Sorry if this offends but is Druidism 'druid' in anything other than name? Genuine question as I can't see what they would draw from.
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Druidism's foundations
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Druidism's foundations
I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
But that day you know I left my money
And I thought of you only
All that copper glowing fineTags: None
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sea witch
- Oct 2005
- 11651
- relational theophysis and bioregional witchery
- coastal Georgia
- *a little bad taste is like a nice dash of paprika*
Re: Druidism's foundations
Well yeah, the question is actually worded in a way that is fairly offensive...simply by virtue of using the "sorry....but" format that usually indicates that someone is well aware that someone is going to be offensive and is actually not sorry. Honestly, it not bad--I've seen the question put in ways that are much worse.
The problem is that you seem to be conflating authenticity with validity, as if a lack of the former negates the latter. It's an important nuance that is the source of most of the infighting among Pagans--most people don't understand it when they start out, but over time, some people get it and sadly, some people never do (and sadly they seem to all be BNPs).
Put most simple, Druidry (or Druidism) is a spiritual tradition/philosophy and/or religion that emphasizes the divinity in Nature that is inspired by Celtic mythology and inspired by ideas what we know of the Ancient Druids and/or the later Druid Revival.
With that being said, there are two main Druid groups (there are many more, but most of them model one or the other or are a hybrid of the two), the OBOD and ADF:
The OBOD is based on Druid Revivalism. It is more of a masonic style organization (one can be of any religious faith) than a dogmatic religious organization that originated in the UK. I would say its more concerned with the philosophy of a reimagined and recreated romanticism of Druidry.
ADF is a PIE reconstruction-centered tradition that looks to a number of sources from archeology to linguistics to UPG. It is a religious organization that espouses hard polytheism and worships the numinous as the gods, the ancestors, and the spirits of nature-- though there is a wide variety of views and personal practices within its ranks.
This is from an older essay by the ADF on the origins of Druidry (the same essay I link in my blog post) in these groups:
Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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Re: Druidism's foundations
Originally posted by thalassa View PostThe OBOD is based on Druid Revivalism. It is more of a masonic style organization (one can be of any religious faith) than a dogmatic religious organization that originated in the UK. I would say its more concerned with the philosophy of a reimagined and recreated romanticism of Druidry.
ADF is a PIE reconstruction-centered tradition that looks to a number of sources from archeology to linguistics to UPG. It is a religious organization that espouses hard polytheism and worships the numinous as the gods, the ancestors, and the spirits of nature-- though there is a wide variety of views and personal practices within its ranks.Once a man, like the sea I raged;
Once a woman, like the earth I gave;
And there is in fact more earth than sea.
Genesis lyric
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Re: Druidism's foundations
Originally posted by thalassa View PostWell yeah, the question is actually worded in a way that is fairly offensive...simply by virtue of using the "sorry....but" format that usually indicates that someone is well aware that someone is going to be offensive and is actually not sorry. Honestly, it not bad--I've seen the question put in ways that are much worse.
The problem is that you seem to be conflating authenticity with validity, as if a lack of the former negates the latter. It's an important nuance that is the source of most of the infighting among Pagans--most people don't understand it when they start out, but over time, some people get it and sadly, some people never do (and sadly they seem to all be BNPs).
Put most simple, Druidry (or Druidism) is a spiritual tradition/philosophy and/or religion that emphasizes the divinity in Nature that is inspired by Celtic mythology and inspired by ideas what we know of the Ancient Druids and/or the later Druid Revival.
With that being said, there are two main Druid groups (there are many more, but most of them model one or the other or are a hybrid of the two), the OBOD and ADF:
The OBOD is based on Druid Revivalism. It is more of a masonic style organization (one can be of any religious faith) than a dogmatic religious organization that originated in the UK. I would say its more concerned with the philosophy of a reimagined and recreated romanticism of Druidry.
ADF is a PIE reconstruction-centered tradition that looks to a number of sources from archeology to linguistics to UPG. It is a religious organization that espouses hard polytheism and worships the numinous as the gods, the ancestors, and the spirits of nature-- though there is a wide variety of views and personal practices within its ranks.
Again, genuine apologies for my poor wording to anyone who considers themselves druidic.I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
But that day you know I left my money
And I thought of you only
All that copper glowing fine
Comment
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Re: Druidism's foundations
I don't think your question was offensive. It can be best answered by quoting Philip Shallcrass (British Druid Order):
Some [Druids] are overtly pagan, some are avowedly Christian, others try to steer a path between the two, others simply say that being a Druid has nothing whatever to do with religion.
Fortunately, Druidry seems to find room for many faiths within it. This is partly because Druids are unusually open and tolerant in their outlook, and partly because we know so little about what Druids got up to in the past that we are free to concoct just about anything and call it Druidry today.
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sea witch
- Oct 2005
- 11651
- relational theophysis and bioregional witchery
- coastal Georgia
- *a little bad taste is like a nice dash of paprika*
Re: Druidism's foundations
Originally posted by Briton View PostAgain, genuine apologies for my poor wording to anyone who considers themselves druidic.
I would only say that a claim to authenticity which isn't there is disingenuous.
FWIW, in the established organizations a false claim to authenticity (a direct Druid lineage of some sort) is fairly uncommon (it was more common about 20+ years ago, when I started out as a Pagan).
But you will occasionally run into versions of "my family has been doing this since time immemorial and its a secret *real* Druid tradition that we've kept alive since the advent of Christianity". I have never met someone that claims this and is able to offer discussion on it with any sort of believability. Once again it comes to a numbers game--is it possible that an unbroken family lineage passed down for 700 years, but highly unlikely, particularly with as many people claim this heritage (its sort of like the 6 people I know that claim to have been Cleopatra in a former life...). If a small handful of people from the same one or two families were claiming this, and had some sort of corroborative documentation or heirlooms, I could maybe buy a family tradition passed down from the Druid Revival, or a family folk magic tradition passed off as Druidry, or (because this used to be the thing to do in Pagan circles) a 2-3 (maybe 4) generation tradition that was passed on as being older than it really is. But Ye Olde Authentic Druidry has (IMO) almost no chance of being a historical fact.Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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Re: Druidism's foundations
Originally posted by thalassa View PostIf you read a bit about the history of Paganism in general, particularly in terms of the Druid Revival and much later, the development of Wicca, and the bits that took place in the various magical traditions in between (traditions that eventually coalesced into contemporary Paganism), I think you will find a very different attitude about the importance of authentic history--mostly that that romanticized, reimagined symbolic history was either thought to be authentic (and based on bad information for which they did not know otherwise at the time) or was known not to be factual, but was considered Truth in a way that the truth never could be... :/ I don't think you would find many people that thought a false claim to authenticity was disingenuous in the early days of contemporary Paganisms the same way we do now..
FWIW, in the established organizations a false claim to authenticity (a direct Druid lineage of some sort) is fairly uncommon (it was more common about 20+ years ago, when I started out as a Pagan).
But you will occasionally run into versions of "my family has been doing this since time immemorial and its a secret *real* Druid tradition that we've kept alive since the advent of Christianity". I have never met someone that claims this and is able to offer discussion on it with any sort of believability. Once again it comes to a numbers game--is it possible that an unbroken family lineage passed down for 700 years, but highly unlikely, particularly with as many people claim this heritage (its sort of like the 6 people I know that claim to have been Cleopatra in a former life...). If a small handful of people from the same one or two families were claiming this, and had some sort of corroborative documentation or heirlooms, I could maybe buy a family tradition passed down from the Druid Revival, or a family folk magic tradition passed off as Druidry, or (because this used to be the thing to do in Pagan circles) a 2-3 (maybe 4) generation tradition that was passed on as being older than it really is. But Ye Olde Authentic Druidry has (IMO) almost no chance of being a historical fact.
Surely Gods get bored with the same form of worship over thousands of years too?
Go Go Origen!
I'm always looking for new and cool book and food recommendations, feel free to message me ;P
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sea witch
- Oct 2005
- 11651
- relational theophysis and bioregional witchery
- coastal Georgia
- *a little bad taste is like a nice dash of paprika*
Re: Druidism's foundations
Originally posted by Mootipi View PostI find historical correctness and authenticity in re-constructive practise a funny concept; if we actually performed pagan religious practice exactly as those before us did, I can imagine at least one instance where a practitioner is thrown in a mental asylum. Probably something to do with bloodletting or settling a feud by combat over someone killing a tree. (I am vaguely aware this has probably happened somewhere at somepoint).
Surely Gods get bored with the same form of worship over thousands of years too?
And I absolutely cannot fathom a mindset that says that I can't learn algebra or Latin because doing so will overheat my brain, which will overheat my blood, which will cook my ovaries, and make me unfit as a woman. I absolutely cannot fathom living in a country without child abuse laws (the first child abuse case wasn't tried until 1874 as an animal cruelty case by the Humane Society of NY). And the idea that people are chattel is such an anathema, I can't even begin to imagine how people actually justified in their mind as a point of view. And I would question the morals and/or sanity of anyone that thought we should go back to that.
Add a couple hundred or a 1000 year or more, and I don't think it gets any better. The Greek and Roman religions are part of a culture that systematically subjugated women...yes, even in Sparta (Spartan women were given the relatively progressive (for Ancient Greece) freedom and education so they could continue to be good breeders of Spartan men, not because of some early sense of equality). The Norse religion is part of a culture that thought nothing of systematically raiding, raping, and enslaving as a seasonal sport. The Celtic religions are part of cultures that practiced human sacrifice. Sure, women-hating, going a-Viking, and dumping people in bogs aren't the entirety of those cultures, and like any society, they have stuff they did right and well too...but cutting the wheat from the chaff changes the context and the meaning of the practice completely. Pretending otherwise seems just as disingenuous to me as lying about the authenticity of a practice would be .
This is a view that has, of course, gotten me in hot water with some more fractious recons. Which is fine...it's a reason why I'm not a recon and not a reason why I expect other people *not* to be a recon (hopefully I worded that in a way that makes sense). I don't expect my rationale for or against something to be someone else's rationale...everyone has different priorities and values when it comes to what they decide to do or not to do.
And yes, if gods are ever shown to be actual discrete literal entities with distinct personalities and emotions, etc...I fully expect that we will find that they change with the times too...possibly just because I like to picture Ares drag racing.Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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Re: Druidism's foundations
All good points. We view actions of the past with some horror, but more importantly so did they about times before them. Equality didn't start in the 20th century, morality has changed and, in my opinion, improved. Albeit slowly. The idea of going backward is not what they did. Of course, we may revive practices from the past, but it's about sorting we're renewing it, not reinventing the wheel. The same should go for our religion, faith or practices. Pagans were frequently bloody people. But even a broken clock is right twice a day and they may provide good ideas. I wouldn't bring medieval sanitation back, so full on reconstruction seems baby, and I don't think any recons truly recon a culture. I bet they like toilet paper and flat roads.I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
But that day you know I left my money
And I thought of you only
All that copper glowing fine
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Re: Druidism's foundations
Originally posted by Briton View PostI wouldn't bring medieval sanitation back, so full on reconstruction seems baby, and I don't think any recons truly recon a culture. I bet they like toilet paper and flat roads.Once a man, like the sea I raged;
Once a woman, like the earth I gave;
And there is in fact more earth than sea.
Genesis lyric
Comment
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Re: Druidism's foundations
'seems baby' I'm not even sure what that was a typo of.I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
But that day you know I left my money
And I thought of you only
All that copper glowing fine
Comment
-
sea witch
- Oct 2005
- 11651
- relational theophysis and bioregional witchery
- coastal Georgia
- *a little bad taste is like a nice dash of paprika*
Re: Druidism's foundations
Originally posted by Briton View Post'seems baby' I'm not even sure what that was a typo of.
lol, I get some awesome autocorrects on my phone and kindle sometimes...
I don't think any recons truly recon a culture
My point (maybe poorly illustrated) was more that we can't truly reconstruct a religion, because we can't truly reconstruct a culture (its my personal opinion that I wouldn't even want to try), or even truly understand it (maybe grok is a better, though invented, word for here). We can be so inspired by the religion and the culture that we wear the correct garments, recite the correct words, perform the correct motions and actions at the correct times, know and accept the correct facts, (assuming, in the best case scenarios, that we can actually find all of this information complete and intact), but even if we are doing all of these things, we are simply using old ideas to practice a new religion that we have created.
Personally, I prefer to look at the past (and the present) and say, hey...that looks like it works. What is the idea, the context behind it, and how is it used? I may or may not adapt it for my own practice. If not, I keep it in my mental filing cabinet incase I ever need to pull it out again. I prefer to avoid the appeal to antiquity trap. But I am unabashedly, unflinchingly, and unrepentantly eclectic.Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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Re: Druidism's foundations
Yeah I kind of went off on a tangent, I knew what you meant. That's what I'm thinking. Those guys might be on to something doing things the way they did. Doesn't mean they definitely did, or even that they were the only ones onto something. I would be eclectic for the benefit of those who went before me who were no doubt Heathen, Iron Age and even Christian. It's not that I believe the things they did, or that I'm trying to hedge my bets, but ancestor veneration is not really veneration when you're only doing what fulfilled you, rather than fulfilled them. I'd have no problem having a mjolnir, cross and [whatever is significant to the Iron Age Brits] all on my shrine amongst other things. This doesn't mean I believe in, revere, or worship Jesus, Odin or Herne, but that I recognize such was important to them. This thread is going off topic, but I think the OP has been answered so this can go on if anyone wants...I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
But that day you know I left my money
And I thought of you only
All that copper glowing fine
Comment
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Re: Druidism's foundations
Originally posted by thalassa View PostWell yeah, the question is actually worded in a way that is fairly offensive
Sure, women-hating, going a-Viking, and dumping people in bogs aren't the entirety of those cultures, and like any society, they have stuff they did right and well too...but cutting the wheat from the chaff changes the context and the meaning of the practice completely. Pretending otherwise seems just as disingenuous to me as lying about the authenticity of a practice would be. This is a view that has, of course, gotten me in hot water with some more fractious recons. Which is fine
Cultures draw on religion, but religion is not a manifestation of a culture. Culture is about society, religion is about gods. The Hellenic gods did not command the Greeks to hate women (which they didn't) and I doubt that the Norse gods commanded people to practice piracy. The concept of gods who dictate lifestyles is Abrahamic.
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sea witch
- Oct 2005
- 11651
- relational theophysis and bioregional witchery
- coastal Georgia
- *a little bad taste is like a nice dash of paprika*
Re: Druidism's foundations
Originally posted by DavidMcCann View PostHaving smacked the OP for being offensive (how many Druids here were offended?) you then post this:
Do as I say, not as I do? For the record, I am offended by being called a liar and having my religion compared to a re-enactment society
Cultures draw on religion, but religion is not a manifestation of a culture. Culture is about society, religion is about gods. The Hellenic gods did not command the Greeks to hate women (which they didn't) and I doubt that the Norse gods commanded people to practice piracy. The concept of gods who dictate lifestyles is Abrahamic.
Religion is part of culture. It does not exist in a vacuum of only people+gods. The correlation between a head god that cheats on his wife and rapes women and a culture that treats women like crap shouldn't be surprising. You cannot have a historically accurate recreation of the religion without the historical context of the culture it formed from. You can certainly have an incredibly detailed religion that is based on as much historical information at you can find, but without the culture, you have not constructed that same religion over again (the literal definition of re-constructing something again). You have made something different and something new that is rooted in your interpretation of something old.
Most recons get that nuance. Some don't.Last edited by thalassa; 18 Nov 2015, 12:21.Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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