Is there a name for my beliefs?

[Seeking a Religion]

Re: Is there a name for my beliefs?

Does it really matter? Quite honestly, religion is a tool. My reality is different from your reality, and whether that is the 'true' reality, is irrelevant. I follow my path, and you follow yours. So long as my path leads me to do good deeds, believe in myself, and live my life with joy, does it really matter if it is grounded in fact?

Take metaphysics, for example. Now, I'm sure some stuff is plausible, like rare cases of telepathy, and the such. But look at crystals and herbs. Both crystals and herbs have metaphysical properties. When did they acquire their metaphysical properties? How can we tell they have these properties? You don't stick a branch from the Ash tree in your mouth, and sense love and prosperity. Did it grow these properties, like leaves? Does hematite tell you that it is a grounding stone...no. There is no quantifiable way to measure these things. Quartz did not go from a siliceous magmatic fluid, to suddenly possessing power. It didn't experience metaphysics during its cooling stage. Someone, at some point, made an intuitive guess, and decided that yes, this object symbolizes this thing.

And now, if that's not make-believe, I don't know what is. But even knowing that, does it matter to me, when I create magical incense? No, of course not. Because there is power in your own belief. It doesn't matter if it is true.

Great Philosopher C.S. Lewis is quoted as saying : ' The unexamined Faith isn't worth believing in ' . With you saying it doesn't matter if your Beliefs are grounded in fact or not strikes me as very very odd behavior in all respects to you. Its kind of like saying :' I don't really care if its real or not...just so long as I get titillated somehow ' . Granted there are tons of things to believe in but doesn't it show integrity to find something to believe in that has merits, has a truthful foundation, and lines up with scientific backing to at least some degree. When you say it may not be reality to me but it is to you ---- why shouldn't we both base the reality on an objective unbiased resource ? Seems to me the neutral instrument to whether something is true or not is how well does it line up with scientific scrutiny in that : Is it testable, is it repeatable, and is it observable. ?

I say this in all respect, but, im wondering why you are willing to believe in something that is not supportable apart from how it makes you feel, or the power it gives you (which if false would be a lie) , etc... ? In short : Should how something makes us feel veto whether it is true ? Im for the latter as I want to follow and believe in something that IS the truth not only for me but is the universal global truth with scientific and historical evidences that are factual and which are objective and unbiased . Shouldn't the standard of testing be something like this and not subjective ? Thanks for sharing.

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They're flawed questions. I say that because any spiritual path requires belief in the unknown and the unprovable. For example, one of the entities I work with is Kwan Yin. Can I tell you about my experiences with Her? Sure. Can I prove that She's real? Of course not, any more than you can prove that She's not real.

No spiritual belief is going to have an objective, unbiased opinion. It's either based on the thoughts, beliefs, and politics of the person that formed it in the past (if it's a known religion), or your own thoughts, beliefs and politics, if you form it yourself.

There's nothing saying you can't be spiritual and believe in science. I certainly do. I just have experiences that can't be explained by a scientific process, and I accept that, because I believe (not know, because I can't prove it) that they are true, and that they give me a sense of happiness and peace.

But if that happiness and peace is built on a faulty premise of a Religion that is untrue..then your happiness and peace is based on a lie . Would you agree ? What im trying to determine in my Seeking is is there a Religion/Diety/Faith that IS squarely centered on much historical and scientific evidence ... and evidence which has been determined and discovered from a separate, no-axe-to-grind, unbiased Source . Im a Person who is of a scientific rationale Mind who believes we should use our Mind , reason, and logic to test what we choose to enter into ; I could very easily enter into believing our Earth has some personal entity to it and that it bestows upon us some level of spiritual energy and even wisdom and direction.......but I could never feel satisfied if it were not provable to some level . This is the struggle ive had for quite awhile now as I continue my investigation of the many Religions and Philsophies.

[Northman]

Re: Is there a name for my beliefs?

I'll be honest I can't really see a spiritual path working for you if you have to go out of your way to prove it, spirituality can't be proved scientifically there's no experiment that could actually prove the existence of a higher power. The reason us as humans believe in higher powers, is, in my opinion the natural state of man we're programmed to believe in a higher power. When I'm on a hike on Burbage edge and I look down from the peak to see the moorland slowly morph into green fields full of shaggy upland sheep and highland cattle I don't stop and start wondering about how much energy I'll have used to climb the peak, or the best method of calculating the gradient of the hill, I'll stop and wonder at how such barren heather filled stark moorland can suddenly give way to verdant green life giving grass. I'll feel amazed at how the great blocks of millstone grit that litter the moor we're swept across the landscape by ancient long dead rivers which thousands of years ago covered almost the entirety of my island. And somehow, these ancient blocks still stand there today. Surely a power as awesome as that wielded by nature is worthy of veneration or in depth appreciation? Whether it's by prayer, meditation or just planting trees as a human being I feel it's my spiritual duty to help attend to this mighty force somehow. And that is my spirituality, and so far science is unable to explain why I feel such a link with the land but I do. If I attempted to prove these spiritual feelings I've always had I'm concerned it could destroy my spirituality through over scrutiny so yeah, before you search for a spiritual path I think you're best off thinking about faith with animal instinct and how different faiths make you feel. Rather than just analysing each and every religion in the world until you find something you deem most logical. Best wishes

[habbalah]

Re: Is there a name for my beliefs?

Great Philosopher C.S. Lewis is quoted as saying : ' The unexamined Faith isn't worth believing in ' . With you saying it doesn't matter if your Beliefs are grounded in fact or not strikes me as very very odd behavior in all respects to you. Its kind of like saying :' I don't really care if its real or not...just so long as I get titillated somehow ' . Granted there are tons of things to believe in but doesn't it show integrity to find something to believe in that has merits, has a truthful foundation, and lines up with scientific backing to at least some degree. When you say it may not be reality to me but it is to you ---- why shouldn't we both base the reality on an objective unbiased resource ? Seems to me the neutral instrument to whether something is true or not is how well does it line up with scientific scrutiny in that : Is it testable, is it repeatable, and is it observable. ?

I say this in all respect, but, im wondering why you are willing to believe in something that is not supportable apart from how it makes you feel, or the power it gives you (which if false would be a lie) , etc... ? In short : Should how something makes us feel veto whether it is true ? Im for the latter as I want to follow and believe in something that IS the truth not only for me but is the universal global truth with scientific and historical evidences that are factual and which are objective and unbiased . Shouldn't the standard of testing be something like this and not subjective ? Thanks for sharing.

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But if that happiness and peace is built on a faulty premise of a Religion that is untrue..then your happiness and peace is based on a lie . Would you agree ? What im trying to determine in my Seeking is is there a Religion/Diety/Faith that IS squarely centered on much historical and scientific evidence ... and evidence which has been determined and discovered from a separate, no-axe-to-grind, unbiased Source . Im a Person who is of a scientific rationale Mind who believes we should use our Mind , reason, and logic to test what we choose to enter into ; I could very easily enter into believing our Earth has some personal entity to it and that it bestows upon us some level of spiritual energy and even wisdom and direction.......but I could never feel satisfied if it were not provable to some level . This is the struggle ive had for quite awhile now as I continue my investigation of the many Religions and Philsophies.

If you're looking for scientific proof of a higher power, it's just not going to happen. Science is unable to prove or disprove such a thing, because there's nothing quantifiable to test or test against. The best way to get a less biased opinion about a religion is, in my experience, to read a book about it written by someone who isn't, and never has been, a part of that religion.

Basically, what you're asking for is a recording of what sunlight sounds like. It's not possible because there's nothing to record. I can feel and see the sun, but I can't prove it to you in the terms you're asking for.

If you're looking for proof in the terms of age, Hinduism is considered the oldest organized religion. Other than that, finding out what you feel to be true is a personal experience. If you require scientific proof, then your path is going to most likely be an atheist one.

[thalassa]

Re: Is there a name for my beliefs?

Great Philosopher C.S. Lewis is quoted as saying : ' The unexamined Faith isn't worth believing in ' . With you saying it doesn't matter if your Beliefs are grounded in fact or not strikes me as very very odd behavior in all respects to you. Its kind of like saying :' I don't really care if its real or not...just so long as I get titillated somehow ' .

Your first problem is assuming that someone that observes practices and beliefs that can't be proven hasn't already examined that idea and rejected it as unimportant. Your second problem is in assuming that any religion can demonstrated as "real" (it can't, and the one that comes closest is the idea that there is no god, because you will never be able to "prove" a negative*, but you sure as hell can pile up a ton of evidence that demonstrates that one is unnecessary for just about everything). Your third problem is that you under-value the value of human experience.

*not that this matters--as Karl Popper said ""... in science there is no 'knowledge', in the sense in which Plato and Aristotle understood the word, in the sense which implies finality; in science, we never have sufficient reason for the belief that we have attained the truth. ... This view means, furthermore, that we have no proofs in science (excepting, of course, pure mathematics and logic). In the empirical sciences, which alone can furnish us with information about the world we live in, proofs do not occur, if we mean by 'proof' an argument which establishes once and for ever the truth of a theory."

Granted there are tons of things to believe in but doesn't it show integrity to find something to believe in that has merits, has a truthful foundation, and lines up with scientific backing to at least some degree. When you say it may not be reality to me but it is to you ---- why shouldn't we both base the reality on an objective unbiased resource ? Seems to me the neutral instrument to whether something is true or not is how well does it line up with scientific scrutiny in that : Is it testable, is it repeatable, and is it observable. ?

I say this in all respect, but, im wondering why you are willing to believe in something that is not supportable apart from how it makes you feel, or the power it gives you (which if false would be a lie) , etc... ? In short : Should how something makes us feel veto whether it is true ? Im for the latter as I want to follow and believe in something that IS the truth not only for me but is the universal global truth with scientific and historical evidences that are factual and which are objective and unbiased . Shouldn't the standard of testing be something like this and not subjective ? Thanks for sharing.

I'm a scientist. I'm also Pagan (specifically, I believe in a pantheistic view of deity but worship that deity as a soft polytheist, and intellectually, I fully acknowledge that the most reasonable position on deity is an agnostic one). I acknowledge the empirical reality of Evolution, Gravity, and Thermodynamics, Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium, etc...I certainly don't "believe" in those things--if something is supported by mountains of data, it is beyond belief. Belief is something you do when you can't verify something by concrete and objective means.

While I certainly wound't believe a religion that told me that the world was created in 7 days by a divine being 6,000 years ago, but I'm not so unimaginative or short sighted as to think that mythos is meant to be taken literally either. Saying that because Kwan Yin doesn't exist that the charity someone practices in her name and the peace they receive in her worship is somehow lesser (because its "a lie") is both shortsighted and small minded. The person that benefits from the charity carried out in her name is still helped and the peace someone feels is no less whether she exists or not. The personal and community value that comes from religion exists whether the object of said religion exists or not.

Humans evolved the capacity to imagine deity, to interact with it, and to use it to forge community bonds and to enforce community structure. We have religion because it was selected for. There are as many religions as there are peoples on this planet because ecosystems and histories and customs are diverse. Religion is a cultural response to the problems of life, formed at a time when the tools for scientific discourse weren't available. The diversity of religion exists because we exist, and its effing beautiful.

But if that happiness and peace is built on a faulty premise of a Religion that is untrue..then your happiness and peace is based on a lie . Would you agree ? What im trying to determine in my Seeking is is there a Religion/Diety/Faith that IS squarely centered on much historical and scientific evidence ... and evidence which has been determined and discovered from a separate, no-axe-to-grind, unbiased Source . Im a Person who is of a scientific rationale Mind who believes we should use our Mind , reason, and logic to test what we choose to enter into ; I could very easily enter into believing our Earth has some personal entity to it and that it bestows upon us some level of spiritual energy and even wisdom and direction.......but I could never feel satisfied if it were not provable to some level . This is the struggle ive had for quite awhile now as I continue my investigation of the many Religions and Philsophies.

No. Happiness and peace is happiness and peace whether it comes from something that is fact or fiction. And when the idea of fact or fiction is completely in the eye of the beholder, it matters even less. Looking for a religion based on evidence is like pissing in the wind. Religion (the body of rituals and customs and mythos and beliefs surrounding the idea of deity) is subjective and abstract...its the very opposite of evidence based anything. Religion isn't empirical, its metaphorical and symbolic.

Religion is simply the set of beliefs and practices based on the collective human search of humanity for meaning and significance in the experience of life, in how we view and interact with one anothe and with the world (and universe) that we inhabit so that it resonates beyond the merely physical time that we are alive into something more, as expressed by a particular culture in a particular time. The only religion that is right is the one that works for the person practicing it. And as there are countless religions in the world, every single one of them is right for someone and wrong for everyone else. I don't need my religious beliefs to be factual to be real. I'm not so petty or shallow that I don't understand the value of mythology and symbolism, and can't apply that to the deeply personal experience of living.