Reality of gods vs reality of experience

[Medusa]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

I've never stopped anyone from believing in anything they want.

We are having a discussion here. And when a dissenting view comes into focus, that doesn't mean that I am barring you from your belief. It means I'm questioning you. If that starts to make you feel uncomfy...well...you should ask yourself why. No need to get flustered over it. Or like make fonts like ginormous. k?

Creeds are fine. I have my Satanic statements and rules of the Earth. I'm following mine like you are following yours. Guess what, chicken butt? They aren't all going to be the same. Which one of us gets our way? I don't need to post them to you because I don't expect you to follow them. That's how I roll.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

Funny, I was thinking that you were feeling uncomfortable or "picked on" and was working toward alleviating discomfort.
I have held my beliefs so long I am never uncomfortable - even on the interfaith council when I was in a discussion with three Baptist ministers.
I just wanted to let you know that I wasn't trying to convert you or change the views you hold.

We both get our way. That is what it takes to get where we are going. I just posted mine to show that nothing is chiseled in stone with my belief system. It was put together to allow for growth and change.
Since I just copied it from a file it used the default font and size. I didn't realize that it might project an unintended message. I don't type very fast so it is easier to just copy that kind of stuff.
Did you consider that I might be interested in your creed? I am! I think it is important to share what information we can (without breaking oaths) to reach a point of understanding and acceptance of what we each see as the path or destination, depending on what is the important part.

I surely don't expect anyone to follow what I practice. I only expect them to be themselves. I understand that that can change from one moment to the next.

[Medusa]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

Don't assume to know what makes me uncomfortable. Don't assume I care who becomes a Satanist or not. Stop your pseudo arm chair shrink assessment of me. I'm not some lost unaware noob looking for the dhali lama's newest quip. It's riding my last nerve.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

I don't know what I did to get on your wrong side so I am going to back out of this.
I am sorry you feel I was doing anything but trying to get to know you and learn about the path you walk.

[Medusa]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

I don't know what I did to get on your wrong side so I am going to back out of this.
I am sorry you feel I was doing anything but trying to get to know you and learn about the path you walk.

We're good. I tolerate a lot of stuff up to a point. Then I got stick a claw out just to swap. It ain't a kill strike. I'd just prefer to stick to the discussion then discuss my mental level of comfortableness.

[anunitu]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

Hell,I understand the Duce completely,but thing is I really do not care one way or the other about her or your belief...way to busy ,living my own personal life...next you will be claiming to understand me..better minds than yours have broken trying to do that..

[Rae'ya]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

The current tangent ends now. Medusa and Dragonsfriend have misunderstood each other, apologised and made up. No one else needs to comment on this.

As a general note, this discussion is open to theists and atheists alike... when you bring the question of the reality vs nonreality of the gods to the table, you need to be mature enough to expect dissenting opinions to be raised. When you start talking about 'proof' and 'evidence', you need to be mature enough to expect the scientists and scientifically minded people of PF to challenge your definitions of those words. If you don't like it then agree to disagree and move on.

I'm going to be very annoyed if I have to close this thread down because people can't play nicely.

[Jimmy]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

I think the existence of a god, or gods, rests on other beliefs, such as the belief that everything living has a soul and that there exists other realms that we cannot see, including an afterlife.

[SleepingCompass]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

IMO, all gods are made up. That doesn't make them or the relationships the followers have with them any less real.

How is a relationship with something real if the 'something' isn't?

Party A: I met a soul-eating horror on the road one day. It called itself a soul eating horror and fits descriptions of soul eating horrors. Soul eating horrors are real, run for your lives!!!

Party B: I met something calling itself a soul eating horror that fits classical descriptions of soul eating horrors on the road one day. No physical evidence or reliable first hand testimony corroborrates the existence of soul eating horrors. I might have misinterpreted something, I might have been hallucinating or I might have actually met a soul eating horror. Regardless, it was an interesting experience.

Party C: I met a soul eating horror on the road one day. No there isn't direct evidence of soul eating horrors but there also aren't any telltales that convince me I was hallucinating and I got a very good look at it eating some poor bastard's soul. I might be wrong but until provided further evidence, I'm gonna trust what my eyes tell me.

Replace soul eating horror with god(s).

[thalassa]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

This differs from me in that I don’t think the gods are made up so much as they start off all as one entity but adopt different masks and personalities to better connect with us and interact with us. In essence, I think we make the masks the gods wear. Once they put on this mask though, it’s a real being in and of itself and has its own personality different from other masks. So from my view point, even though a particular god is made up by humans, it's still real and capable of a real relationship with said humans.

I only disagree with one thing that you have said here...and that is that they all start off as one entity. I don't believe that the Ultimate Divine is a literal, conscious, discrete entity. I believe that gods come from people because our interpretation of the Ultimate Divine is to see something like us or like things we know. Whatever the Ultimate Divine is, its is not same as what we call dieties/gods. And if it is anything, I believe that it is likey some sort of force (possibly with consciousness) rather than any sort of being.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

I have learned that in most religions there is an "air" deity. The primeval god has no form and the only function that is revealed is that of creation. This "air" god (one without form but of immense intellect and power) is replaced by aspects to which mankind can connect. These aspects are given forms so that we can find common ground.
In the first recorded religion Anki, the first god, (the name transliterates to "all that is") was divided into two deities. One female and one male while the residue from the division became the structure and energy upon which the universe was constructed. In the 2500 year history the "air" god was all but forgotten and replaced by a multitude of gods and goddesses.
The Hebrews worshiped an "air" god (one without form) called El. The people of El (Israel), like any other group lacked any connection to this god but could connect with aspects of the god. To keep the "one god" concept workable the term Elohim (the many faces of El) was used to incorporate aspects that individuals could use as connecting points. There are many examples of this process and in most of them the "original" god is lost to the multiple aspects that were envisioned. I don't know if there are many gods and goddesses or if there is just one that operates within our life as aspects of the whole. It is less important to me than my personal connection(s).

[sionnach]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

I would like some help with this thread.
1. Do people really believe that the deities exist in human form?
and
2. Given the actual number of potential deities that have been named and believed do people believe they are actually separate deities filling the otherworld or are they just different names for the same deities with different titles due to different languages or cultures?
The number of Celtic gods and goddess is quite amazing especially since we can guess that so many more were lost in history. Add this to the deities of the rest of Europe, Asia, Americas, Africa and Australia and you have an amazing number of potential deities if we believe they all can exist.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

1. Do people really believe that the deities exist in human form?

I'm sure that some people do, but I don't. I think they exist in their form, in their worlds. Not human and not this one.

2. Given the actual number of potential deities that have been named and believed do people believe they are actually separate deities filling the otherworld or are they just different names for the same deities with different titles due to different languages or cultures?
The number of Celtic gods and goddess is quite amazing especially since we can guess that so many more were lost in history. Add this to the deities of the rest of Europe, Asia, Americas, Africa and Australia and you have an amazing number of potential deities if we believe they all can exist.

I believe that each and every deity is an individual entity living in the Otherworlds. I believe that the Otherworlds is an umbrella term for the planes of existence that aren't this one; and that there are many, many worlds or realms within the Otherworlds. There are billions of living entities in Thisworld alone... I don't think it's odd to think that there could be billions more in the Otherworlds (not that I think there are billions of deities... just that I think there's plenty of room in the Otherworlds for all the deities and all the non-deity spirits who live there).

But not everyone believes this. Some people believe they all the same deity/ies with different names. Some believe they are not actual entities are all but are constructs of the human mind. There are lots of different opinions on this.

[Medusa]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

I want to give an opinion as an outsider. And I know it's going to be a dissenting view. But it's just my hunch and I can be totally wrong about this.

I've noticed that when pressed on the question of actual living being most theists will go with the 'it's a spiritual thing'. I think because it's the easiest way to reconcile their spiritual belief with actual facts of there not actually being a living deity on this planet thus far.

I could be very wrong. But it seems it's a good back door escape to the question of Is your deity a real being? Well yes. But YOU can't see it.


I don't mean to sound flippant. And this isn't a fact. It's just an opinion based on my experience on this very board of that question posted. Even when posted by me some time ago. No one ever actually says yeah, it's real!

Hope that covers my bases of not getting in trouble. :shy:

[Briton]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

I would like some help with this thread.
1. Do people really believe that the deities exist in human form?

Some do, there are mythologies and legends that describe flesh bearing gods, and demi-gods, who are the result of relations between a god and a human which requires the god to be at least capable of taking on human form.

and
2. Given the actual number of potential deities that have been named and believed do people believe they are actually separate deities filling the otherworld or are they just different names for the same deities with different titles due to different languages or cultures?
The number of Celtic gods and goddess is quite amazing especially since we can guess that so many more were lost in history. Add this to the deities of the rest of Europe, Asia, Americas, Africa and Australia and you have an amazing number of potential deities if we believe they all can exist.

I think some gods are the attempt to explain how life came to be, and different religions are seeking this extranatural force which isn't made of any substance (as far as I'm concerned) in different ways. Some believe a god is in charge, some, like myself, have not found an explanation in conscious effort but just recognise that such a force exists.

No offence meant to those who do believe in them, but I think a lot of gods just started out to explain phenomena or to create an agentic state. That is, if the crops failed, it's a lot easier to think something or someone was responsible and that, with offerings, you could persuade them. Even if the offering failed, you could come up with an explanation and try again. If you alone are responsible for the crops, that can be a frightening prospect. However, long cold nights and warm summer evenings gave plenty of opportunities to concoct stories that go beyond explaining phenomena. Whether these stories were just designed to entertain, or they gave a background context that ancient people genuinely believed, we may never know.

Again, just my opinion.