Paganism in 2063

[Medusa]

Re: Paganism in 2063

atheism. The other white meat.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Paganism in 2063

While I would love to see a place like The Temple of Artemis at Ephesus or Temple of Hekate at Lagina, Temple of Pahket at Beni Hassan or Temple of Bastet at Bubastis restored to their archaic grandeur and spiritual presence I have to admit the historical records also indicate priesthoods and priestesshoods were often purchased by the most powerful citizens in the area. A clergy of positions bought and passed within specific families has been well recorded for many of the temple, shrine and sanctuaries of the archaic med. While there were no Popes per say the High Priest or Priestess of those sites often held as much influence and power over the local area or region as the Pope does today. I can only surmise the same things occurred at sacred places in the more Northern latitudes or even other geographical areas such as Central and South America and the Orient. So pride, power and persona often superseded spiritual and religious duties and purposes.

I think having a place to worship, make offerings and libations and other sacred acts and processions would be grand. But I also think it would be no time before human greed and exploitation over shadowed the spiritual and sacred aspect of the structure, structures or surrounding area. Then the cost would be applied to maintaining the deception of spirituality and religion vice actually encouraging it.

[thalassa]

Re: Paganism in 2063

I totally agree.

I go even a step further and consider these shrines to be a meeting place. Somewhere that people can come together as a group, without fear of reprisal or oppression. Thal's example of an individual, working a soup kitchen, to honor their gods is wonderful. But it falls short of allowing a community of followers to organize it's own soup kitchen. All these ideas of temples or shrines being wasteful, that's nothing but a fallacy in this age of decadence. The only thing wasteful is the tax exempt status of certain *types* of meeting places. If we all come to meetings at my house, in this religious context, I can't claim tax exempt status for the space devoted to whichever pagan/Neo-Pagan gods or goddesses. Why? Why do only SOME temples, churches, mosques or synagogues, get to be considered valid religious structures? Why do only SOME religions get to do things, large events, for their community?

There are Pagan groups that do these things--Denton CUUPs has an adopt-a-spot roadside clean-up, there's a DFW Pagan Volunteer Network in the Dallas/Ft Worth area that volunteers at a food band, with the Special Olympics, etc). There are Pagan groups that are tax exempt organizations under the same laws that allow for churches and mosques and synagogues (Circle Sanctuary, Open Hearth Foundation, Covenant of the Goddess, etc).

It takes time and money and work by a dedicated group of volunteers and an even more dedicated and committed leader or leaders to create these things. Right now Pagans don't have enough of the former...and the latter end up burning out--like Peter Dybing.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm in no position to do the work of these people. Most of us aren't. Which means that we should be supporting these people and these organizations, even if it isn't exactly what we want, until we can get what we want...which won't ever happen unless these places can happen first. When I was in the Navy I learned two things about Pagans--you don't have to believe the same to worship together if you have a common struggle and a common goal (too many Pagans on the outside can't seem to manage that) and you take what you can get while you make what you want (we don't seem to do that every well either).

I would hardly call honoring them wasteful. Temples belong to the people. It is not territory. It is designing a building to honor them. Now building a wall along "national borders", or placing a flag, that's territorial marking. The temple is a sacred space, truly restricted to none. If nothing else, does it not pain you to see all this glorious art left to crumble? Those ancient temples were no mere territorial markers. They were something much greater.

The gods are the land, the sea, the sky. They are everything and they are nothing. They are the fox and the bear and the man. They are freedom and love and medicine. One does not need a place that belongs to "the people" because places don't belong to anyone, except themselves. Places should be honored, yes. But worship does not make them sacred. Being makes them sacred. Temples are just buildings. They are monuments to our glory, as man. By all means, restore ancient temples built by ancient people, or at least preserve them...our ancestor's glory should be remembered. But too often, its not remembered, its romanticized. But honestly, I think there is more majesty in letting them meet the same life cycle that all of us meet and returning to the state from whence they came. ...and the problem here is that my view of what the gods are (much-less what they *need*, to which my answer would be nothing, else they aren't gods), is just one view...and there are rarely two alike.

I'm not saying there is no value in having meeting places, community halls, shared ritual space or shrines. Projects like The Open Hearth Foundation in DC, Solar Cross Temple in San Francisco, Circle Sanctuary in WI, EarthHouse Project in MN, Four Quarters Farm in Pennsylvania, and a couple dozen others already exist and either have, or would love to have a physical location...and even more smaller spaces like Mystic Moon in Norfolk, which is a new age/Pagan shop that hosts a weekly drum circle open to anyone and classes, workshops, and a meeting room for other groups, as well as runs an informal food bank and coordinates several food drives for the established local food bank, including one at Pagan Pride Day.

They are great ideas, that sadly exist only because one or two, or a handful of dedicated people continue to work their ass off despite a largely unsupportive and apathetic patchwork of Pagan communities that say they "want something built" or "want community". Great. Pony up and donate*. Build these dreams and make them strong--that is where a diverse and visible Pagan community grows from (as opposed to Pagans as individuals being visible by going out and doing their every day business as being good people that openly identify as Pagan). Which is why, honestly, this is a moot point discussion anyhow. Generally speaking, Pagans, as a collective set of individuals, have no concept of sacrifice for a community.

I'm saying that no, I don't want a modern Parthenon or Uruk or Tenochtitlan. I don't want what they stand for--that we, as a species and as individual and collective societies and organizations support slave labor, the subjugation of pretty much everything that is part of our outgroup, and rampant environmental exploitation (and despite our overly romantic view, even indigenous peoples have been guilty of this on a limited basis, mostly due to limited technology). Ancient temples were built on ancient values...and some of them sucked. And if someone does build it, I certainly don't want it connected with "Paganism". And yes, I truly consider the construction of such a thing to be a wasteful folly, just as I consider a good portion of modern construction.


*Places like these need money to run. [sarcasm] Oh, but wait, religion/magic/training/healing/blessing/rituals/whatever shouldn't cost anything, and ya know...its too far away to be practical to me. And you know, its not *exactly* what I was thinking of when I said "community" or "a temple". So, I'm not going to bother. [/end sarcasm] (I'm not saying this is your attitude, I'm just saying that if I'd had a dollar every time I'd heard it over the past 22 years of being Pagan I could build a Pagan Community center with indoor and outdoor ritual space, a community garden, multiple shrines for different pantheons of gods, and an associated library...and I could probably stick it on a couple dozen acres and add in campsites and shower houses for festivals and the like...and maybe even hire staff to run it)

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Paganism in 2063

I think the big problem with preserving temples is :
1 Who gets to preserve them?
2. Who gets to dictate who can visit them and what they can do there?

And for an answer, an eyeful of things to come, just look at Stonehenge. The public are rarely allowed near it. And at the Summer Solstice it's become a farce, it really has. English Heritage controls everything. And they control it as they please and not as people want.

And there's no real justification for this. Down the road from Stonehenge, at Avebury there are dozens and dozens of huge stones and people can walk up to them and around them. Centuries around they even built a village amongst them. (It's still there.)

I don't pretend to know what the answer is, but I suspect that sacred places are all around us. We just need to see them better. Instead we've become seduced by places like Stonehenge.

[kazumi]

Re: Paganism in 2063

If pagans decide to become more organized , we would no longer have the key value that paganism has always had and that is to be about an individual not a mass of people for example pagans worship are gods to protect us our lively hood and our family while its common to have small community worship its not on a big scale like Christianity and I'm rather certain it never will and like one of the posters have said already its like herding cats

Directed at Claude's piece that isn't in that quote (hmf! It's a learning process),
I personally don't think that a person's beliefs/ecclectic thought "can't stand against organised Christian doctrine"...
Only if a person has the need to 'cling to' some pre-packaged idea of how the world works. But if you're truly looking, seeking, wanting to find answers for yourself, no doctrine is going to make your journey cease. Cause you doubts, probabaly, most likely. But doctrine working lies elsewhere than 'not having a ready set of answers for the Universe and Everything', I think.

I don't think constantly using circular reasoning, which is very common amongst organised religions with dogma, is really 'believing something'. It's nothing more than a kid sitting in a corner covering her ears and shouting "LALALALA"... I don't think anyone would like his paganism & followers to be like that?

I was pleasantly surprised to hear how that woman talked with those girls (even if it was very possibly a 'salessmile' type of thing) but she said something in the lines of... "We don't get to choose how God looks like, he tells us" Well... Can anyone tell me how she justifies that sentence to herself? (retorical question) Obviously she's read a book and quite likely formed HER vision of (a/the) God... And she probably follows 1 sub of Christianity, not all... Why is her idea superior to any other? So far that other people will suffer if they have an other/own idea of God... How can she know if she has saved anyone's soul, if they can't look into her head to see how she EXACTLY sees God...? I really want to ask her that now.

But yeah, I can't imagine who would really want any paganism to be like that, besides someone who just wants power... Money.. Somethin'.

[Serria]

Re: Paganism in 2063

Ok, so I have taken the time to read all four pages of this topic and I've formulated some opinions on some things and before you read, I am going into a field in life that will be, in some parts, historically based. I'm very knowledgable about history and why I'm stating this will become more clear later.

What do I think of Paganism in 2063?

So, about the article, I think it makes some very compelling points. Paganism is growing at a rapid rate as organized religion is becoming less and less appealing to the younger generations.

With the part about traditional books dying out, books in general are a dying breed (which is the saddest thing ever... I think I'm going to put up a rant thread about it). When I first became a Pagan, I didn't personally have the money to buy books and my mother hadn't yet accepted it and therefor, didn't fund me. I personally turned to Youtube and tried to start out learning from real Wiccans and Pagans who have been on their path awhile and have been able to live with it in their lives for some time. I personally don't have a problem with people learning this way, especially if they can't afford things.

An Organized Pagan Faith(s):

Yeah.. I'm afraid of this... Very much so. It's only in human nature to follow down the same path of wanting money, power, and fame. If Paganism becomes more organized, I fear it will be come the new Christianity.
I think Christianity will still be around as a major religion, but I don't think it will be nearly as large. Islam could easily become huge. Of course, if these wars in the Middle East continue, people's stigma toward the religion could intensify, which is horribly sad because the majority of Muslims are very nice people.In terms of it becoming more accepted as an actual thing, I agree. I don't think people will think it's a cult or a 'pseudo-religion' but I do think many will still think it's evil because if Christianity still exists, well....

As more people become Pagan, I fear that we'll start having to deal with the crazies more often. There will be people who get so into it that they will indeed go around and try to convert people. I also think that some new denominations of Paganism will pop up.

I don't want a Pagan text like someone suggested. No no no no. I think that will cause more harm then good.

There's gonna be a Pagan reality show. I can feel it. It's not going to be good.

The Temple and Shrine creation/restoration:

This is where my little history thing comes in!! YAY! Since this seems to be a big debate, I'd like to address it in a more historical sense and perhaps add a different side to the argument. I'd like to add some facts that could sway a few opinions. Maybe not, I don't know.

So in the past, ancient peoples would create temples and shrines to honor the gods. They would make these temples the center pieces of cities sometimes (Maya, Aztec, Inca) with vast commercial markets and palaces surrounding them.

Sometimes these temples were placed outside of cities but were extremely large and had these great statues of deities, and priests/esses that dedicated their lives to these temples. (Greek and sorta Roman, but Roman temples were often in cities)

Now, I want you to think about why these monuments were constructed. For the gods? A little bit but a simple house dedicated to them would have been just as effective. These temples were made of only the finest materials. They were donned in gold, silver, and jewels. Why did the gods need so much? To a commoner of the time, it would have been to show man's appreciation. In reality, the investment in these temples was purely political.

Temples were almost always built near large commercial trading centers. Why would nearly ever advanced ancient civilization do this? Simple. One big pissing contest.
Merchants from other civilizations would come to trade and see how wealthy and powerful this great people was. It was a sign of superiority and very little else. We can see this same mentality in very recent history. If you know anything about the space and nuclear arms race... Same concept.

I've been inside the Pantheon. I've been to Rome and I've seen what is left of their beautiful temples. The Pantheon is actually used as a Catholic Church and mass is held alongside the tourists that go inside. Nothing made me more angry than seeing a mass take place in the Pantheon where it simply didn't belong. I would personally would love for the great temples of the world be restored. However, I am inclined to agree with the people who suggested helping the less fortunate with the money it would take for restoration. Also, I don't think the gods would love anything more than if we restored the environment instead.

This was my two cents. I hope it's been beneficial.

[habbalah]

Re: Paganism in 2063

This is why we can't have a pagan state.

[Ash Branch]

Re: Paganism in 2063

We only have to look at the first century or so of every other major religion to see what might happen if we're no careful, indeed, already is happening. First we will see, or rather have seen, organisations springing up claiming to represent all of Paganism. These will spend an in creasing amount of time deciding who is, and who isn't, a Pagan, and exclude groups that they don't like. These pan-Pagan groups will consolidate into two or three big ones, who will then spend ages fighting it out between themselves, while attempting to suppress the heretics, but eventually more schisms will take place, while the religion tears itself apart.

[iris]

Re: Paganism in 2063

We only have to look at the first century or so of every other major religion to see what might happen if we're no careful, indeed, already is happening. First we will see, or rather have seen, organisations springing up claiming to represent all of Paganism. These will spend an in creasing amount of time deciding who is, and who isn't, a Pagan, and exclude groups that they don't like. These pan-Pagan groups will consolidate into two or three big ones, who will then spend ages fighting it out between themselves, while attempting to suppress the heretics, but eventually more schisms will take place, while the religion tears itself apart.

Ok. I haven't read all 4 pages. But, while I think this is an option, I don't think it's the most likely outcome. It's true that there are some big organisation, but every religion had those. The thing is that paganism is not a religion, it's a collective term for more things than I care to count. And some may gather in groups and yell at each other for being heretics - that's not really a new thing, but I like to think that a lot of pagans are strong individuals, or just plain stubborn. I see more and more people forging their own paths rather than following something already established. I like to think that it is going to continue that way.

[Ash Branch]

Re: Paganism in 2063

Ok. I haven't read all 4 pages. But, while I think this is an option, I don't think it's the most likely outcome. It's true that there are some big organisation, but every religion had those. The thing is that paganism is not a religion, it's a collective term for more things than I care to count. And some may gather in groups and yell at each other for being heretics - that's not really a new thing, but I like to think that a lot of pagans are strong individuals, or just plain stubborn. I see more and more people forging their own paths rather than following something already established. I like to think that it is going to continue that way.

Yes, Paganism might well be the exception, since it is already so diverse. But there are certainly organisations out there that are seeking to define who is, and who isn't, a Pagan.