long as they establish the prayer among you. No, not as long as they establish the prayer among you. If someone is appointed over a person and he sees some act of disobedience to Allah from him, he should dislike what he does of disobedience to Allah but he should not remove his hand from obedience.”

There is plenty of scholars of Ahluh Sunnah that I can quote from if you request that from me. As you know the Ulama (scholars) use Qur'an and ahadith as proof.

The second verse is actually from the same Surah that you mentioned that talks about 'beating' women.

Yes I am quite aware of this. None of these verses abrogate the fact that you can hit women. It also doesn't abrogate the many other verses on inequality such as this one

"And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her." (Surah 2:282).

Again the hadith that goes with it confirms it. The Prophet mentions that this is due to the woman's intellect.

However according to Islam, men and women are different. Which is why different rules apply to them. That doesn't mean they aren't equal in front of god, just like you see in the examples that I have given.

So if the man is out of line can the woman also lightly hit the man as the verse I had posted 4:34?

I advice anyone wanting to learn about Islam to read straight from the source and make up your own mind. It's important to learn from scholars if you want to go deeper, but don't let the whole different schools of thought or sects get in the way. In Islam we have the advantage of having the Qur'an. There are no different versions of it, and there's only one language. Use this advantage to learn about Islam, as opposed to believing ever thing they say on the TV.

I think this is the best advice also.

Ong Thung Thunoraya Nama

- - - Updated - - -

I do not want to hijack this thread. So I will not post anything unless you ask for any clarification on anything I said.

Ong Thung Thunoraya Nama

[Heka]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Ok thanks very much everyone.

Now let me recap to see if I'm getting it:

Taqiyyah is denying ones faith in order to avoid persecution, and the earlier/later argument isn't valid because violence is only permitted in certain situations to certain, named, parties....?

also I thought the answers must be in here somewhere, but as much as I would love to, I'm not likely to read every page. So thanks Raphaeline.