Unverified Personal Gnosis

[anunitu]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Now I know what MSU or MUS means...I feel so educated now...tosses cap in air.....

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Why do we act like the 'mystical' or the 'inner stuff' is so special over the physical? I mean our insides produce this 'mystical' gas. Then it comes outside and we find out it's just a fart.

I ain't even being flippant. That's how I personally feel about the importance of this mystical label we can only find inside of ourselves. As if we could never be 'gasp' wrong about what we are perceiving.
*this is the tldr version of making bad perception calls as mentioned earlier. Sorry I don't have special letters to add to make me fit in. But here you go: I feel the mbs is pretty much full of pbs. And my fa is just wtsoit.

I won't even go to the flat earth comparison. Let's go somewhere closer. Remember Thalidomide? (wow. Spelled it without spellcheck too!)

Perhaps just me and the people I tend to associate with but the mystical is not more special it's simply the fact the mystical or inner can not be quantified or observed. Myself I tend to equate it like a guided meditation. Once guided you'll end up in a place or experience that is basically a manifestation of what the person guiding you has implanted or suggested. Yet go into a meditation without any guidance by allowing the spirits, gods & goddesses, etc doing the guiding and who knows where you'll end up or what you'll experience. Especially in the context that symbology, language, entities, etc being encountered are more often using your own subconscious landscape.

From a shamanic aspect we tend not to do things that same way in regards to where we go and what we experience. There is very little common structure of what we will experience in journey work. Yet say from a Hellene perspective there can be a lot of similarity in meditation or dream work because we build our mindscape with the same legends, beliefs, divinities, etc. One reason I think recon's tend to try so hard to validate and confirm the things we're applying to the construction of that mindscape and what we will encounter upon it.

I suppose, for me anyway, as a shamanic type practitioner I know the landscape is in constant movement and what I shall encounter may change each time. Yet I use my religious trappings to try and stabilize it somewhat.

Oh well maybe none of this makes sense or matters other than it's how I view things and those close to me tend to work as well.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Corbin, if you ever get the chance to pick up a copy (or if I find a second copy used again because the original isn't cheap), I really recommend this book. Its basically an anthropological, archaeological, ecological and evolutionary study of how we went from the second to the first in some cultures, and didn't in others.

I will! It looks interesting, and (oddly for a book dealing with religion) it got no fewer than 3 stars...

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Added:

I'm curious. Did the author look at Alchemy?

To me, it looks like Alchemy is the "missing link" connecting theological speculation with experimental science, through the Middle East and into Europe.

If the author didn't, he may have missed something important - but it would be understandable... Alchemy had, for a very long time, been left to molder in a dingy, neglected cellar of history.

[thalassa]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Added:

I'm curious. Did the author look at Alchemy?

To me, it looks like Alchemy is the "missing link" connecting theological speculation with experimental science, through the Middle East and into Europe.

If the author didn't, he may have missed something important - but it would be understandable... Alchemy had, for a very long time, been left to molder in a dingy, neglected cellar of history.

I'll have to re-read...last time I re-read it, it was mainly for the first section. I don't distinctly remember him making it that far into history. The book doesn't go too far past the early conversion days of Christianity.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

I find the discussion interesting but I am amazed that there is disagreement on the value of gnosticism whether it is somehow verified or not. Gnosis is by definition an individual knowledge imparted to a single person. When I teach students to introduce themselves to the quarter Guardians they are give the "public" names and genders of these spirits. They are encouraged to get private information that is a personal connection between the Guardian and that one student. It might be a sigil, a name or a gender that differs from the public information. That is a personal gift and exchange between the individual and the spirit. When they call to the Guardian they are expected to use that information while the group calls out the public name. The information is not shared with any other person.
I suppose it is, for me, an accepted practice because spirits can be male and/or female or neither all at the same time. They are not confined to the same kind of existence as we humans.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

I find the discussion interesting but I am amazed that there is disagreement on the value of gnosticism whether it is somehow verified or not.

Because pretty much everybody knows how much BS is floating around, and in the "occult" or "religion" there is more BS than average.

Folks are looking for the means to separate the BS from the wholesome stuff. I suggest utility as the means, others prefer archeological or textual references.

But the goal is the same...

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Well, what one person has experienced as "truth" will always seem like BS to someone else.
I admit there is a lot of misinformation but that is true of every topic, especially religions.
If something works for one individual then it is "truth" for them, while it may not work for another person and is BS for them. There are very few "universal" truths outside of mathematics.

[Medusa]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Well, what one person has experienced as "truth" will always seem like BS to someone else.
I admit there is a lot of misinformation but that is true of every topic, especially religions.
If something works for one individual then it is "truth" for them, while it may not work for another person and is BS for them. There are very few "universal" truths outside of mathematics.

I agree. Except when on a norm those 'truths' of one demand everyone else believe them. This just isn't about Christians either. People across the board (including us atheists) can't always handle a 'truth' when it's being pushed on us as our 'truth'. And those truthers get testy when their truth gets called on. If those truth people want to have everyone believe in their truth, they better have something more than their 'mystical insides' as proof. That's how you get a paddlin.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Well, what one person has experienced as "truth" will always seem like BS to someone else.
I admit there is a lot of misinformation but that is true of every topic, especially religions.
If something works for one individual then it is "truth" for them, while it may not work for another person and is BS for them. There are very few "universal" truths outside of mathematics.

In which case you are using "it works for them" as your verification.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

"My verification" is not a term I use outside of personally.
Over the last 45 years of being an active pagan (teaching, learning, and participating in pagan organizations) I have learned from some of "the best" pagans I have ever met. ( a personal point of view)
I know what works for me and I have learned some of the things that limit results magikally.
I have met others who use different ways but it works for them and some who are well respected that don't seem to be able to keep their life together at all. I have seen interfaith bigotry and prejudice and lived through the "witch wars" of the 1970s. These things begin with dogmatic differences and the evolution of paths.

I am, in no way, able to "verify" another persons techniques or successes at any level. There are some signs to watch for to safely avoid those who are predatory or "out to make a profit" from undereducated people but as long as a person is happy and healthy in their personal and religious activities I can accept them as they are.

I agree when someone attempts to push a belief on another they need to have evidence of its value. I may come across as being authoritative and "pushy" but I assure you that is never my intent. I am not used to being challenged, let's face it I have been teaching for a long time and learning for a good deal longer. I have been recognized in the community as an elder and respected by other elders. The worst thing I was ever accused of was trying to bring people of different traditions together and to some that was punishable by eternity in "hell".

If I sound pushy or authoritative I would appreciate if you point it out to me. I will try to get my point across while at the same time recognizing the value of others points as well.

I suppose I acknowledge what works for another person as "validation" for them but that doesn't mean that i am going to run out and try it in my ritual or write a spell using it as my template.
The thing that I recognize is that a persons belief or faith in their work is what makes it work. Unless I believe it will work for me it is less than useless for me. If that amounts to validation then I can accept that.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

I am, in no way, able to "verify" another persons techniques or successes at any level. There are some signs to watch for to safely avoid those who are predatory or "out to make a profit" from undereducated people but as long as a person is happy and healthy in their personal and religious activities I can accept them as they are.

Apologies - I did not mean to imply that you were verifying or invalidating anybody's beliefs.

I was pointing out that, as soon as one uses a phrase like "If something works for one individual then it is 'truth' for them..." one has established a verification system - basically the same one I use - that if it works for the one using it, it is valid.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

B. de Corbin,
No apology is necessary. I was not feeling that you were telling me that I was validating or judging the actions of others. I was just making it understood that I didn't feel comfortable as a judge of others.

We seem to agree that it is proper for someone to use what works for them. I am unsure how I would feel about teaching others my personal techniques but I do teach critical thought processes for others to use within their work. I suppose it is most important to be able to judge ones self and the processes used compared to the results obtained. My experience has shown that we are our harshest judges.

[sionnach]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

It all sound like the term unverified personal gnosis is just as it sound. Its ones personal experience where the feel a connection of their knowledge and beliefs and it is personal. This makes it hard to use in discussing pagan beliefs in general because it is a personal experience beyond the fact that you may find others with the same experience. The knowledge that you used to arrive at that gnosis is a different matter and that is what we can discuss more fully. In other words if your personal gnosis has lead you to belief in Thor as a real god, that is you personal gnosis but what you have found that lead to that conclusion is easier to discuss. Where is the source of knowledge which lead you to that gnosis is what is easier to discuss whether it be archeology, mythology, folklore, anthropology, and other variety of sources. I personally think there is a great protection of out own personal gnosis and yet a desire to find common ground in support of our beliefs.

[thalassa]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

All religion is a personal experience.

But, when you ascribe to a certain set of beliefs, you accept that paradigm as your own. And when you do that, your experiences tend to fit your preconceptions.