Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

[Denarius]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Those are potential consequences. Your personal reasons are a tad strange, though you are entitled to being strange.

The thing of it is, if gods and spirits exist... then they are mundane things. Either they are a part of this world, or they are not, and if they are not a part of this world then they don't exist in any practical sense. If they do exist outside of the physical world, where we exist, then they are essentially irrelevent.

If you mean mundane as in not speshul, then by that logic all underwear should be free because a certain kind of undergarment is considred sacred by the mormons. Which, I might add, I could buy right now for about twenty bucks.

Also, the loincloth Jesus wore is considered a holy relic so if he did make furnature it most definately WOULD be cosidered a holy relic. At least by the Catholic church, which was relic crazy during a large portion of it's history.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

My personal spiritual reasons are I believe some thiings are above the mundane and to try and make a living off them belittles those things, everyone who dedicates themselves to them and all the people who benefit from them.

You know, at long last I think I'm beginning to see why we're arguing about this. It's the concept of making a living, isn't it? What I do isn't ALL about making a living. But I do have to cover costs. And I do have to cover at least some of my time.

There is a huge difference between profiteering and making a living or covering costs. And there is a huge difference between giving good value for money and ripping people off.

Now, like you (I assume) I am against profiteering. And I am dead against ripping people off. And as I've mentioned before, I don't think that money is the only charge that is demanded (in some instances).

But I don't believe that money is a pollution either. It's a bit of a weird concept to me, that a piece of paper can have value, but there you go, that's how our society works. And until I find something better - which will accept me anyway - I am stuck with it.

The translation of Irish literature site that you posted a link for was fascinating. Well done for being part of it. (I did something similar working on papyrii when my sight allowed) But even the Irish site could not be set up without money somewhere along the line. Materials must be purchased, websites paid for... and donations raised.

I have no problem with that. As for money creating the circumstances for charlatans to operate - I agree with you there, too. And charlatans should be subjected to the full force of the law when this happens. But where I think we differ James is that you appear to be suggesting (please correct me if I'm wrong) that anyone who accepts money for what they do - even a modest amount - must therefore be a charlatan. And that, IMHO is simply not true.

[Ophidia]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

But I don't believe that money is a pollution either. It's a bit of a weird concept to me, that a piece of paper can have value, but there you go, that's how our society works. And until I find something better - which will accept me anyway - I am stuck with it.

This is also kind of what I'm talking about but didn't have a decent way to fully express til now

If a person pays for something, that thing will have an intrinsic value that is usually above the same item obtained for free.

I can pick up furniture from the sidewalk on garbage day almost anywhere. It's thrown-away furniture, though. It no longer holds value to the people who own it, and I'm just like, "Score! Free tv!" But if that tv breaks or I find a slightly better tv, I'm putting it back out on the curb without much of a thought. I've sacrificed nothing for it, it has no intrinsic value to me, and it's easy for me to abandon. I'm not going to spend time, money or energy on fixing it when it breaks. I bought a kitchen dining set one time. Nice little table, four chairs. It was the first piece of furniture I ever bought with my own money. I loved it. We decided to move to another state, and had worked out an arrangement with the in-laws that we would go up first with our most personal belongings and find an apartment, and the inlaws would then bring the bigger furniture. Well, as a 'surprise', they threw out all the furniture we owned & bought new stuff, so we'd have a 'fresh' start. I'm still pissed at the mother-in-law for throwing away my dining set. I hated the new table & chairs she had bought, and there's a part of me that will never get over the outrage. Yes, the inlaws were just trying to be nice, most of our stuff was found on a sidewalk & trash, but it didn't matter - I had bought that kitchen table. It had real value to me. It wouldn't have mattered if I had bought that table using chickens or favors or cold hard coin of the realm, my sacrifice of time and energy went into it.

Granted, not everyone sees goods and services that way. I know a lot of people who seemingly throw money away - every six months, they gotta have that new phone. Every five years, the inlaws buy a brand new car, even if the one they had was still running in mint condition. But most people I know place a value on their money and the items they purchase with it. Anyone can hand out free advice, anyone can throw away items of value - but if you're giving something up to obtain something else, that item usually becomes a little more 'special' than when you pick it up on the sidewalk on garbage day.

[JamesByrne]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

But where I think we differ James is that you appear to be suggesting (please correct me if I'm wrong) that anyone who accepts money for what they do - even a modest amount - must therefore be a charlatan. And that, IMHO is simply not true.

I wouldnt have said someone is a charlatan if they accept [payment for] spiritual instruction/initiation Itd be very offensive. Im sorry if I implied that I didnt mean to Tylluan.

I wouldnt have an issue with someone accepting money for instruction (workshops are a seperate thing altogether I mean long term spiritual instruction), I think genuine honourariums are an amazing show of appreciation done properly and in the right context. Id only have an issue where someone demands money.

Its down to 'sacredness' and 'sanctity'. Spirituality is not a physical tangable product so its value is not immidiately visible like a gold ring say. Since people value it regardless of that its worth has to be coming from somewhere else. For example why is a sacred site sacred? Why not put a starbucks on it if people are going by there regularly and could use a tasty beverage...? Its a prime piece of real estate for a business like that. Youd probably get good money for it. Most sacred sites are just grass, hills and sheep with the odd few boulders. Its spare land, waste ground. Who wouldnt take the chance to make something of it?

Only the person who sees another value beyond the material worth in the sacred site.

Really Id consider sacredness a huge part of spirituality, if someone has no concept of the sacred and is giving spiritual instruction to people what are they really doing? The essential componant of worth in spirituality is gone the only product they can sell to people is themselves. I dont think Im wrong in saying that people who do tend to make a go of spiritual instruction as a career tend to be big personalities with big egos. Its all them.

[Denarius]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

You are asigning value to the spiritual JUST as much as a person selling instruction. To you it is valuable because you crafted it yourself, or because of your personal connection to it, or whatever. Basically sentimental value.

The problem here is that teachign someone about paganism is NOT anything like selling a gold ring. For one thing when you teach another about your beliefs and about history, and about whatever you lose nothing other than time.

When you sell a ring you lose the ring.

Would you look a teacher in the eye and say they shouldn't get paid for teaching math, science, music, or health because a set value cannot properly be put on nonphysical commodities? Keep in mind that a lot of teachers are incredibly uderpaid and overworked!

Whether or not something has a set or easily deduced value is irrlevent, what matters is whether the parties involved can reach a comprimise. I should point out that the value of a gold ring isn't set in stone either, I don't care for jewelry or gold so I wouldn't value the gold higher than what I could easilly get for it and wouldn't buy one for myself.

Hell, if I needed the money I'd sell it for twenty bucks or less and someone would take me up on that!

Also, a sacred grove would not be prime real estate. For one it probably wouldn't be anywhere near a population center, and wouldn't likely be flat ground with little to no natural features. In other words a plot of land, a flat square... In the middle of a city.

People buy and sell sacred things all the time. Heck, gods do it too!

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I dont think Im wrong in saying that people who do tend to make a go of spiritual instruction as a career tend to be big personalities with big egos. Its all them.

I think this is a point I actually raised a couple of posts (pages? ) back... it's a question of balance. People who give nothing away are quite a different kettle of fish from those who charge for some things only. With the former, then as you say, it becomes all about them. (At least, that's how I'm reading it.)

Ego is a strange beast. Its lack is as dangerous as its surfeit.

[Ula]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

To me I don't see a difference between charging to teach, do readings, reiki or owning a shop. They all involve providing a service and getting paid or it. As long as the person isn't stealing, coercing or making false promises I have no issue with buying merchandise or taking a class from someone who knows more than myself.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I think it's okay to teach and I think it's okay to learn. I think it's okay to charge for being taught and to pay for that learning.

Right and wrong have no bearing on my opinion, nor does my opinion rely on either principle. Paganism, in it's many, many flavors, can get very, very specific. If people are willing to pay to find out those details? Great! If someone wants a little compensation for teaching what they know? Great!***

The flip-side of that coin is, of course, if people don't want to pay? They aren't likely to. If the teacher, in this generalization, doesn't wanna charge? They're not likely to accept payment.

Both sides of that coin have both parties happily going about their lives, doing what they feel is appropriate. Perfect!






***This all is not to be confused with generously helping out the less fortunate, purposefully milking the neighbor's cow or even mindlessly following some social routine.

[Zathera]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

It depends on a few factors really.
Is the teacher really anymore qualified than the students?
Resources used : I.E time
The topic.

There are certain things that I don't think should ever be charged for - basic knowledge being amongst them. Teaching basic theology and various Pagan paths I don't personally feel should be charged for. This stems largely from the fact that knowledge should truly be free.
However more complex affairs, such as one-to-one tuition on topics of magick, whether it be practical usage or otherwise, I feel should again not be *charged* but have a donation system in place.
Religion is for all, and if its to be for all then it must remain free to remain accessible. That's my opinion anyway.

[Anaconda]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Is it right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Sure. Are you providing a service? Yes, you are. Does providing a service entitle you to a fair compensation for your time and effort? Yes, it does. Should the service provided be of the utmost quality and efficiency in being given? Absolutely. Should compensation be denied if the service rendered was of poorer quality than advertised? You betcha.

Now, compensation doesn't mean money. It can be a variety of other things, though currency is often the go-to means of compensation for a service that both parties agree to. I'm of the notion that if the greater neo-pagan community wants better infrastructure, better lodgings, better service, and better quality control then we need to vote with our wallets and our feet. You think someone's service is garbage? Don't buy it. Think someone's service is fantastic? Compensate them well for their time, since they are under NO obligation to give good service if they aren't being compensated well for what they are providing for the community they are a part of. It's just good business sense.

[kijani]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I'm always a little worried about places that charge, especially because there are so many branches under the umbrella term of paganism, and you can never really be certain who you're dealing with, especially through the internet, so I wouldn't trust any place that really charges for something like that.

[Celtic Tiger]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I'm always a little worried about places that charge, especially because there are so many branches under the umbrella term of paganism, and you can never really be certain who you're dealing with, especially through the internet, so I wouldn't trust any place that really charges for something like that.

It's a weird balance. I teach kendo, and when I tried to get people to come for free, I couldn't get more than one or two students. When I started charging a monthly rate, my class size grew to eight.

In any case, I do see where you're coming from.

[Pellethie]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

In my opinion it should be an obligation.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

IF the person has actual knowledge of the subject (rather then just calling them self the Grand High Poobah of Water Buffaloes) then yes, charging is not only fine, it necessary. That person is taking time out of their day to teach YOU. Time they could be working a mundane job to make money so that they can pay the bills, feed themselves and their animals and so on.

What boggles me is this idea that pagans should just give away their time, energy and skills. Imagine how that suggestion would go over if you had a plumber come out to deal with your backed up sink.

While there are plenty of scam artists out there, I don't think the answer is to demonize those that charge for a service and teaching anything IS a service. So is officiating at a handfasting. Or ministering to prisoners.

Now keep in mind that money isn't the only way to be paid for services rendered. There is barter as well (a friend of mine officiated at handfasting and was given new robes in trade) but in this society, barter-able skills and goods are few and far between. So money is used instead. Money isn't evil, it's not tainted, it's just how our economic system works. And until I don't have to pay bills or buy food, I'm going to expect to be paid for my time, effort and skills, not matter if it's my 9-5 job or something to do with paganism.

[Shahaku]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Saying knowledgeable pagan teachers shouldn't charge because "too" many of them are scams is like saying no online college should charge because "too" many of them are scams. It's not fair to the accredited, hard-working schools. If you fall for a scam, that's your own fault. Learn from it and research into the organization a little more next time.