Atheism vs Anti-theism

[Roknrol]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

That's a pretty bold statement. Please read above on my post concerning the First Crusade. I will then point you in the direction of Shintoism and Buddhism in Japan. To my knowledge, no wars have started from either religion, and nobody has killed under the name of those religions.

I wish people would read before they respond. I didn't say anything about war. I said "success", which is something you implied that other atheists based on religion. While I know Atheists that hold this view, it is demonstrably false. Note: Nothing about war or crusades, simply a response to your...response.

Not only that, but selectively picking and choosing what you decide you want to respond to is kind of a crappy thing to do. You made a long post which many of us addressed point by point. Hell, you apparently didn't even bother to read my post - why quote me at all?

[MaskedOne]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism


I am welcoming this thread to time out.

I want second opinions about certain issues and not letting people publicly lose their tempers while I seek second opinions dramatically improves this thread's chance of long term survival.

If all goes well (let's be clear, I'm not promising a thing, merely predicting) then it'll be re-opened inside the 3-16 hours.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Oh, for fuck's sake. Don't people ever learn?


I'm siding with WinterTraditions in this impromptu debate. I take issue with anti-theism, alone. Add Atheists to the mix, that try to disembowel certain theists? That is a sure fire way to light the fuse on *this* tampon.

• Listing grievances as a means to prove the validity of anti-theism.
• Using supposed "facts" to discredit entire belief systems.
• Taking aim at *any* believer, to force-feed them an Atheist reality.
• Forgetting that Mankind created religion, not the other way around.
• Perpetuating hatred, in ANY form.

I start taking it personal when an atheist, small A, suddenly appears to swell up with pride that they found a theist, unto which they can unleash their dismissive condescension (and oft pretentiousness), in my presence.

An example: On facebook, yesterday, my nephew posted an anti-Islam image, or collage tbh, that listed several atrocities committed by certain extremists, as proof of the folly of Islam, and stating it as the entire world's moral imperative - to rid the planet of all Muslims, once and for all. My nephew thinks of himself as a devout Christian.

I take issue with both ideas, there, personally. A devout Christian, he is not. And his attack on Islam, in its entirety, is no different than any racist/white supremacist wanting to rid this country of all the blacks. (Which he also happens to believe would be appropriate, by the way.) First, the basis for his misguided opinion is NOT his religion. He simply USES his religion to back up his claim that Jesus was a blonde, blue-eyed man from Norfolk, or some such idiocy.

So, in that rats' nest, we have atrocities committed by members of one religious sect, being singled out by a member of another religious sect, that is bent on PROVING a religion is horrible, horribly unacceptable to any God-loving person, and anyone with even a modicum of self respect. It's empty, is what it is. It's the same thing I see, day-in and day-out, with certain extremist Athiests - the ones that focus on ANTI- *whatever*, pick-a-belief.

I see that anti-theism as dehumanizing. I see it as just a more sophisticated form of oppression. I see it as perpetuating hate or discord.

I don't really give a thought to *what* a person wants to believe. Outside of this forum, I've been known to single out specific tenets of many major belief systems, as nonsensical. In fact, that's what made me such a free-thinker, an Eclectic, for my entire adult life. Creationism, for instance, I believe there is something diving in that mix, that brought about the evolution of man. Just not quite in the way some stories are told. Others can believe whatever they want. But I take umbrage at any insinuation that belief, alone, is a sign of weakness, of some measure. I get violently opposed to overtones of hate, whether it's religions, skin colors, genders, or favorite pizza toppings. HATE is the problem. Humans nurturing their hatred under the guise of some false idea that facts are all that matter and that history is a completely accurate barometer of religious dogma.

If you remove the humans, and remove their hate, you lose ALL that ground that you try to shove down theist throats, in that anti-theist diatribe.


But no. Instead, people everywhere, pick their favorite religion to throw rocks at. To blame for naught but human actions. Ya know, the old line about who is the bigger fool, the fool or the one that follows him? Who's the bigger idiot? The idiot or the idiot that tries to PROVE how stupid the idiot is? Let that sink in, for a few minutes. People suck. Then they join religious movements. And people still suck. Then they turn tails and blame religion. And people *still* suck. Then they pretend to be all sophisticated, educated, beyond superstition and beyond reproach, they've become intellectuals with higher standards, values and impeccable morals - totally oblivious to the fact that Muslims are the sole reason that the Dark Ages even ended.

Oh. Wait. They haven't. People STILL suck. They still place some superstitious fear on believers, that those believers do not possess. We humans are a fun lot. If we can't find a good reason to hate, we'll make one up!

[ThePaganMafia]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Any belief system empowers people to feel better or more right than others of different viewpoints. It doesnt couple well with the fact that humans are dicks anyways.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Interesting.

People offended by a LIST of ways in which religious people affect even those who want no part of religion (the point of the list, for those who didn't read clear to the end before drawing long knives*).

I should have added:

To believers, religion is too SACRED to bear the same criticisms that every other thing that exists must bear.

That, in and of itself, even if there were no other reasons at all, is enough to make it frightening - to me. My brain refuses to accept the "touch not the godly" limitation.


* Bjorn excepted. We are currently playing with knives, so it's ok

[thalassa]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Interesting.

People offended by a LIST of ways in which religious people affect even those who want no part of religion (the point of the list, for those who didn't read clear to the end before drawing long knives*).

I should have added:

To believers, religion is too SACRED to bear the same criticisms that every other thing that exists must bear.

That, in and of itself, even if there were no other reasons at all, is enough to make it frightening - to me. My brain refuses to accept the "touch not the godly" limitation.

Problem with the list is that "religious people" aren't a monolith. Lumping every single religion and every single religious person into a list of things which some religions have done (but may not do anymore) is problematic because it is inaccurate, its stereotyping, and honestly, its guilty of the same sort of bias that some theists levy towards atheists. Blaming religion as the origin of all ills, as if people would not do what people do, without the existence of religion is either willful ignorance or deliberate disingenuity...just as much as saying "religion is wonderful and the origin of good" would be--which, I might add, is not something ANYONE here has said.

Religion (including the lack of it) is an excuse--one more, lousy excuse that people use to point fingers and other one another...if its not a matter of religion, its political philosophy, philosopy philosophy, gender (and gender bias, which is reinforced by certain religions, didn't necessairly start with them), skin color, ethnicity, weight, clothing preference, etc. Religion is a tool--just as much as a screwdriver or a pencil or a rifle...in the hands of a decent person capable of compassion and reason, it can be wielded with some skill as an incredible instrument for good. The problem isn't religion---its the dearth of decent people capable of both compassion and reason. And religious people--theists--don't hold the patent on that problem.

I'm all for being critical. But criticism is generally useful when its constructive, rather than destructive. Pick a religion (and make a specific religion, not "Christians" or "Muslims" or "Baptists" or "Buddhists" unless its actually a belief or action that actually exists among nearly all of their respective groups) and say "this teaching sucks because of X, Y, and Z" or "this action damages X, Y, and Z". At best, a blanket statement is almost never helpful, and even even less often factual...at worst, it comes off as prejudice and bigotry, whether its meant that way or not. Honestly...I expect better of us...because I know that most of us are capable of it.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Problem with the list is that "religious people" aren't a monolith. Lumping every single religion and every single religious person into a list of things which some religions have done (but may not do anymore) is problematic because it is inaccurate, its stereotyping, and honestly, its guilty of the same sort of bias that some theists levy towards atheists. Blaming religion as the origin of all ills, as if people would not do what people do, without the existence of religion is either willful ignorance or deliberate disingenuity...just as much as saying "religion is wonderful and the origin of good" would be--which, I might add, is not something ANYONE here has said.

That is a bit unfair.

To say "this has been an effect of religion" is not the same as saying "every person who has a religion has done this," although I will admit that the misrepresentation is easier to respond to than the actual idea expressed. I fully understand the difference between individuals and averages.

If I say "raccoons carry rabies" I haven't said "all raccoons carry rabies," nor have I blamed raccoons for being subject to rabies.

I've simply stated a fact.

Facts are either right or wrong, but never PC or not PC.

[thalassa]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

I fully understand the difference between individuals and averages.

I know that...But that assumes that everyone can and will read it as such...that everyone has the linguistic skill, maturity, comprehension level, and life experience to do so. We all have the tendency to forget that not everyone is on the same playing field in these things.

I know I used your post as an example up there, but the comment itself really was meant as a reminder to everyone, not just to single you out (I should know better than to post on stuff like this at work, because I tend to be too short) and I apologize since looking back, that is how it read.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

I know that...But that assumes that everyone can and will read it as such...that everyone has the linguistic skill, maturity, comprehension level, and life experience to do so. We all have the tendency to forget that not everyone is on the same playing field in these things.

Let's teach that then

[ChainLightning]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

People offended by a LIST of ways in which religious people affect even those who want no part of religion.

And yet, one expects those that want no part of religion, the exception of credulity?

Don't misunderstand me. I know religions have had more than their fair share of negative impacts on others. Atheists don't usually make that same mistake. Anti-theists, however, very frequently do. The real culprit, here, is still not religion but people. You want no part of religion? You have to avoid people. Religions won't chase you down and push dogma under your wheels. People will and do. So, this anti-theist crap, taking potshots at belief systems, is way off the mark.

Way.

I should have added:

To believers, religion is too SACRED to bear the same criticisms that every other thing that exists must bear.

That, in and of itself, even if there were no other reasons at all, is enough to make it frightening - to me. My brain refuses to accept the "touch not the godly" limitation.

And to non-believers, those that believe are relegated to the "begging for a reality check" or "worthy of abuse" category? No.

Criticism comes in many, many flavors. From the gentle, guiding hands that correct one's errors to flat-out derision.

Anything worth a thought is worth analysis. But being anti-religion is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for denigrating faith. Particularly when it's people that have ruined the perceptions of religious beliefs, by manipulation or otherwise nefarious personal agendas, or whatnot. That's not religion, at fault, there. That's human's de rigueur, in their purest form. Seriously. It's pot-kettle. Since humans are so often hideously atrocious to one another, we can be hideously atrocious to others? No. But it's human nature! How can we mere meatsacks ever hope to understand one another, when we're so busy sizing up the opposition, instead? Pointing out the flaws in everyone else and their beliefs?

That is completely outside the realm of religious versus sacrilegious. Instead, it is firmly planted, right in the lap of every single "civilized" being. It's an overblown sense of self, to the detriment of others, that likely have an overblown sense of self, themselves. And you blame religion for that??

People do not have a common ground, at all, except in their vast array of omnipresent vices and shortcomings. The folly of man: they believe they have none.

[Bjorn]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Ok, I'm kind of upset that in our small corner of this site where atheists can discuss their thoughts, we're being told not to.

That, in fact, makes me very angry and hurt. We don't comment on theist threads because it's not helpful but if this is the type of treatment I can expect whenI'm trying to talk to fellow atheists on our own spot, I am left with the conclusion that we are simply not welcome here.

And if such is the case, I will adjust my bookmarks accordingly.

[Denarius]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Ok, I'm kind of upset that in our small corner of this site where atheists can discuss their thoughts, we're being told not to.

That's a bit unfair. We're not being told not to express ourselves, we're having a discussion. Maybe a bit more heated than is strictly necessary, but no one is shutting the other down.

Unchallenging flawed logic inevitably results in misinformation, which is helpful to no one. If it's a belief worth having, then it's a belief that can hold up to scrutiny. That right there is one of the main reasons that I AM an atheist. Because I believe that nothing is above scrutiny.

There's always the SAFE zone for sharing your thoughts. Otherwise expect criticism when warranted, I'd expect nothing less.

Edit: Plus, we're still subject to forum rules and guidelines.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Atheists don't usually make that same mistake. Anti-theists, however, very frequently do. ....

...And to non-believers, those that believe are relegated to the "begging for a reality check" or "worthy of abuse" category? No.

When I make those errors, I'll appreciate them being pointed out. Those are things I may do inadvertently, and would like to correct if I do.

Until them...

[Gleb]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Before I ask my question, this little intro is necessary: I don't want to hurt anybody here in this section, but I want to understand something.

Ok, so an atheist is a person that doesn't believe in any god or deity - ok, no problem. But what is exactly is the purpose of anti-theists?
In every group of people (except PF of course), there are good and bad people. Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and Pagans. It's a matter of case, to whom we speak.
Some will appear normal and capable of having a polite discussion. Others will try to convert people and say things like "you will burn in hell".

So basically, atheists (or even anti theists, to be correct), who really disagree with religious people actually disagree with this group of people that tries to convert and influence, right?

Again, no offense meant here.

[Bjorn]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

That's a bit unfair. We're not being told not to express ourselves, we're having a discussion. Maybe a bit more heated than is strictly necessary, but no one is shutting the other down.

Unchallenging flawed logic inevitably results in misinformation, which is helpful to no one. If it's a belief worth having, then it's a belief that can hold up to scrutiny. That right there is one of the main reasons that I AM an atheist. Because I believe that nothing is above scrutiny.

This isn't about scrutiny, I'm fine with that. THIS felt like "don't step on any toes and make sure to be 100% PC so that no one gets offended."

Facts are facts, and the thread getting shut down and scolded for a list of facts is unacceptable in my eyes.

If I'm the only one who feels this way, like I said, I'll politely escort myself out.