Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

[Dagger]

Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

If we boil it down to the basics, initiating or participating in a war goes against basic Wiccan beliefs. As for other forms of paganism, I can't say much...
But in the end, if someone wants to go to war, they'll make up an excuse. Sometimes, the excuse is religion, and that's happened before in other cultures. Today's pagans would, in their vast majority, find the idea laughable.

[thalassa]

Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

If we boil it down to the basics, initiating or participating in a war goes against basic Wiccan beliefs.

Which beliefs would those be?

Gerald Garner was no pacifist.

(as a former Wiccan and a veteran, I totally disagree with this statement)

[anomalycovens]

Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

well i do sometimes use what is sort of and pagan/wiccan equivalent which is moon water just as it entitles basically just water charged by the moon or call it holy water like the christians do i don't really label things so i don't call it by a specific name but it all comes down to what you believe yourself i however do use forms of holy water (:

[Ektor]

Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

Oh boy and how have them. Ever wonder why so many old pagan religions have blood-thirsty war gods? The world was a very different place back then. In many places, war was inherent and an inevitable part of life, thank the Goddess this isn't the case anymore.
For example, in ancient Athens, the state as organized by democracy partook openly in periodic warring to acquire plunder so it had money. It was an accepted and normalized practice back then.
We have things like Viking raids and Aztec Flower Wars, all who are either religiously acceptable or even motivated in the second place, etc... Many old pagan religions are really bloody.

We have to understand that this individual caring for each other, even if they're not your family, tribe or nation is something rather modern-age in inspiration. Ancient Times paganism just doesn't have this. Even in Hinduism we find justification for warring in a sense that "Warriors are needed to protect, the soul is immortal and you're only fulfilling your Dharma, those men will reincarnate and you're doing nothing wrong".

I myself consider all forms of self-defense valid. If someone attacks another person, this attacker has signed a silent oath accepting his life to be taken by the one attacked. But this aggression in itself generates a lot of bad energies that do no good to anyone. Hatred and violence are antagonistic to my beliefs, so I believe violence in itself is an evil thing, but in cases of self defence it's a necessary evil, and in no other time it's acceptable.

[Aikadon]

Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

The few pagans I have spoken to, Especially Wicca, talk allot with me, as one with christian background and who still practice christian rituals and parts of christian faith, about the Christian Oppressors, and talk of them as the one who oppress their freedom of religion. Some of them are resentful towards those of my religion. I will empathize with these, because allot of them have personal experience of being oppressed by Christians who say their faith is "wrong" or simply "Untrue".

However, on the topic of "War", or Counterprossecution, or counteroppression, I feel that it would (a) be counterproductive and further add to the thought from the masses about pagans as "Crazy hippies", so on so forth, and (b) be against what many pagans believe. Allot of pagans choose not to be resentful towards christians, and other oppressive people, because they don't want to become like the ones who caused them harm. By waging war against those who fought you about your religion, or by prosecuting those who prosecuted you for your religion, you sort of "Stoup to their level". Which I think, luckily, many people see as dishonoring. It's important to many of those I've spoken with to be strong, and to be the better man, and to not fall into a vicious circle of vengeance and blood for blood, but to instead try and better the world.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

While war was certainly endemic in, say ancient Greece, it was never fought for religious reasons. Nobody really cared which gods one worshipped. And before anyone brings up Socrates - who was found guilty of religious offences - it's important to remember that Socrates was a teacher of tyrants (include Alcibiades). That was almost certainly the real reason he was prosecuted and executed.

Having a god of war or battle doesn't equate with pursuing a Holy War. It just means people felt a bit safer with a particularly bloodthirsty deity on their side. As you do.

[Immersion]

Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

So I have seen some people on here talk about militant pagan friends of there's that hate Christians and think we should support persecution of them. So it made me think, do Pagans call holy wars or have they called one? I know sometimes I wish I could call Holy war on certain groups of people but then I remember they aren't all bad. Just let me know I am really curious now.

Why support the persecution of *anyone*? There is already too much hate, bigotry, ignorance, and violence in this world. There is no need for it. Not that it *really* matters, but now having been on both sides of the proverbial fence I understand it (the Christian vs Pagan, or Pagan vs Christian thing) better. I long for the time when we can all get together and appreciate our similarities and learn from our differences.

[Hekla]

Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

While war was certainly endemic in, say ancient Greece, it was never fought for religious reasons. Nobody really cared which gods one worshipped. And before anyone brings up Socrates - who was found guilty of religious offences - it's important to remember that Socrates was a teacher of tyrants (include Alcibiades). That was almost certainly the real reason he was prosecuted and executed.

Having a god of war or battle doesn't equate with pursuing a Holy War. It just means people felt a bit safer with a particularly bloodthirsty deity on their side. As you do.

My thoughts exactly.

[Ektor]

Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

I'm not really trying to imply holy war was frequent, but old pagan religions definitely have war in a central spot cause it was a big part of life back then. The Gita is sung from a battlefield, most myths are full of combat, etc... Societies in different times naturalize different concepts: the same way modern individualism would seem absurd to an Ancient person, the way they saw war and killing as righteous and glorious wouldn't sit well with us.

[Louisvillian]

Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

(as a former Wiccan and a veteran, I totally disagree with this statement)

I disagree with it as well, though I can see their point, somewhat, in that harm-reduction implicitly means nonviolence. But things are never that simple.
Further, it ignores the significant place Wiccan and Pagan veterans have had in progressing the rights of the community as a whole. So much legal recognition has occurred because of the presence of Neopagans in the military, especially in the past 10-15 years.

[Claude]

Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

I can't think of a single Roman war that can compare to the Crusades or Jihads. Roman wars were definitely fought for political or economic reasons. Within the Cultus Deorum there really isn't a concept of right and wrong gods. If you follow Roman expansion, you'll see that they actively adopted or absorbed foreign cults: Epona, Sol Invictus, Mithras, Isis, Attis, Cybele, etc.

When the Roman state went to war, they sought the help of the Gods. There are certain rituals that were performed to Iuppiter and other deities that were specifically geared towards divining Their opinion or gaining their favor. That isn't the same thing as Iuppiter sailing down and order the legions to march on Gaul. The political reason comes first and the divine backing comes second.

A good example of the Roman worldview is in the Aeneid. Iuno is the goddess who reigns over Carthage (a non-Roman culture). She champions the Carthaginians against Aeneas and ultimately the future Roman people, but in the end Iuno was still worshiped within Rome's walls. The gods aren't numerable or stagnant. They appeared in multiple cultures and other gods that are culturally specific (Britannia) are not necessarily false.

Holy wars, in the way that we know them, really can't exist in universalist cultures. Now this isn't excluding wars fought because one culture feels like it's losing its identity, which is often times tied to its religion. These wars, although including religious aspects, can't be classified as holy wars because the greater goal is the preservation of a culture not the extinction of a religion in the name of another.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

I can't think of a single Roman war that can compare to the Crusades or Jihads.

You seriously need some help with your knowledge of history.

[Hekla]

Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

You seriously need some help with your knowledge of history.

99.99% sure the comparison is in the reason, not the execution. You know...considering this is a subject of whether or not pagans had holy wars. The reason Rome saw Christians as an enemy was because they perceived the movement as a threat to the government, not necessarily or only their pantheon. Which eventually of course the opposition did take over.

During a Google search before posting this so I don't look like an ass, I came across this website: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/religious/holywar.shtml
But I found nothing to indicate that Rome, or any other pagan civilization, had holy wars. Now there is this little snippet:

In tribal cultures (including Biblical ones) when a people lose a war they often have to change to the worship of the winner's gods.

Not sure how common that was in Europe particularly, since I know the Romans didn't care which gods the Gauls worshiped as long as they were loyal to the emperor and paid their dues. Or something of the sort; it's 2nd-hand information.

[Claude]

Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

You seriously need some help with your knowledge of history.

Instead of simply stating that I'm wrong, how about you show me? I'd love to learn something new.

[Ektor]

Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

Read up on Aztec Flower Wars. Literally being wars to capture people to sacrifice. It's true that Holy War in the way to erase beliefs and things like that wasn't around, but many wars had this kind of religious backing to it. Of course this boils down mostly to Historic causes, but again, so do all things. I doubt an actual Holy War could break out nowadays between any religion.