Fate & Destiny

[Gleb]

I was thinking lately about the topic and after all, I think that these two words have a different meaning no matter how I look at them.

Destiny - many people think that it's everything. I mean, how one's life will end, who he must be and how he should act. In my opinion, destiny is how every human will end this world's life of his.
Fate - some people consider it to be a synonymous of destiny. Perhaps it is, in some cases. But I think that, the true meaning of this word is - what someone is meant to do.

Sometimes, we choose one of the two, when the other is the total opposite. What will happen during the rest of the life - depends on the choice of every individual.
Or, there is another option. When we change our whole purpose of living. I think that only destiny can be changed in this case, because fate is either done/accomplished already, or will be in the future.
One thing I am certain about, is that there is always a choice. There is always a way to change things or the flow of events.

I will gladly hear your opinions about it.

[nbdy]

Re: Fate & Destiny

I knew I would find this interesting because I don't know whether I believe in fate or destiny, but I don't disbelieve them either. I am actually kind of muddy on what I think they mean. To me it always seemed that these ideas contained an element of being ordained before birth, and that raises issues with free will.

For some reason, as I wrote that I got a strong image of Darth Vader asserting, "Join me. It is your destiny!" He was wrong, but he might have been right. Luke certainly had it in him to follow in dear old dad's footsteps, but he chose differently. So maybe there is room for free will while remaining true to one's inner nature. Maybe my destiny is something I construct for myself out of the potentialities at hand. Then destiny is not fixed, but evolves as a person's life unfolds. Interesting idea.

Fate doesn't have the same feel to it. Thinking about it I am drawn to the cliche "fateful end," as if a person's death was predetermined. I am something of a natural fatalist, so I am actually all good with the idea of it being my time when it's my time, but I can't explain that natural inclination. Maybe fate is something we've made up so that we don't worry so much. I don't know. If there is a "fate" for each person, what they are "meant to do," as you say, what is its source?

[Gleb]

Re: Fate & Destiny

Following the steps of parents isn't necessary. There is always a choice for everyone - that's what I believe.

Recently one of the teachers in my high school was telling us about the topic during one of the lessons. His lecture is the source. Since then, I was thinking more in depth about the fate and destiny topic for some days.
The teacher is the source,

[LunarHarvest]

Re: Fate & Destiny

I personally think that 'fate' and 'destiny' are two separate things which refer to a common subject. In their usage, they are often made to be properly different in their meaning.

Fate is something that is determined to happen to us.
Destiny is something that we are determined to do.

I don't really believe in fate or destiny, to be honest. Perhaps some people can gain some perspective on how things might be, under certain circumstances, but I ultimately believe that every person's actions are freely made and undetermined, rather than the actions of a person being laid out beforehand, so these perspectives would be only one of many possibilities.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Fate & Destiny

"Fate" is what you get that you don't like, "destiny" is what you get that you do.

Both are false terms, intended to negate the reality that an individual's actions, mixed with the environment, lead to an outcome which may be good or bad.

[Alienist]

Re: Fate & Destiny

It is an interesting topic for sure. From the way I see it, Destiny is something that will happen and cannot be prevented but fate is something that happened and could have been prevented.

[Gleb]

Re: Fate & Destiny

Very interesting. I guess I should do a little bit more research about the topic. But one thing that's common - both have a huge affect on people's everyday life.

[Roknrol]

Re: Fate & Destiny

I believe in neither (although that wasn't always the case).

When the argument for believing in unproven things (religion, for example) becomes strong enough, it infects other topics that may only lightly touch on the original. For Fate and Destiny I kind of fell away from believing those when I realized that both of them assume a lack of personal freedom and choice.

If you are "destined" (for example) to meet the "perfect lover" and "fall in love" and "live happily ever after"...do you realize how many peoples' actual choices may have had to have been changed/altered to make that happen? Even if you assume that most of the time we are mostly able to choose, that still leaves a little percentage of "personal, but beyond my control", and I just can't bring myself to believe that. What happens to me I either made it happen or let it happen, but I absolutely DO have a choice.

Fate falls into the same kind of fuzzy zone...on the surface it seems nice and neat and makes a lot of sense. But only if you ignore the other 7 billion people on the planet who have to be in the right place at the right time doing the right thing in order for YOU to have your fate. I've never thought I was all that important

This reminds me of an argument made against one of the Star Trek shows (I want to say Voyager, but I think it cropped up in a few of the series' ) with the crew interacting with their dopplegangers from "Opposite-Land". One of the things that was pointed out was that if in the "real world" you have a couple "A" and "B", perhaps "A" is a doctor and "B" got their start as an x-ray tech, they hit it off, they get married, and they have a kid. Even if you assume that that other Universe is so fundamentally different that things mostly turn out the same, let me pose this to you:

A & B are a couple, they have a kid C.
D & E are also a couple (the same couple, really), and they have a kid F.

Now let's say in this second reality, that E is killed - heart attack, hit by a starship, whatever. Does that mean that couple A & B can now NEVER have an additional kid? Since the opposite "couple" no longer exists, in order to maintain consistency between the Universes (allowing dopplegangers to continue existing) the freedom to choose one's destiny is yanked from their grasp.

So sorry for the sideline, but that's more or less how I view Fate and Destiny. Largely speaking, I am in control over my life. Nobody else. Nobody is pulling any strings except for the generally lost population that I deal with every day. Yes, sometimes they get to choose how my day goes, but not my future.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Fate & Destiny

I don't believe in fate and destiny in the same way that many people believe in them (or don't believe in them). Which may seem odd given that I am Northern Tradition and sworn to the Goddess who is my pantheon's rough equivalent to 'the goddess of fate and destiny'.

I believe in wyrd and orlog, not fate and destiny. Most people seem to think that they are the same thing, and that 'wyrd' and 'orlog' are just fancy old words that we like to use to refer to them, which isn't true. To be honest I'm not really sure that I have the braincells to explain this properly right now so I think I'll come back to it at some point.

[Gleb]

Re: Fate & Destiny

I don't believe in fate and destiny in the same way that many people believe in them (or don't believe in them). Which may seem odd given that I am Northern Tradition and sworn to the Goddess who is my pantheon's rough equivalent to 'the goddess of fate and destiny'.

I believe in wyrd and orlog, not fate and destiny. Most people seem to think that they are the same thing, and that 'wyrd' and 'orlog' are just fancy old words that we like to use to refer to them, which isn't true. To be honest I'm not really sure that I have the braincells to explain this properly right now so I think I'll come back to it at some point.

What are wyrd and orlog? How to they differ from destiny and fate, in what way?

- - - Updated - - -

I hear about these two terms for the first time, and I am more than interested to know their meaning

[Roknrol]

Re: Fate & Destiny

IIRC (and my memory could certainly be faulty - I never followed the Norse Traditions) Wyrd is more like Karma than Fate/Destiny, in that there is a "balance that must be maintained" sort of a thing.

Please, anyone - correct me if I'm wrong. I don't remember orlog though.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Fate & Destiny

IIRC (and my memory could certainly be faulty - I never followed the Norse Traditions) Wyrd is more like Karma than Fate/Destiny, in that there is a "balance that must be maintained" sort of a thing.

Please, anyone - correct me if I'm wrong. I don't remember orlog though.

Not quite, but that's one of the translations that people use, because most pagans tend to understand the concepts of karma and Moirae-style fate, so try to make direct equivalents. Having said that, there are Heathen groups and Norse-style Wiccans who use those exact definitions. So I guess it depends on who you talk to. lol

What are wyrd and orlog? How to they differ from destiny and fate, in what way?

First a bit of backstory... as I have learned via a great deal of research and lessons from the Nornir (that part is UPG, obviously). Then the definitions themselves. I apologise in advance but there WILL be spinning, weaving and fabric analogies... because they help explain the concepts. That's why most of us who work with the Nornir invariably end up spinners and/or weavers ourselves. It's like a pre-requisite lol

Crash Course in Rae'ya's Northern Tradition concepts of 'fate'...

In the Northern faiths there are three giantesses who look after the progression of events (both world events and personal events). They are collectively called the Nornir (with a capital N, there are some women and spirits who are considered to be lesser norns, but we're not talking about those) and their names are Urdhr, Verdhandi and Skuld. I am sworn to Skuld.

The Nornir control wyrd and orlog (I'll get to that in a minute) in two ways... they spin and weave cosmic threads into a giant cosmic tapestry; and they record events into permanent record by carving them into the very fabric of the world tree, Yggdrasil (if you don't know the concept of world trees, Google 'axis mundi'... that's what Yggdrasil is to the Northern faiths). Each person has a single Thread spun for them, which represents their life and path through that life. Our Threads then get woven into the tapestry, and where they meet other Threads is where two people meet and interact.

Now for those of you who don't know anything about spinning or how thread is made, basically you start with something like wool off a sheep or a fluff of cotton. It's just little individual hairs or fibres clumped together. You comb these fibres out so they all line up. Then you take these fibres and you pull them along each other until you have a nice length, then you twist it and twist it and twist it. Now it's thread. So in any given length of thread... any single piece of cotton thread or wool that gets knitted into a scarf, is made up of thousands of tiny little fibres that have been combed and twisted into each other. If you take all the twist out of the thread, it unravels and you have loose fluffy fibres again. This sounds strange but it's important for when we talk about orlog.

So the great tapestry is what most people call 'Wyrd'. It is the giant pattern of events that is laid out for us. The Nornir weave our threads in and out of the tapestry, linking them with each other, twisting them together, pulling them apart, making a big image of how the world is running. But it's not a set-in-stone Pattern that is determined for us. It's dynamic and changing and shifting with every decision we make. It is the decisions that WE make, the actions that WE take, the way that WE interact with the people around us in each present moment that determines how our Thread will progress through the tapestry. WE are controlling our own futures. But so are the people around us. Because we don't live in a vacuum, so each and every person we come in contact with is affecting our decisions and actions. They're Threads are affecting our own Threads. And sometimes there are ripples from people that are not directly in contact with us.

The future is like a room full of doors. What we do right now, in this very moment, will determine which doors are open to us and which are closed. Sometimes every door is open and we can go in whichever direction we please. Sometimes we put ourselves in a corner with the decisions that we've made, and a series of events will happen that HAS to happen, because we've closed off every other door in the room. This then feels like predetermined fate, but it's not really. Each decision that we make in any given course of events will make a certain future consequence more and more likely. That's how divination works... it looks at the present moment and which future is likely to occur based on our current path. But that's not to say that it WILL happen. We can change it by changing our own actions.

So wyrd is the cosmic pattern of events. You can look at wyrd from a global perspective, or as an individual person. My personal wyrd is the pattern that my Thread is likely to take based on my actions. There may be some set events that will occur because I've closed off all the other doors. There may be some set events because the people around me have tangled my Thread in theirs and so I'm along for the ride. There may be some set events because a deity has petitioned the Nornir to make it so (yes, they can do that... though just because they ask doesn't mean that Skuld will make it happen). There may be some events that will occur regardless of which door I go through, because all roads lead to that anyway. But for the most part, the future is not set and my fate is in my own hands.

Orlog is a bit more complicated, but at the same time is more straightforward. Orlog is the fibres that make up our Threads. Remember when I was talking about spinning thread from a cotton fluff? Orlog is the cotton fluff. What our Threads are made up of has some influence over our personal wyrd. Coming back to spinning and weaving in the real world... the type of thread dictates things like how warm the fabric will be, how it will hang, how thick it is, whether or not it's waterproof, how soft it is and whether you use it for underwear or a hat or a jacket. With wyrd and orlog, what is spun into your Thread (your orlog) will have an affect on you, your personality, your decision making and how your Thread moves through the tapestry of wyrd.

Where do the Nornir get the fibres that make up our orlog? They recycle them from the tapestry of wyrd. Urdhr is the Norn who in charge of That Which Has Become - once the tapestry of wyrd has been played out, she records the events into the permanent record then unravels the tapestry. She combs out the Threads and turns them back into fibres, which are then spun into new Threads for new people. For each of us, our personal Threads are made up of fibres from those who have gone before us, usually our ancestors and the people who had a great deal of influence over us. So our orlog is the layers of people and events that have made us who we are. This is why we sometimes end up carrying what people consider 'karmic debt' around with us. Because unpaid debts and promises will stay with the fibres and be inherited by the people who then have them spun into their Threads. So if my personal orlog ends up with a debt or curse or promise that an ancestor of mine made, I then carry the burden of the debt or curse or promise. And it may restrict my ability to control my own Thread... it may close doors before I even get to them. Or it may be a boon or blessing, and I will have more doors open to me.

Verdhandi is the Norn who is in charge of That Which Is Becoming. It is usually Her that I see spinning new Threads. She is also the one in charge of the present moment, of what is happening right here and now, of how the tapestry of wyrd looks at this very moment. Skuld is the Norn in charge of That Which Must Become. It is She who plots out future events, who opens and shuts doors, who keeps track of the debts that must be paid out. It is She who marks the future tapestry for set-in-stone-events that MUST occur, for whatever reason. And She is the one who cuts our Thread when we die.

Hopefully that made some kind of sense! Make of it what you will lol

[Gleb]

Re: Fate & Destiny

Very interesting! Thanks very much, Ra'eya!

[nbdy]

Re: Fate & Destiny

Fate is something that is determined to happen to us.
Destiny is something that we are determined to do.

I like that. Fate is external events and destiny our inner drive. Perhaps it is my destiny to overcome my fate.

[Rick]

Re: Fate & Destiny

Rae'ya, that might be absolutely the best description if Wyrd I've ever read or heard. Brilliant.