Good and bad deities

[Rowanwood]

Re: Good and bad deities

It would be greatly appreciated if you actually read my post. If you had you would notice I said it's IN MY OPINION. I'm assuming you haven't even glanced at a bible.

To quote you, if you'd read my post, you'd see that I have not only read the Bible, but I was a practicing Christian of various flavors during most of my youth.

However, you seem quite intent on just being angry, so instead of further pointless discussion, I'm just going to leave you to it.

[thalassa]

Re: Good and bad deities

He's not omnipotent because he wants worshippers to do certain things and asks things of the worshippers like fighting invaders or building things. An omnipotent being who can create anything with a mere thought would not request such things. The only reason he's considered omnipotent is because he's powerful compared to people who use sticks and stones. Of course even a powerful person would SEEM omnipotent just like we seem omnipotent compared to an ant.

I am fully capable of baking a cake or a loaf of bread from scratch. I often go to the bakery because I'm too busy to spend half the day in the kitchen. And when I do decide to bake the cake at home, I have my children mix and pour and stir.

He's not omniscient because he asks questions such as asking Adam if he took the fruit. An all knowing person would already have known he took from the fruit.

I am fully capable of telling you which of my children dumped an entire bag of rice on the kitchen floor in order to play in it. I still ask them which one was responsible, to give them the opportunity to "fess up" and make amends without the threat of punishment.

He's not omnipresent because he would have seen Eve take from the fruit and know the Serpent deceived her. He would have seen it and stopped her from taking it. I don't think a fruit that makes a person "like God" is in Yahweh's favor, especially considering that he's a jealous god and doesn't want competition.

I am fully capable of holding my child's hand when the cross the street or going to the store counter and buying them a snack. But I usually encourage them to do it on their own, to learn to make their own decisions and mistakes.




Look, I'm not Christian, and I completely don't believe in the three O's, when it comes to big G, little -od...which totally makes sense, since I don't believe that YHWH is a fairly limited idea of the divine. But. I'm not going to bust into someone else's faith and tell them what they should be believing on the basis of your interpretation and opinion. And yes, you do that, in a good majority of your posts.

Getting all huffy because someone else has decided to correct you, and then being insulting to them, doesn't really reflect well on you. And, by insisting that Christians are "wrong" because you disagree with their theological point of view, it really just looks like you lack understanding, than them actually being "wrong".

Personally, I try to understand their faith from the perspective of the practitioner of that faith. I don't have to believe in or agree with the Bible to understand it from a plethora of perspectives. I might add that (from what I know of her) Rowanwood isn't Christian either, and doesn't believe in the Bible either, but she's still just as capable of understanding Christian theology from Chrisitan perspectices.

[LaneyM]

Re: Good and bad deities

I'd love to see you disprove that as well...

Also I'm not saying that if one doesn't believe in gods and goddesses, we are without morals. I'm saying THEY are the ones that gave us codes, morals, ethics and so forth. After all they gave everything else to us. Civilization, science, magic. Don't you think it's kind of obvious that they would have given us codes and morals to help us reach a higher plane of existence when we leave this planet? Without them, we'd be animal like and primal. They made us what we are.

Sometimes when we work with the same cocept everyday, we fail to see the flaws in our arguements. Humans ARE animals and everything we do comes from our animal instincts. Even all of our technology does nothing more than support what the animal human needs for its species based instincts. The proof of this is that the god myths we created reflects this as well.

The second flaw in your arguement comes your mistaken belief that animals other than humans have no moral behavior. All studied animals show behavior that could be labeled as morals if animal behavioral scientist used these kinds of terms. Life would not exist without these instincts. They don't come from gods, they come from generations of animals followed these instinctual needs. If an animal didn't follow these instincts, they were either banished or killed so no breeding with them occured. Thoses that followed behavioral patterns that were conductive to the species survival bred and passed along that behavioral pattern.

Think about it, do you want to breed with someone that does not behave correctly? Another way of saying this, would you do a crazy person? Self preservation keeps sane animals from mating with crazy ones.

No god needs to click their heel together and say, "there's nothing like morals," for morals to occur. All life does it quite well on its own.

Now, having said that, if you have unnatural urges that you can only control by having a belief that if you do bad, you will be punished in a supernatural way, by all means continue your belief. I, myself, will do my best not to harm because that is in my genetic makeup.

[Gleb]

Re: Good and bad deities

I, myself, will do my best not to harm because that is in my genetic makeup.

Genetic makeup? Or do you just follow the morals your faith?

[LaneyM]

Re: Good and bad deities

Genetic makeup? Or do you just follow the morals your faith?

You did not read my whole post. I have no faith, I am a pantheist. I find my connection to the universe to be what is sacred. As an animal that wishes to survive, I will not do something that could get me harmed. In so doing, I will act as human gentics demand. About the only time we go against this is when we are stressed. All animals behave differently when stressed. Humans just have the ability to rationalize our behavior.

There is an old saying, "There's no atheist in the foxhole." This comes from the fact that humans will become more religious when stressed. When stressed, humans will rationalize behavior that is destructive, often by using religion. Religion, since it began, gave us the rationalization to do things that go against human instincts. We feel justified to do "bad" things as long as it is in the name of our god.

So not only am I not acting from my faith but from instinct when I am trying not to harm, I would offer if I was going against my human genetic code, it would be because a religious belief allows me to rationalize destructive behavior.

[Alienist]

Re: Good and bad deities

I am fully capable of baking a cake or a loaf of bread from scratch. I often go to the bakery because I'm too busy to spend half the day in the kitchen. And when I do decide to bake the cake at home, I have my children mix and pour and stir.



I am fully capable of telling you which of my children dumped an entire bag of rice on the kitchen floor in order to play in it. I still ask them which one was responsible, to give them the opportunity to "fess up" and make amends without the threat of punishment.



I am fully capable of holding my child's hand when the cross the street or going to the store counter and buying them a snack. But I usually encourage them to do it on their own, to learn to make their own decisions and mistakes.




Look, I'm not Christian, and I completely don't believe in the three O's, when it comes to big G, little -od...which totally makes sense, since I don't believe that YHWH is a fairly limited idea of the divine. But. I'm not going to bust into someone else's faith and tell them what they should be believing on the basis of your interpretation and opinion. And yes, you do that, in a good majority of your posts.

Getting all huffy because someone else has decided to correct you, and then being insulting to them, doesn't really reflect well on you. And, by insisting that Christians are "wrong" because you disagree with their theological point of view, it really just looks like you lack understanding, than them actually being "wrong".

Personally, I try to understand their faith from the perspective of the practitioner of that faith. I don't have to believe in or agree with the Bible to understand it from a plethora of perspectives. I might add that (from what I know of her) Rowanwood isn't Christian either, and doesn't believe in the Bible either, but she's still just as capable of understanding Christian theology from Chrisitan perspectices.

...Why do so many people here exaggerate or take things out of context? I'm not busting anyone's faith. I'm not saying Jews or Christians are idiots for not agreeing with me. I just read the bible and I'm able to put two and two together. If someone says the sky is purple when it clearly isn't, are you wrong for correcting them? They say he's omnipotent even though the bible, the book they read, or at least claim to read, very clealry states that Yahweh has limitations. And I'm somehow an a hole for pointing it out even though you can read it for yourself and it clearly tells you this?

But thanks to the majority the thread is once again being derailed, and I'm sure I'll be called an a-hole even though I'm trying to stay on topic... Yahweh is not a saint and I'm not going to pretend that he is even if it means "offending" someone. All of the deities are fallible and make mistakes. Some are anti heroes which I would probably classify Yahweh as. Some only want fun and desires. Some are just flat out evil. I see them as really no different than humans or any lifeform. They may have their realms and powers but they have choices and do things they shouldn't have done and some have done things that helped humanity greatly.

What probably makes the thread difficult to read is some people, especially close minded people will assume their deity is good and this deity is evil, while the other religion will say "No YOU'RE deity is evil and ours is good" There doesn't seem to be too many entities that are universally accepted as overall good or evil though.

[blue_coyote]

Re: Good and bad deities

This is this book called the Bible. When speaking about or trying to prove/disprove something written in here said book then one should back up one's words with the proper quotations and exerts from said book. Also, my blue may be your purple or vise versus. My personal opinion is for you to atleast slightly acquaint yourself with a well translated version of the Bible (ie not NKJ unless you understand the words like "fear" translating to modern vernacular as "respect")

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Good and bad deities

Alienist, the problem comes from using categorical statements when you should be using contingency statements. Throw in a "I believe" or "In my opinion" every now and then, and people will stop asking you to prove everything.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Good and bad deities

They say he's omnipotent even though the bible, the book they read, or at least claim to read, very clealry states that Yahweh has limitations. And I'm somehow an a hole for pointing it out even though you can read it for yourself and it clearly tells you this?

If you were actually making a cogent argument toward the Bible expressing that the LoH has limitations then this statement would be worth the space it takes up on the server. You have not done so. You continually and repeatedly attempt to make the case that because the LoH chooses not to act in specific ways, he is incapable of doing so. As Thal pointed out, there are a lot of things that mortals can do but choose not to. Why in Life's name would a Power be any different. The silly thing is that I've heard attempts to argue based on scripture that the LoH is not omnipotent and while I doubt the text was meant to say what people thought it did at least there was support for their idea. You just haven't bothered to make a half decent case.

[thalassa]

Re: Good and bad deities

I just read the bible and I'm able to put two and two together. If someone says the sky is purple when it clearly isn't, are you wrong for correcting them? They say he's omnipotent even though the bible, the book they read, or at least claim to read, very clealry states that Yahweh has limitations. And I'm somehow an a hole for pointing it out even though you can read it for yourself and it clearly tells you this?

Actually, no. The Bible DOESN'T clearly tell anyone anything. And that is before we talk about which Bible. And then add in which translation of the Bible. The Bible says LOTS of things, and often those things contradict other statements in the Bible. My grandfather, an incredibly devout Christian and avid reader of the Bible used to tell me that "if you read the Bible and say that you believe everything in it, you are either a liar or a fool" (or alternately, "only an idiot or a liar believes everything they read in the Bible").

There are 38,000 denominations under the Christian umbrella. They do not believe all the same things, and when they do, they often believe them for different reasons. And sometimes, reading the same thing, they come to incredibly different conclusions. Some of them don't believe in the Trinity, some of them don't believe in the infallibility of the Bible, some of them believe in intercessory prayer, some of them believe in transubstantiation, some of them practice baptism at birth, some of them believe in the Holy Spirit, some of them believe Jesus came to America and buried magical golden plates, some of them believe gay people can get married in the church, some of them believe women can be ministers, some of them believe that celebrating Christmas is of the Devil.

But nearly all of them believe in the three O's. And while you might think that is equivalent to calling the sky purple, that's only because you haven't seen a truly magnificent sunset on a misty evening in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, right when the sun dips beyond the horizon, and the entire sky is a rainbow on fire. Its a matter of perspective. I was raised in an extremely liberal and progressive Christian tradition. As I was raised, the Bible is not literally true--its a book written my men inspired by God, about their ideas about God and Gods place in our lives, and our place in Gods kingdom...and it is only infallible in the sense that the essence of man's relationship with the divine is unerring, not that the words themselves are without error. Man's relationship with God changes over time and from culture to culture, and with greater understanding of ourselves and the world around us.

Even so, the denomination that I was raised in believes in a God of the three O's. God is the divine parent--god is not a human parent. God can do, can see, can be...period. But God makes a choice, just as a parent makes a choice. At a certain point, a parent that fixes everything for their child, is an enabler. At some point, a parent's responsibility is to let their kids fuck up. I might not believe in that same religion, or that same god, but as a parent, I know that part of my job is letting my kids fuck up without my intervention, even if and when I could "fix" the problem for them.

Or, as I said before (the part of my post you apparently ignored)...

I am fully capable of baking a cake or a loaf of bread from scratch. I often go to the bakery because I'm too busy to spend half the day in the kitchen. And when I do decide to bake the cake at home, I have my children mix and pour and stir.

I am fully capable of telling you which of my children dumped an entire bag of rice on the kitchen floor in order to play in it. I still ask them which one was responsible, to give them the opportunity to "fess up" and make amends without the threat of punishment.

I am fully capable of holding my child's hand when the cross the street or going to the store counter and buying them a snack. But I usually encourage them to do it on their own, to learn to make their own decisions and mistakes.

The real failure of Christianity, IMO, isn't that people believe that God's basic characteristics include the three O's, but that the three O's, as they are explained by most tradition that I have encountered, imply a favored status one person or group or another by allowing suffering to work as a means to an end and by holding intervention as a reward for the "worthy". And I guarantee that someone, somewhere, has an explanation for this. I may not agree with it, but I can certainly respect their perspective on the matter...provided it neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg (to toss in some TJ)

[Medusa]

Re: Good and bad deities

I just read the bible and I'm able to put two and two together.

This explains it. You seem extremely curious about the book you just read. To the point of maybe you need to go to a Christian site and ask them there about your curiosities. We are not Christian theologians.
That and you are getting on my last ever loving nerve. You are like Madonna when she 'discovered' Kabalah.

[White Wolf]

Re: Good and bad deities

To me the deities aren't "good" or "bad", they just are.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Good and bad deities

To me the deities aren't "good" or "bad", they just are.

I always have to ask "In relation to what or whom?"

In relation to me?
In relation to my family?
In relation to the human race?
Or a nation?
Or one particular group of radicals?

You get my drift? What's good from one perspective may not be good from another.

Since I admit that I always instinctively think of myself first, I generally take it to mean "Is this god good or bad for ME?

The answer for me happens to be "bad, very, very bad."

For anyone else, well, I dunno.

[Bjorn]

Re: Good and bad deities

I tend to believe that gods and people's relationship to them are completely dependent on the attitude of the person/people in question. If you're a dick then you could pray to Artemis and try to shoot men who want to bed you with arrows. If you're a reasonable person then you can revere Satan without trying to deceive and be unnecessarily cruel to people.

Essentially, if you're a dick, you're probably going to stay a dick. If you're not, you're probably going to stay that way as well.

Ergo, no, I do not believe there are any naturally benevolent deities (were I to believe in deities at all). I believe in people, and believe that their spiritual choices will reflect their innate tendencies.

[TheTeddy]

Re: Good and bad deities

I'll give my two cent here for my returning post.

My pantheon sits right now with four deities. The first two are the Earth herself, and the fauna that roam about her surface including us humans. The Goddess and God respectively. For these two I don't feel they have "good" or "evil" ways, nor are they just as they are. They have changing emotions just as any individual has.

There is Athena who was the first to come to my dreams. She did nothing but place a hand on my shoulder at first. It wasn't malicious or benevolent. It was more to confirm she is there.

But then there was Kali. She showed up a couple of times before I caught onto who she was. They were nightmares filled with bloody scenes. When I finally came to realize, she simply opened her palm to the gruesome scene. A gesture that didn't say 'this is what I am capable of' but 'this is what I would do to protect you.' To many that would be very malicious, "evil" if you will. But I felt it a kind gesture.

So I agree with most people on here. It isn't the deity that is good or evil. It's the people.