Ask a Pro Life Pagan

[Juniper]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading this thread thus far. There is a lot of very good, well constructed and eye opening information in the responses from both sides. Please do keep up the great and civilized Q's and A's. (This is not a mod note in anyway. Just my personal observation.)
I'm in the process of construction a couple of questions of my own, until then... carry on.

[Medusa]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

It's OK - you're confused because you have a picture of what a Pro Life person is like in your head, and I'm not matching it. Since clearing up misconceptions is the whole point of an "Ask me..." thread, I'm happy to do it. Here's the short version:

1. I do not like abortion, This is a gut level reaction and is not going to change, no matter what argument is presented to me. Sorry - you have your feelings, I have mine. I don't know why a person would LIKE abortion, but if somebody does, -

2. If I could REASONABLY end it right now, I would. I don't know why this would be a problem for anybody - if it wasn't necessary, there would be no reason why it would continue...

3. I can not reasonably end it by making laws against it, or restricting access. Therefore, it should remain legal (with whatever reasonable restrictions we, as a society, decide to put on it - like determining a point AFTER which elective abortions are no longer an option).

4. Although I know that abortion will always be necessary, I would like to see the number of them decrease dramatically - because options are in place which make the choice easier - like health care and a stable environment - not because of weird restrictions and backdoor politics.

5. I feel that as long as abortion is presented as THE option for social ills there is little incentive to create the kind of programs which will bring real, lasting improvements. This is why I choose to concentrate on reducing the number of abortions through social improvement, rather than by laws.

I don't see the problem - it looks like a win/win scenario to me.

Hmm. I agree with everything you had to say here. I get what you are saying.

I have a problem with the idea of the question: Well when is a fetus a human?, etc etc. Why? Because let's say for arguments sake a few things:
A fetus is a human being at the time of conception.
A human being has the right to live.
Well that means someone outside of the human being's host surroundings (that of ANOTHER human being) wants to make decisions on behalf of the fetus human being. Wanting to make sure no one interferes with the rights of the fetus human being....

Even if that means FORCING another human being to give up their rights.

Some kind of screwy math there.

So the Pro lifer screams: EVERY HUMAN BEING HAS A RIGHT TO THEIR OWN LIFE!

and in tiny print: but not you who has to carry that life. You are screwed. And are now an unwilling incubator. YOU have no rights.

[Raphaeline]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

I understand what you're saying, Corbin - at least I think I do. Would it be correct to say that although you loathe abortion and would prefer to see it abolished, you agree that it can sometimes be a necessary procedure under certain circumstances and after other options have been exhausted?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

I understand what you're saying, Corbin - at least I think I do. Would it be correct to say that although you loathe abortion and would prefer to see it abolished, you agree that it can sometimes be a necessary procedure under certain circumstances and after other options have been exhausted?

That would be exactly correct, Raphaeline.

I do want to emphasise that "it can sometimes be necessary" means that the choice is up to the mother & those closely concerned (if any).

[Raphaeline]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

Gotcha. Thanks for your patience with me

[Medusa]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

That would be exactly correct, Raphaeline.

I do want to emphasise that "it can sometimes be necessary" means that the choice is up to the mother & those closely concerned (if any).

I will lay my left hand out to be chopped off by the karma gods...but I am almost certain every.single.woman. who has ever thought about or had an abortion thinks this very way. We don't think it's an easy trip to the salon.

[Jembru]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

I will lay my left hand out to be chopped off by the karma gods...but I am almost certain every.single.woman. who has ever thought about or had an abortion thinks this very way. We don't think it's an easy trip to the salon.

THANK YOU. This is exactly why I don't understand why Corbin considers his stance pro-life, when most sensible human beings feel the same way. However, I guessed from his reply, that he either misunderstood my question, or assumed I was trolling. In my experience, once someone has decided my opinions for me, no amount of negotiation can change their mind, so I tiptoed quietly away.

[Siloh]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

THANK YOU. This is exactly why I don't understand why Corbin considers his stance pro-life, when most sensible human beings feel the same way. However, I guessed from his reply, that he either misunderstood my question, or assumed I was trolling. In my experience, once someone has decided my opinions for me, no amount of negotiation can change their mind, so I tiptoed quietly away.

I've been thinking about this nominal issue for a while, why we even have these terms when they only seem useful in separating the "God hates baby killers" and the 15-year-old walking into the clinic. But if it were not for these terms, understanding politicians' general opinions would be a whole lot harder. That's the best function I can theorize.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

Gotcha. Thanks for your patience with me

LOL - I don't believe I've ever had to use patience in a conversation with you, Raphaeline. Thank you for your patience with me!

---------- Post added at 08:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 AM ----------

?..However, I guessed from his reply, that he either misunderstood my question, or assumed I was trolling. In my experience, once someone has decided my opinions for me, no amount of negotiation can change their mind, so I tiptoed quietly away.

Sometimes, Jembru, when a person has misunderstood you, all it means is that you have been misunderstood.

This is exactly why I don't understand why Corbin considers his stance pro-life, when most sensible human beings feel the same way.

Here is the answer, as clear as I can make it -

If you look at the end result, my position, and the position of some people who refer to themselves as pro choice look the same. The difference is not in the end. The difference is in the beginning - it's a conceptual difference. The following is a description of this conceptual difference:

Pro Choice - emphasis on the word "choice." This group is focused on keeping the "choice" of abortion open. While I do agree that the option needs to remain open, keeping it open is not where I put my time and energy.

Pro Life - emphasis on the word "life." This group would like to see human fetuses carried to full term. This is what I want, and it is where I put my time and energy.

I am definitely Pro Life. Somebody could argue, I suppose, that I am also pro choice by default, but I would never self-identify as that because it isn't my focus at all.

[thalassa]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

I have a friend, that in the midst of a pro-choice/pro-life debate (where both parties were actually quite similar in their beliefs, although the person they were debating with *was* in favor of outlawing abortion) made the statement "I contend that we are both for life...the difference is in the life we are for, first."

I think (without trying to put words in your mouth, Corbin...or commandeer your thread, its just something that I was reminded of reading this) that this a nuance most people, on both sides of the media-hyped divide aren't really aware of, and don't think about, when they think of the label. And, to some extent, its still an imperfect statement...but I think it describes more people than not.

Quite simply (at least, I think so...I could be wrong), if you don't think of a fetus as a person (and I don't) you will (more than likely) unilaterally put the needs (medical, emotional and otherwise) of the mother first...while if you do think of a fetus as a person, you would (I assume and welcome corrections here) think that any and all measures should be taken to preserve that life---but reasonable members of both groups would rather see prevention of unwanted pregnancies and support so that individuals that might choose otherwise would keep a child they might feel pressured to abort for economic reasons. Unfortunately, the same people that loudly proclaim the "pro-life" stance are also (in this country) the people that seemingly don't uphold such ideals outside the issue of abortion...and its become a big political mess.


</end foot in mouth>

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

Thalassa, thanks. Yes, I think that that is exactly right.

The two "pro" stances have become media caricatures, which has caused them to polarize beyond repair. The two sides have become as entenched and immovable as WWI battle lines. They are largely fighting a propaganda war in the hopes of swinging a decisive victory, but the number of people nationwide who identify as either pro life or pro choice are so evenly matched (last check: 52% pro choice, 48% pro life) that there is no hope of a clear mandate going to either side.

It seems to me that - if I were to offer a tentative solution - the compromise position I am suggesting should appeal to pro choice people and also to a percentage of people currently identifying as pro life, but uncomfortable with the kind of bedfellows they are forced to hang with.

Reasonable/realistic/rational abortion reduction looks like the best chance for settling this issue as much as it will ever be settled...

Which is unfortunate.


And yes, the stuffed shirts talking publicly, taking rigid, inflexible pro life are largely shits. I suspect that a lot of folks would desert them if those folks were offered an alternative and reasonable third choice. "Pro choice" won't work for them for the same reason as it doesn't work for me.

On the other hand, people who are pro choice are often equally unreasonable in listening to the concerns of those who are pro life, and seem to prefer an aggressive campaign to silence that side.

Both sides are being foolish.

[anunitu]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

I think that perhaps one big problem with pro-life,pro-choice issues is it has become more about political one upsmenship than about the real discussion of the primary issue. Without the political "Use" of this issue,it might be discussed in more rational terms.

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

...about controlling people in the larger voting arena via fear, too...let's not forget that one.

[shadow1982]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

I have a question but it is not really about the issue itself so Corbin please feel free to tell me to mind my own.

I have known for a while, from other conversations that you are Pro-life and also that you are hesitant to discuss it because of how heated it can get. Can I ask what prompted you to start this thread?

I for one am glad you did as it has opened my eyes to the other side of the issue and made me re-evaluate my own stance on the issue. And it is possible I have just answered my own question?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

I have a question but it is not really about the issue itself so Corbin please feel free to tell me to mind my own.

I have known for a while, from other conversations that you are Pro-life and also that you are hesitant to discuss it because of how heated it can get. Can I ask what prompted you to start this thread?

I for one am glad you did as it has opened my eyes to the other side of the issue and made me re-evaluate my own stance on the issue. And it is possible I have just answered my own question?

You did, sort of, answer your own question. I'm not really trying to get anybody to rethink their position, although if someone does, I'd call that a good thing (even if one still ends up disagreeing). What I really wanted to get across is that the Pro Life position isn't really the single stance that it is frequently imagined to be.

My position is pretty close to a lot of Pro Choice positions. Between my position and that extreme right position there are an infinite number of possible positions. Many of those positions allow for meaningful compromises, and so it is important to keep the lines of dialogue open. If lines of communication are closed, then there is no chance for a meaniful compromise, but a huge chance for a fight.

I am a lot more conservative than most people here - real conservative, not the bullshit that is pawned off as conservative these days.

Since I've been here (on Pagan Forum), my thinking has changed a lot. I'm still pretty conservative, but I have a.better picture of things than I once did, and I see that I was off on some things, and I am glad to have had my experience widened. This is what happens when people get together, become friends, and talk.

I'd like everybody to have that same kind of experience, and widen their horizons. But it can't happen if people aren't able to get past their initial prejudices and come to some kind of terms of mutual respect.

I think that with this thread we have proved that a meaningful dialogue can occur between two positions which present the illusion of being mutually exclusive. If we can do it here, we ought to be able to do it in other places as well.

And that would be very, very good.

We can not allow ourselves to be used as pawns in battles for political power. We're all better than that.