Edda Discussion: Völuspá

[Rae'ya]

Aww poor you, I hope you get better soon

By all means copy away, though if you use it anywhere exept privately please credit me. It's mostly that I don't want you catching flack for my mistakes.
The original poem text is copy/pasted from here http://etext.old.no/Bugge/voluspa/voluspa1.html. The translation is as literal as I have been able to manage, though I am by no means fluent in Old Norse. At least, I wouldn't take upon myself to compose anything in it. But between the knowledge I do have, two translation (a Danish and a Swedish) plus the fact that I am fluent in all three Nordic languages - which definitely gives me a head start, and an English-Old Norse dictionary I have dug up, I would like to think that it is a decent translation.
The largest problem is that in many cases there isn't an exact word in modern English or one that is even close, despite the fact that English have roots in Old Norse as well. Actually English should be called Anglo-Saxon so much as it should be called Anglo-Norse, many of the basic everyday words such as 'I', 'you', 'we', 'they', 'could', 'should', 'would', 'horse', 'horn', 'window', just to give a few examples, have roots in Old Norse. So I have to give either an approximate translation or use several words, that's why such things as meter and rhyme have gone out the window in this.

About the English-Old Norse dictionary, I have it in a pdf file. Though I've found it on-line it is, as far as I can tell and concidering that it was posedt on a university website, University of York in the UK I think it was, it appears to be a decent one. If you want I can hunt down the link to it again? It would give you a place to start.

Urg the website you linked doesn't show up in my browser properly... it's got all sorts of lovely useless triangle symbols instead of letters and the formatting is terrible lol

If you could find a link for that pdf that would be much appreciated. I did used to have a really ancient Old Norse language book on pdf but it was lost when my laptop was stolen and I can't remember where I got it from. I do have someone's Old Norse-English dictionary but it's not extensive and has nothing about grammar or syntax or anything in it. I've managed to put together pronunciation from various different sources, which is hard when you speak Australian English rather than American or UK because you can't use the examples properly lol. I'm lucky I have an American husband who has a gift for languages.

[Rae'ya]

16. Alf and Yngvi, | Eikinskjaldi,
Fjalar and Frosti, | Fith and Ginnar;
So for all time | shall the tale be known,
The list of all | the forbears of Lofar.

Another of the added stanzas from last week's verses. Not much to say there.

17. Then from the throng | did three come forth,
From the home of the gods, | the mighty and gracious;
Two without fate | on the land they found,
Ask and Embla, | empty of might.

This stanza I think should rightly follow stanza 9, before the catalogue of dwarf names. Stanza 9 talks about the gods assembling to decide who should create the race of dwarves. Then we move onto the creation of man in stanza 17.

It's possible that stanza 9 is part of the interpolated section, a sort of introduction to the dwarf names, but I can't say that I'm convinced of that. I think that it's likely stanza 9 is legit, but that a bit has been lost between it and stanza 17. Perhaps that's why the dwarf names were inserted there, because the compiler didn't have the correct verses and so he chucked in a fragment that made sense to him? We have to remember that the people who actually wrote these poems down were largely Christian monks copying bits and pieces of broken manuscripts and dictated oral poems.

This is also where things start to jump around a bit, which can be confusing if you don't know anything about the mythology. It could be that there are sections missing, or that the stanzas are out of order. It could also be that our translations are just not totally correct, which makes it look like there's bits missing. We have to remember that this is supposedly the Volva proving her knowledge of past events to Othinn so that he will believe her prophecy of future events.

- Three came forward from the crowd
Pretty self explanatory

- The mighty and gracious from Asgardhr
We presume he means Asgardhr here... I'd have to see the Old Norse version to be certain. Asgardhr is the home of the Aesir, and the Aesir are mentioned in a previous stanza in the Old Norse that MoonRaven has been putting up. In a previous stanza they mentioned Ithavoll, which is in Asgardhr, so it stands to reason that even if they don't say 'Asgarghr' in the Old Norse that is what they mean. 'Mighty and gracious' suggests that it's three of some renown. I find it interesting that we are a 'throng' here and that the Volva specifies that three beings of renown from Asgardhr come forth... perhaps the throng is not just Aesir? We also jump awkwardly into the finding of Ask and Embla, so perhaps that is further evidence that there's been a bit missed prior to this stanza? Perhaps these three are not coming from the throng of the gods' assembly (as would be suggested if we have this follow stanza 9) but from some other throng?

- They found two without fate on the land
- Ask and Embla, who were empty of might
'Without fate' means without wyrd or orlog... without any meaningful sense of life. 'Empty of might' means without personal power and ability. I'd like to see the Old Norse for these last two lines, particular the words that were translated into 'fate' and 'might'. These are concepts central to the Northern Tradition soul complex, and I suspect the Old Norse terms are 'orlog' and 'megin'. The lines together basically mean that they found two 'beings' that had no purpose or personal power. Ask and Embla are usually translated as Ash and Elm, and are considered to be the first two human beings. Opinions vary as to whether they were actual branches of wood that were found on the land, or whether they were some sort of primal mewling creature without shape or soul.

- They didn't have any soul or sense.
- No warmth, movement or lively complexion
Again, I really want to see the Old Norse for this entire verse, because I have a feeling that most of these words will translate into the various soul complex terms... ond, odhr, and litr will be in there, I imagine. Basically these two stanzas are telling us that the beings had no soul or life or purpose, and are giving us an idea of what actually constitutes 'life' in the Northern Traditions.

- Othinn gave them soul, Hoenir gave them sense
- Lothur gave them warmth and lively complexion
From memory the first two should be 'ond' and 'odhr' in Old Norse. Ond is the breath of life, the spark of life, the part that quickens a soul or spirit into being. Othr is divine inspiration, ecstatic force, our connection with deity. I find it interesting that it translated here as 'sense'. Of course, I could be wrong about ond and othr and I shouldn't speculate 'til I see the Old Norse lol. I have a feeling that the 'goodly hue' will be litr, which I've translated as 'lively complexion' because it means colour or complexion and is an indicator of vitality and the energy of life. Not the breath of life itself, which is soul, spirit, magick... but the actual mundane energy and vitality of a person. Basically these lines say that Othinn, Hoenir and Lothur breathed life and soul into the beings. By inference they also now have orlog, because they are now living, breathing entities.

19. An ash I know, | Yggdrasil its name,
With water white | is the great tree wet;
Thence come the dews | that fall in the dales,
Green by Urth's well | does it ever grow.

- I know an ash tree who's name is Yggdrasil
Self explanatory... now we skip to talking about Yggdrasil, the world tree. It's assumed that this is the same tree that she mentions in stanza 2, The Volva may be appealing to Othinn's ego here by naming the tree this time. Yggdrasil means 'steed of Ygg' and 'Ygg' is one of the bynames or heiti of Othinn. Is this the only name for the World Tree? I don't think so, it's just the one that an Aesir-centric culture grabbed and continued using. It's the one that we are handed down. Personally I tend to think that the Tree does not have one true 'name', but then I've never really researched it in depth. I have half a mind to go through the Old Norse and pick out every mention of the Tree and see what I come up with.

- The great tree is watered by white waters
- And is where the dew that falls in the valley comes from
- It forever grows green by Urdh's well
This all says that the tree is watered from the magickal waters from Urdharbrunnr (Well of Urdh). There are three wells beneath Yggdrasil... Hvergemlir in Niflheimr, from which all the rivers of the Nine World flow; Mimirsbrunnr in Jotunheimr, where Mimir's head now lives; and Urdharbrunnr in Asgardhr, the well of fate. Urdharbrunnr waters Yggdrasil, and this stanza also says that it creates the dew that falls in the valley. The Nornir also smear mud on the roots of Yggdrasil in order to heal the destruction caused by Nidhogg, but that's a different stanza lol.

20. Thence come the maidens | mighty in wisdom,
Three from the dwelling | down 'neath the tree;
Urth is one named, | Verthandi the next,--
On the wood they scored,-- | and Skuld the third.
Laws they made there, and life allotted
To the sons of men, and set their fates.

This stanza may be out of order... there's a theory that it should come after stanza 8, because these are the three maidens that came from Jotunheim. It may have been moved here because the compiler thought it better to put them next to the Yggdrasil stanza. It could also be that the Jotnar maids in stanza 8 are not the Nornir at all and that this stanza is where it should be. I'm not sure what I think... stanza 8 infers that the three Jotnar maids are responsible for the Aesir learning about greed etc, which doesn't feel right to me. I also do feel that there is something missing between stanzas 8 and 9, I'm just not 100% sure that this is it. It could be, because stanza 8 could be referring to some Garden of Eden type of idyllic ignorance that the Aesir had, then the Nornir came and showed them about orlog and wyrd (which is an Anglo Saxon word, not Old Norse), which ruined their ignorance in the same way that the apple ruined that of Adam and Eve. Having said that though, maybe that section is corrupted by the Christian monks who wrote it down, or the Christianisation of the Northern people before it was written down. Anyway...

- Then came the wise and mighty maidens
- Three of them came from their home beneath the tree
Three mighty and wise maidens came from beneath the tree... the Nornir no longer live in Jotunheim, they live in Asgardhr near Urdharbrunnr, at the root of Yggrasil. Does this support or argue whether this stanza belongs with stanza 8? Hard to say.

- Urdh, Verdhandi and Skuld were their names
- They scored the wood (of Yggdrasil)
This part may be an interpolation... the stanza has too many lines, and these are incomplete and don't have the right meter. Either way, these are the names of the three Nornir.

- They hand out life and make laws
- And decide the fate of men
The Nornir do several things... They aren't just the keepers of 'fate'. Part of this is my own UPG, taught to me directly by the Nornir Themselves during my visits with Them. It is supported by the Lore, but expanded and clarified by what the Nornir have shown me, if that makes sense. Verdhandi spins the Threads that are the lives of each person... we each have a Thread, and it is made up of the recycled Threads of those who have come before us. The Threads are woven into the Pattern, what most Northern Traditioners and Heathens call Wyrd... this is the tapestry of everything that is happening and has happened. Skuld plots out the future Pattern, and an individual's 'fate' is dependant on the decisions that they are making in life, the obligations that are carried over from any previous lives, the obligations that are carried over from ancestors, and the whims of any major spirits or deities that the person is sworn to. It's not a set destiny, but ever changing and changeable... it is possible to change the course Skuld has plotted out for you, except in some circumstances where events and choices have funnelled you into a single course of action, or where some deity has put their foot down and petitioned Skuld to make a 'no matter what' sort of event. There are some events that the Nornir will not allow to be changed or avoided... events that are important for the bigger picture, which not even the gods can avoid. Skuld also cuts the Thread when we die. Urdhr records the Pattern that has happened in the very fibre of the world... in the roots of Yggdrasil, then unravels the past Pattern, separates the used Threads, combs them out and recombines them to form the fibre for Verdhandi to spin into new Threads.

One question for now, who has v.20 got 6 lines? But I'm sure someone was going to answer that anyway!

Bellows' footnotes say that lines 3 and 4 are probably later additions, hence why there are more lines than there should be and the meter is different.

[hlewagastir]

Next lot 'o verses comin' up!

16. Alf and Yngvi, | Eikinskjaldi,
Fjalar and Frosti, | Fith and Ginnar;
So for all time | shall the tale be known,
The list of all | the forbears of Lofar.

More dwarves...

17. Then from the throng | did three come forth,
From the home of the gods, | the mighty and gracious;
Two without fate | on the land they found,
Ask and Embla, | empty of might.

I do not like the word "throng" as a translation for . While "throng" (to my understanding) means something akin to (random/unspecified) crowd of people, points more to a following, band, troops, aid. Slocum and Krause translate (in this specific context) as "retinue", while Hollanders translation is "(here translated as "throng") refers to the other gods, or the gods a group.

Askr means "ash-tree". This of cause ties into the special place of the ash in ON mythology (fx. Yggdrasil and Thor being saved by one on his way to is also recorded among (mythological) ancestors of the AS royal house of (in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, I think).
The etymology of Embla is a tad more complicated, but it might relate to almr ("elm"), or possibly to Geek "vine, liana" - which might play on an analogy in IE areas between making fire by drilling (soft wood, fx vine, set alight by drilling into it with harder wood, fx ash) and intercourse.
Simeks dictionary is my main source for this bit - if you need specifics please say so.

"empty of might." is an interesting translation of , which basically means that they are "fateless" - they lack . Then one can engage in a discussion on what means, but I think both fate and destiny will suffice.

I have to do other stuff now, but I might look through the others later...

[hlewagastir]

Next lot 'o verses comin' up!

Going to throw in an ON version here...
is also connected to this. From what I have read, probably means something along the lines of being in an impulsive, eager, furious and intensive state of mind - whether out of anger or happiness (Kure, Faulkes, Simek). The word seems to have several different semantic aspects, and might be connected to knowledge as well, so translating it with "mind", "sense" or "reason" (Simek) makes sense to me (pun intended).
Interesting enough Slocum and Krause (S/K) translate as "mental faculties, voice", and then goes for "voice" as the appropriate translation in this verse. I guess having a voice (and using it) can be considered a manifestation of having mental faculties.

: litr means "looks, appearance; color(ing)" (S/K). IOW the "good color/look", which probably should be seen as opposed to the pale or black colour of a corpse (non-living).

signifies that the gods give them pulse - which is another tell-tale sign of somebody being alive.

To sum up a bit; IMO the point of this verse is partly to show the origin of man, that gods were the origin of man and that they can give life, and partly to establish what sets living, willful (or mind-full, if you will) beings apart from dead and/or non-willful beings - the last part is the key to how the words and the verse should be interpreted (IMO).
If anyone got any commentaries or questions please ask away

Literature: Faulkes and Barnes (2007); A New Introduction to Old Norse. Simek (1993); Dictionary of Northern Mythology. Kure (2010); I Begyndelsen var Skriget - Vikingetidens Myter om Skabelsen. Krause and Slocum;

[Optimistic discord]

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More dwarves...



I do not like the word "throng" as a translation for . While "throng" (to my understanding) means something akin to (random/unspecified) crowd of people, points more to a following, band, troops, aid. Slocum and Krause translate (in this specific context) as "retinue", while Hollanders translation is "(here translated as "throng") refers to the other gods, or the gods a group.

Askr means "ash-tree". This of cause ties into the special place of the ash in ON mythology (fx. Yggdrasil and Thor being saved by one on his way to is also recorded among (mythological) ancestors of the AS royal house of (in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, I think).
The etymology of Embla is a tad more complicated, but it might relate to almr ("elm"), or possibly to Geek "vine, liana" - which might play on an analogy in IE areas between making fire by drilling (soft wood, fx vine, set alight by drilling into it with harder wood, fx ash) and intercourse.
Simeks dictionary is my main source for this bit - if you need specifics please say so.

"empty of might." is an interesting translation of , which basically means that they are "fateless" - they lack . Then one can engage in a discussion on what means, but I think both fate and destiny will suffice.

I have to do other stuff now, but I might look through the others later...

Throng: As a word it does not describe the relationship of the group , more its purpose. A throng is, dense and forceful, pushing.
Its meaning has become diluted over time like a lot of words

[hlewagastir]

Throng: As a word it does not describe the relationship of the group , more its purpose. A throng is, dense and forceful, pushing.
Its meaning has become diluted over time like a lot of words

[Rae'ya]

[MoonRaven]

gandr usually means something akin to "magic staff" (also used for "magic" and "staff" separately)? Simek translates

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I am so lazy... lol

I really should type the Old Norse words with the correct characters, but I just skip the accents and transliterate the thorn and eth characters when I'm typing on forums. Where do you guys copy your characters from? Sometimes when I'm not lazy I'll type it in Word and then copy and paste it here, but that takes so much effort.

Plus I've never been on a forum when there are so many of us before... I'm used to being the only Northern Traditioner. Here at least the effort to use the correct characters would be appreciated. I shouldn't be so lazy.

I copy from that website I mentioned. I far too lazy to find the right characters too, so if I couldn't copy/paste I would be transliterating too.

[hlewagastir]

The translation of the Gand in Gandalf I have from a argument of the meaning of the name Jormundgand (the Midgaard Serpent) who, one of the above writers (I think it is Jochens but I wouldn't swear to it) argue could be translated into shining ring, or shining might, then delves into a debate about the role of the Serpent in Old Norse mythology. So that is where I have it from. Though a) the author might be wrong and b) I never considered that the Gand in Gandalf and the Gand in Jormungand might not be the same.

The Poetic Edda - Essays on Old Norse Mythologygandr

One thing I dislike, with the whole Gandalf thing, though is the translation of alfr into elf. It might be the right thing to do in a Tolkien context, and yes I have done so myself mostly because I didn't really know what else to translated it into that didn't demand lengthy explanations (no one can accuse me of not being inconsisten as hell). But I find that doing so gives people the wrong ideas about how the Old Norse view, or most probably viewed, these beings, if folklore is anything to go by. While the dwarves are very much akin to the dwarves of Tolkien, the alfr of old have little to do with his elves. Rather they were small and dark and seem to have more in common the Irish Sidhe or Tuatha de Danan than Tolkiens inventions. In some cases it appears that the 'distinction' between dwarf (which might have been called svart aflr, or dark elf) and elves (which might have been simply alfr, or 'light elves') appears to be that the former lived beneath the ground while the other lived in rocks and trees above. Also the svart alfr appears to have been somewhat more self-centred and greedy, while the latter were more whimsical, but then that just made it easier if you wanted something from a svart alfr. After all you could just buy or bribe, while getting something from an alfr could be much more tricky.

P.S. Can I ask you something? Where are you from? I couldn't help but notice the book in Danish on your source list and I so rarely meet anyone out here who understands my native tongue, so naturally I'm curious It's perfectly fine if you don't want to answer, though if you just don't want to answer in public you can always send me a PM.

Sure; born, bread and living in Denmark. If you need practice we can correspond over PM

P.P.S. (Is anyone else getting Hobbit feeling here? ) About the not being able to post links you need to have a minimum of I think it's 15 post, not counting the games section, to do so. It's to prevent all and sundry from making an account and then start spamming. Helps the mods keep order

Thanks. Fair enough, sounds like a reasonable countermeasure. Yeah I really look forward to the next instalment, the last one was really entertaining!

P.P.P.S. (Last one I promise. This is getting ridiculous) I will go into more detail about the (possible) meaning of Jormungand when we get to the beast. I am currently in the process of re-ordering and re-reading many of the books on my 'Old Norse mythology list' and I'm hoping that the argument I have written down will pop up somewhere so I am able to give proper reference.

Cool, looking forward to reading it!

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[Ula]

[MoonRaven]

Sure; born, bread and living in Denmark. If you need practice we can correspond over PM

I'm Danish too I just didn't want to assume you were since I have met plenty of people on-line who speaks, or at least reads, the language but is of a different nationality.

[MaskedOne]

[MoonRaven]

http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/language/E...-Old_Norse.pdf It proved to be York, Canada not York, UK. Meh. (Damn you colonists for confusing the issue )


, while the earlier 'two without fate' refers to the

Ask veit ek standa,
heitir Yggdrasill

Ash I know stands
named Yggdrasill
it is sprinkled (showered)
by the white water;
whence comes (forms) the dew
that falls in the valleys;
stands vibrantly green
[over] Urds well

Nothing to add that haven't been said already.

margs vitandi

Then came maidens
they who knew much (those who knew many things)
three from the hall
which under the tree lies (stands)
Urd [fate, become] one was named
another Verdandi [happening, becoming]
carving in wood,
Skuld [debt, future, what must be] is the third
Laws the laid (established)
Lives (fates) allotted
Those born of time (literally it probably should be: those carried by the waves [of time])
spoke (said) the destinies [of men]

There have already been said much about this verse but I'm just going to add a bit about the three Nornir.
First off, I've always wondered, though I have never seen it brought up else where, if the three 'thursa meyar' from verse 9 and the three Nornir were the same. They could fall into the category thursa since they're neither god, humans or animals, and as I said thursa is often used as a form of catch all category for everything else. Plus Voluspa have before show that it is not necessarily 100% chronological. Don't have an answer to it, just something I've privately wondered.
About the name of the three Nornir I have supplied their closest translation into modern English in sharp brackets immediately following each name. I have done this because though the three are often said to be past, present and future, that isn't quite on mark.
Urd's name, who is often said to be the past, means something like become, that from which all takes its beginning. For me she has always stood for a sort of combination of social and genetic heritage, that part of our past and early life over which we have no choice or control, but have to deal with. Often this heritage determines our lives to a great extent, if you were born to an alcoholic mother and none existing father in a bad neighbourhood you will likely have a very different life than if you were born to well situated, loving parents on the right side of the tracks. Not that you can't get a good life if you were born in the first circumstances or go bad if your started out in the latter set, I'm just saying that odds are against you and you are going to have to fight a lot harder.
Verdandi means something along the lines of either happening or becoming and is therefore often seen as 'the present'. For me she is a person's own actions, what we do with what we are given, how we deal with what is. So to me there is also a 'past' aspect to her in the actions I have taken in the past.
Skuld almost literally means debt, though another interpretation might be that-which-must-be. Between Urd and Verdandi, the situation we are put in and our actions we incur a 'debt' to the future, that is we makes certain choices in a given situation and have to deal with the consequences. If you spend your teens and twenties nicking cars and selling drugs you'll have a different future than if you spend those years in school working hard to get yourself away from this situation.
I have never seen the three Nornir, and their carvings/spinnings, as predestination in the classical sense but rather as I said above the circumstances we are born into and how we deal with them.

One final thing one these three. Here they are said to carve the destinies into wood while everywhere else they are said to be spinners. Personally I have always seen them as carvers and think that the spinning image is written in from Greek mythology where the fates are said to spin/weave the fates of men. Also the image of carving fits better with my idea of 'fate', that is one can once a cut is made you cannot 'unmake' it, even if you file it down and polish the place over there will always be an indication of where the cut was made for those who known where it was even if others cannot see it. Just as in life, you cannot 'undo' an action, you can try to repair the mistakes you made, but you cannot make it so that they never happened in the first place.



Right, enough for now. I'm not sure how much I'll be able to participate over the next weeks, work if fairly busy and my arthritis is playing bl**dy havoc so I'm doped silly just to stay upright. I'll post my translations but how much else I'll have to say I'm not sure.

[Heka]

NEXT! I'm glad I'm late, or else I would've beaten MoonRaven!

21. The war I remember, | the first in the world,
When the gods with spears | had smitten Gollveig,
And in the hall | of Hor had burned her,
Three times burned, | and three times born,
Oft and again, | yet ever she lives.


22. Heith they named her | who sought their home,
The wide-seeing witch, | in magic wise;
Minds she bewitched | that were moved by her magic,
To evil women | a joy she was.


23. On the host his spear | did Othin hurl,
Then in the world | did war first come;
The wall that girdled | the gods was broken,
And the field by the warlike | Wanes was trodden.


24. Then sought the gods | their assembly-seats,
The holy ones, | and council held,
Whether the gods | should tribute give,
Or to all alike | should worship belong.


25. Then sought the gods | their assembly-seats,
The holy ones, | and council held,
To find who with venom | the air had filled,
Or had given Oth's bride | to the giants' brood.

Enjoy!

[Rae'ya]

First for Rae'ya, and everyone else interested, the dictionary I mentioned: http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/language/E...-Old_Norse.pdf It proved to be York, Canada not York, UK. Meh. (Damn you colonists for confusing the issue )

That's actually the dictionary that I use. lol. I have several digital copies... and it's one of the few things I didn't lose when my laptop was stolen! lol

@hlewagastir: It's sort of funny that you know this story with ash saving Thor on this trip, in every version I've hear it's been a rowan tree. But then I've only heard/read retellings, I've never been near the original, so rampant translation mistake perhaps?

There is something pinging off the back of my brain about how the Norse used the term 'ash' as part of a name for another sort of tree. Or maybe 'yew'. Or maybe the other way around. I can't for the life of me remember the specifics, but I recall reading about the debate as to whether Yggdrasil was actually an ash and how 'ash' could have been a misnomer. Urgh I can't even remember where I read it, which is frustrating because I can't go look it up lol. Anyway, this passage just made me think of that and I felt I should put it out there.

First off, I've always wondered, though I have never seen it brought up else where, if the three 'thursa meyar' from verse 9 and the three Nornir were the same. They could fall into the category thursa since they're neither god, humans or animals, and as I said thursa is often used as a form of catch all category for everything else. Plus Voluspa have before show that it is not necessarily 100% chronological. Don't have an answer to it, just something I've privately wondered.

The Nornir are frost thursar. Or at least, that's my experience. You could call it UPG, but I've also seen other Northern Traditioners who believe the same, so it would be supported/corroborated gnosis. Some feel that Urdhr was one of the original progeny of Ymir, though I haven't asked Them about that so I don't know if that's true or not. I most certainly experience all three of Them as frost thursar.

I have never seen the three Nornir, and their carvings/spinnings, as predestination in the classical sense but rather as I said above the circumstances we are born into and how we deal with them.

It's not predestination in the sense that the Greek Moirai spin. It's a web of past and present choices and actions, mixed in with some influence from the choices and actions of ancestors or prior incarnations, in much the way that you described above. But there are some things that the Nornir decree WILL happen, and They have the power to enforce that, although They rarely do so with human Threads. Sometimes the choices that we make back us into a corner, so to speak... circumstances and our actions narrow the options until there is seemingly only a single outcome that will happen regardless of what you do now. It's hard to describe 'fate' in the Northern sense, because the words in English that we have... 'fate' and 'destiny'... both smack of predestination. And then people try to force the Nornir into simple definitions of 'past, present and future', which They just don't fit.

One final thing one these three. Here they are said to carve the destinies into wood while everywhere else they are said to be spinners. Personally I have always seen them as carvers and think that the spinning image is written in from Greek mythology where the fates are said to spin/weave the fates of men. Also the image of carving fits better with my idea of 'fate', that is one can once a cut is made you cannot 'unmake' it, even if you file it down and polish the place over there will always be an indication of where the cut was made for those who known where it was even if others cannot see it. Just as in life, you cannot 'undo' an action, you can try to repair the mistakes you made, but you cannot make it so that they never happened in the first place.

They do both. At least that's my experience with Them. Whether or not They've always spun I've never asked Them, but they certainly do so now. Verdhandi is the one I normally see spinning, though people seem to assume that Urdhr does it. That comes from a linear sense of 'Urdhr spins, Verdhandi weaves and Skuld cuts' which is not quite true (and I think this at least was certainly imported from the Greek Moirai). What They show me is a bit more complicated. lol

Sorry... I have quite a few opinions regarding the Nornir lol. That comes from being sworn to Skuld and being allowed to see Them at work. What They have shown me pulls the scant info from the Lore together and makes it make sense. Trying to puzzle it out on your own just brings up holes and questions.

Interestingly, few people work directly with the Nornir, and I've seen several of them be all secretive and hush hush about their experiences and will hardly say anything about Them at all. I find that interesting, because I have quite the opposite directive when it comes to things like who They are and what They do. There are other things which are confidential, like workings and techniques, but this sort of thing isn't secret. It's just patching the holes in the Lore.

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NEXT! I'm glad I'm late, or else I would've beaten MoonRaven!

I'll have to come back to the next stanzas tomorrow 'cos I suspect that I'm going to run into the post word limit.