Ask a Mormon

[thalassa]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Des, have you seen this?

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/24/church-leadership-post-for-an-openly-gay-mormon/

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Yep...I've been following it with some interest since before it was picked up by the bigger news groups.

First, I have a lot of respect for the guy...he seems to be firmly in the "The Church is true even if people within it make big mistakes" camp. While I personally don't agree with that, he is making it work for him. He is out and honest and that will force a lot of Mormons to possibly re-think their stance on gay people...or maybe not.

This seems more then a little bit of a PR stunt for the Bay Area. Notice how many people they say are attending the SF ward, vs how many are on the books. Notice that they shipped him out of his regular ward to do this (not a standard practice, usually all leadership is from within the ward boundaries). It seems to me as though someone in higher up leadership was looking for a token gay guy to say, "Look! We DO accept everyone!", and try to boost numbers in an area hit HARD by the worst of Prop 8. While he's embracing this as a chance to change things, I worry that he's a pawn. Much in the same way that the church had a group of women they trotted out as the most vocal supporters of stopping the Equal Rights Amendment, telling horror stories about how it would lead to mixed bathrooms, women being forced to work, and women in the military.

While the church is pointing to him being in a leadership position, ward secretaries have zero authority. They track records and keep track of the Bishop's appointments. That's it. He has no say in anything, and I find it interesting that they chose a position for him that is still culturally tantamount to a women's role.

What is going to happen when he wants to have another relationship? According to church policy, he can't go to church and so much as hold hands with another man without being in deep water. Sex would mean excommunication, so he is planning on being celibate for the rest of his life. Or will he try to get legally married, doing everything by the book, and push the issue?

One gay man acting as a secretary does not make up for the thousands pushed out of the LDS church, IMO. Or those driven to suicide. I worry that a lot of Mormons are going to point to this and say, "See? We treat gay people just fine! All the people who leave just aren't willing to follow the commandments", and stop thinking. If he uses the attention to try to stop the suicides, the teenagers kicked out of their homes for coming out, the people shunned by their friends and family, the large numbers of gay and bi men who endanger their lives and the lives of their spouses by getting married then having risky sex in hiding on the side, because they honestly believe being gay is a sin next to murder, then we'll have some progress.

All of that said, he is very brave for being this open about such a touchy issue. I wish I could say he would last ten minutes in Utah.

"Turn It Off" from The Book of Mormon Musical, everyone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8uAYcLYEFI

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Ask a Mormon

My ex-husband was raised in a Mormon family. The only one who kept to the teachings was his sister. He and his brothers all had addiction issues, etc., and left the church. Anyway, I learned a good deal about it at that time, and although I disagreed with it, I respected it until the debacle occured where Mormons were posthumously converting Jews. That just crossed too many lines for my tolerance zone.

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Ah, I remembered that your husband was former LDS, hawkfeathers! If you don't mind me asking, what sort of path is he on now? I find it interesting to see where people end up. There are a lot of atheists, but I also keep running into former members (men in particular) who worship the Norse gods or the Green Man.

If it's not too personal, were the addiction issues in question pornography related? I have some quotes that might interest people on that note.

[Siloh]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Okay, I just want to say thank you for hosting this thread, because I am earnestly fascinated by Mormons (similar to, and in part because of, Trey Parker and Matt Stone d: ). That said...

Can you explain the magic underwear? O.o

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Okay, I just want to say thank you for hosting this thread, because I am earnestly fascinated by Mormons (similar to, and in part because of, Trey Parker and Matt Stone d: ). That said...

Can you explain the magic underwear? O.o

Hey there Siloh, and if I haven't before, welcome!

Full adult members of the LDS Church who are considered worthy are able to attend the temple. Wortheness is determined by an interview with their bishop, including questions about whether the person pays a full 10% tithing, is honest, follows the Word of Wisdom, and meets all sexual/moral guidelines.

Upon initiation to the temple ceremony, a person is given their first pair of garments(the underwear). They can only be purchased from the church, and come in a few slightly different cuts and fabrics. One is not allowed to adjust them in any way, which makes things interesting if one is particularly short, etc.

From the time I was 18 until 2010 I wore them myself, and the basic cut seems to be based on Victorian underwear(bloomer and camisol). In my great-grandparents day, though, they were like long john's, to the wrist and ankle.

[Medusa]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Hey there Siloh, and if I haven't before, welcome!

Full adult members of the LDS Church who are considered worthy are able to attend the temple. Wortheness is determined by an interview with their bishop, including questions about whether the person pays a full 10% tithing, is honest, follows the Word of Wisdom, and meets all sexual/moral guidelines.

Upon initiation to the temple ceremony, a person is given their first pair of garments(the underwear). They can only be purchased from the church, and come in a few slightly different cuts and fabrics. One is not allowed to adjust them in any way, which makes things interesting if one is particularly short, etc.

From the time I was 18 until 2010 I wore them myself, and the basic cut seems to be based on Victorian underwear(bloomer and camisol). In my great-grandparents day, though, they were like long john's, to the wrist and ankle.

Purchased for a nominal fee? Exactly how much does the church charge?

[Siloh]

Re: Ask a Mormon

That actually sounds rather charming so long as it's not too hot out. So, the magical part... Are they just a religious symbol of faith and dedication (not to mention initiation), or are they truly believed to grant invulnerability quite literally for the wearer?

Thanks for the welcome. I feel very welcome. I appreciate your patient and thorough responses. I've seriously been waiting for an LDS missionary to ask 90% of the questions addressed here.

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Purchased for a nominal fee? Exactly how much does the church charge?

It ended up being about $6-8 per set, top and bottom, depending on fabric. That means that starving students like us back in the day usually had to save up for a week's worth for both of us, then wore them until they practically fell apart.

That actually sounds rather charming so long as it's not too hot out. So, the magical part... Are they just a religious symbol of faith and dedication (not to mention initiation), or are they truly believed to grant invulnerability quite literally for the wearer?

Thanks for the welcome. I feel very welcome. I appreciate your patient and thorough responses. I've seriously been waiting for an LDS missionary to ask 90% of the questions addressed here.

They actually were ok enough for winter...however, I'm fairly sure a man designs the women's ones. They are expected to be worn under your bra, which can lead to some interesting slipping issues. Also, trying to navigate little slits in the breasts of maternity tops after opening a nursing bra...good times.

As for your question...I suppose that would depend on who you ask, and how you go about doing it. The initiation involved promises protection, however, since one is sworn to secrecy about the contents of temple ceremonies, any discussion of the contents is usually avoided in order to not sound strange or discuss the sacred. The answer I would have given you while Mormon most likely would have been that they are a symbol of spiritual protection.

In a cultural level, Mormon communities are full of urban legends about people who were in fires, or hit by a car, and the damage only extended to the edge of their garments. You also get urban legends about people finding garments made out of leather where Native Americans used to live.

I'm very glad you feel welcome . Please remember in my thread, too, that while I try to give a well-rounded answer, mine responses are those of a former member who is something of a history geek (including aspects of Mormon history that tend to be passed over in current official texts). Because of that, my answers might be very different from those you'd get from a faithful practicing member.

[Siloh]

Re: Ask a Mormon

I'm very glad you feel welcome . Please remember in my thread, too, that while I try to give a well-rounded answer, mine responses are those of a former member who is something of a history geek (including aspects of Mormon history that tend to be passed over in current official texts). Because of that, my answers might be very different from those you'd get from a faithful practicing member.

That is the sort of source I'm looking to consult. I've been forbidden to invite Mormons into the house, because apparently they won't leave you alone, and my roommates are already being patient with my Jehovah Witness friends coming by to chat and drop off some texts. Besides, I'd like to ask the JWs about the rumors that the higher-ups of the church maybe used to choose children to automatic write, and this is what they had based some information on in the past for Watchtower publications. But... You know, it's not like my friendly neighborhood JWs are going to bat around the idea that their church may have endorsed occultist practices secretly in the past. Similarly, if two young men in immaculate ties riding bicycles showed up here, I wouldn't be like, "I'm so glad you're here! Tell me about your invincible underwear!"

Thanks for your well-rounded answer.

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Hahaha....it's true, they're very hard to get rid of again, unless you make it blatantly obvious you have no plans of converting. Even then...

In all fairness, they're still kids, with an amazing amount of pressure on them to baptize people. The boys are only 19-21, while the girls are 21-22. Because of that, I try my best to be nice to them when they stop by, although for me these days, that usually consists of explaining that I'm a former member, and telling them they are welcome in my home for a cold glass of water or a meal, to use the Internet, or to use my cell phone to call their mom or girlfriend. They just can't proselytize. Secular subjects only.

Since most of those are no-no's, while kind, it actually gets them off my porch rather rapidly. It'll be interesting to see what happens if I ever find a pair who miss home badly enough to take me up on it.

[Siloh]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Hahaha....it's true, they're very hard to get rid of again, unless you make it blatantly obvious you have no plans of converting. Even then...

I'd love to welcome them in to chat, because I just love talking theology with people of true believing faith. I admire it, and I often wish I had it. But I don't. And I was rather distressed thinking of the JWs visiting, because I'll never convert; I just don't have what it takes. And through this inability, I feel that either I will lose my theology buddies or be leading them on. So though I've long hoped to open my door to some Mormon missionaries, I'd feel bad making them think I was interested in a way valuable to their objective. But they're so darn nice-looking! I just love their good will.

---------- Post added at 07:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 PM ----------

Also, Dez, have you seen the Trey Parker movie Orgazmo

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Also, Dez, have you seen the Trey Parker movie Orgazmo

No...that's on the agenda for me eventually. Last vaguely LDS related show I watched was SLC Punk(very good, by the way, if a bit unusual).

I love the soundtrack for Book of Mormon the Musical, though. You're right; the South Park guys are actually pretty darn respectful when it comes to Mormonism. They're actually often kinder then when they handle other faiths. I think it's that they respect that even if things Mormons believe are kind of out-there, the members themselves are almost always genuine and NICE. On BoMM, they also threw in a ton of jokes that you wouldn't get unless you were a member or former member. Lots and lots of little things...it made for a lot of funny points, and quite a few that touched me and my husband, or hit a bit close to home.

[Siloh]

Re: Ask a Mormon

No...that's on the agenda for me eventually. Last vaguely LDS related show I watched was SLC Punk(very good, by the way, if a bit unusual).

SLC Punk is somehow related to Mormonism? I haven't seen it in years.

You're right; the South Park guys are actually pretty darn respectful when it comes to Mormonism. They're actually often kinder then when they handle other faiths. I think it's that they respect that even if things Mormons believe are kind of out-there, the members themselves are almost always genuine and NICE. On BoMM, they also threw in a ton of jokes that you wouldn't get unless you were a member or former member. Lots and lots of little things...it made for a lot of funny points, and quite a few that touched me and my husband, or hit a bit close to home.

That's really fantastic. Yes, relatively speaking, they are quite gentle with Mormonism. Just look at the ways they've handled Scientology and the Catholic church ("Locked in the Closet" and "How to Eat with Your Butt" respectively). Did you see the full "All About Mormons" episode (or, alternatively, the "I learned something today" portion)?

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

SLC Punk is somehow related to Mormonism? I haven't seen it in years.



That's really fantastic. Yes, relatively speaking, they are quite gentle with Mormonism. Just look at the ways they've handled Scientology and the Catholic church ("Locked in the Closet" and "How to Eat with Your Butt" respectively). Did you see the full "All About Mormons" episode (or, alternatively, the "I learned something today" portion)?

SLC Punk has some in-jokes, tied to Mormon influence. They're more the sort of thing you'd get if you were familiar with the SLC area, and I lived just North of there until I was 15 or so.

Would that be the "Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb" episode?