Edda Discussion: Völuspá

[hlewagastir]

hlewagastir: It's sort of funny that you know this story with ash saving Thor on this trip, in every version I've hear it's been a rowan tree. But then I've only heard/read retellings, I've never been near the original, so rampant translation mistake perhaps?
Also the 'empty of might' probably refers to the line , while the earlier 'two without fate' refers to the

, so you were right, rowan tree indeed. Same thing about just me not paying attention.

[Rae'ya]

21. The war I remember, | the first in the world,
When the gods with spears | had smitten Gollveig,
And in the hall | of Hor had burned her,
Three times burned, | and three times born,
Oft and again, | yet ever she lives.

I remember the first war in the world
When the gods killed Gollveig with their spears
And burned her in the hall of Hor (Othinn)
She was burned three times and rose again three times
But is still alive

The first war is commonly assumed to be the war between the Vanir and the Aesir. No one really knows exactly how the Vanir came to move into the Nine Worlds or where they came from, but there's lots of theories. It's assumed from this stanza that 'Gollveig' was the first Vanadis to approach the Aesir and it seems that they killed her for no apparent reason. They tried to burn her three times but she was resurrected three times and still lives to this day.

Most people believe that Gollveig is Freyja but that doesn't sit right with me. 'Gollveig' feels like a Jotun name to me. Plus there's a story where Angrbodha approaches the Aesir and is killed, burned and resurrected as a result. Is there a connection there? I don't know, but I just don't feel that this passage is talking about Freyja. I'm not even sure it's talking about the Vanir... the following passages obviously do, but this feels a little out of place. I've also wondered whether it belongs with stanza 8, which talks about the gods not knowing about the lack of gold until three Jotnar maids arrive from Jotunheim. Could Gollveig (which means gold-might) be one of these three giant-maids who are so full of might? Could this first war actually be a war between the Aesir and the Jotnar (which is still being waged)?

And why did the Aesir kill her for no apparent reason?

This stanza also has too many lines, but they all seem to fit together so it's possible that the whole thing is an interpolation. It's hard to pick which line may not belong, though Bellows says that it's probably 5 or 6 or both of them. I would say possible line 5 is the addition, because "And in the hall / of Hor had burned her / oft and again / yet ever she lives" makes sense on it's own.

22. Heith they named her | who sought their home,
The wide-seeing witch, | in magic wise;
Minds she bewitched | that were moved by her magic,
To evil women | a joy she was.

They named her Heith
The wide seeing witch, wise about magick
She bewitched minds that were susceptible to her magick
She was a joy to evil women

Are we still talking about Gollveig here? It would seem so, and the stanza seems to follow on reasonably from the last, although Bellows thinks it's a later addition. Could it be that it was added later as a justification for why the Aesir attacked Gollveig for no reason? The sole purpose of the stanza seems to be to tell us about how evil this 'Heith' person was. Heith is a name that is given to Freyja, but the Aesir don't consider Freyja to be evil, and Odhinn specifically asked for her as a hostage because of her skill with seidhr. It still doesn't feel like this passage is talking about Freyja to me.

Could these two stanzas have been moved here to replace something else? Or was there nothing there before and someone felt that there needed to be an explanation of the Aesir declaring war on the Vanir? It seems a bit odd that the Aesir killed Gollveig for no reason and then declared war... shouldn't it have been Gollveig's people who declared war in answer to her death? It makes me suspicious that stanzas 21 and 22 are both later additions.

23. On the host his spear | did Othin hurl,
Then in the world | did war first come;
The wall that girdled | the gods was broken,
And the field by the warlike | Wanes was trodden.

Othinn threw his spear over the army
Then war came upon the world for the first time
The wall around the gods was broken
And the warlike Wanes trod the field

Hurling the spear is a declaration of war... so apparently the Aesir killed Gollveig for no reason, justified it by saying that she was evil, then declared war on the Vanir, had their wall smashed in and were overrun by Vanir. The supreme sky gods of civilisation just lost the war.

24. Then sought the gods | their assembly-seats,
The holy ones, | and council held,
Whether the gods | should tribute give,
Or to all alike | should worship belong.

Then the gods assembled
They held a council
To decide whether they should bend the knee and give tribute
Or whether everyone deserved to be worshipped

Saving face... do we bend the knee or do we 'allow everyone to be worshipped equally'. Not that they are in any position to be 'allowing' the Vanir anything, given that they actually lost.

Lucky for them it seems that the Vanir aren't interested in being top dog... they just want a place to live and a voice on the council. I find it slightly odd though that there is no mention of the decision they reached or the exchange of hostages here.

25. Then sought the gods | their assembly-seats,
The holy ones, | and council held,
To find who with venom | the air had filled,
Or had given Oth's bride | to the giants' brood.

Then the gods assembled
They held a council
To find out who had filled the air with venom
Or given Oth's wife (Freyja) to the giants.

Here we've obviously changed subjects and are talking about a new topic. It's assumed that this part is talking about the post-rebuild of the wall around Asgardh and the promise that the Aesir made to the Jotun builder that he could have Freyja as part of his payment if he built it on time. There's a HUGE chunk of that story missing here... it seems as though we've skipped right to the end, where the giant gets upset about being cheated out of his payment and tries to take Freyja by force. So why is the meat of the story - the important part that actually tells us what happened - not here? Is it just missing or is this stanza actually talking about something else? The giant never actually got hold of Freyja, and Freyja was never actually 'given' to the giants, so the language is a bit misleading. But that could just be the translation so it will be interesting to see MoonRaven's literal translation on this one.

It also seems odd to me that there would be a 'Then the gods assembled' stanza directly after the last one... this is the only place where there is two in a row.

The poem is jumping around all over the place from about stanza 8 to stanza 28 then flattens out and becomes linear once more, so it's possible that this entire section is either a later addition or has been badly chopped up. That makes it difficult to know whether this whole section is really that trustworthy. It makes sense that there should be mention of the Aesir-Vanir war and the rebuilding of Asgardhr here, but the flow seems to be badly interuppted. Much is made of the fact that the skaldic tradition is known for not having explanatory and transition stanzas, and that there is assumed prior knowledge of the basic mythology... but the second half of the Voluspa is quite detailed and linear so I really don't think that this half is original and intact.

[MoonRaven]

I'll have to come back to the next stanzas tomorrow 'cos I suspect that I'm going to run into the post word limit.

There's a word count limit? An upper one that is? Yikes. I may be in trouble.

That's actually the dictionary that I use. lol. I have several digital copies... and it's one of the few things I didn't lose when my laptop was stolen! lol

Lol, okay. Well not much help then from me. Sorry.
And I'm sorry to hear about your computer Only thing I can say, and you will have heard this a million times by now, take backup. Preferably on-line so that a thief can't make off with the spare hard-drive with all your stuff on. Learned this the hard way, though not through theft but a nasty Internet critter.

There is something pinging off the back of my brain about how the Norse used the term 'ash' as part of a name for another sort of tree. Or maybe 'yew'. Or maybe the other way around. I can't for the life of me remember the specifics, but I recall reading about the debate as to whether Yggdrasil was actually an ash and how 'ash' could have been a misnomer. Urgh I can't even remember where I read it, which is frustrating because I can't go look it up lol. Anyway, this passage just made me think of that and I felt I should put it out there.

Erh, no idea. The only place where I've heard ash being used in another context was in a kenning where it probably means sword. Apart from that I'll have to pass.

The Nornir are frost thursar. Or at least, that's my experience. You could call it UPG, but I've also seen other Northern Traditioners who believe the same, so it would be supported/corroborated gnosis. Some feel that Urdhr was one of the original progeny of Ymir, though I haven't asked Them about that so I don't know if that's true or not. I most certainly experience all three of Them as frost thursar.

It's not predestination in the sense that the Greek Moirai spin. It's a web of past and present choices and actions, mixed in with some influence from the choices and actions of ancestors or prior incarnations, in much the way that you described above. But there are some things that the Nornir decree WILL happen, and They have the power to enforce that, although They rarely do so with human Threads. Sometimes the choices that we make back us into a corner, so to speak... circumstances and our actions narrow the options until there is seemingly only a single outcome that will happen regardless of what you do now. It's hard to describe 'fate' in the Northern sense, because the words in English that we have... 'fate' and 'destiny'... both smack of predestination. And then people try to force the Nornir into simple definitions of 'past, present and future', which They just don't fit.

My 'slight' vehemence about the Nornir not

, so you were right, rowan tree indeed. Same thing about, just me not paying attention.

It's fine hlewagastir, I'm a bit too fast too sometimes . I hope you will have more time at some point to come back to this.

- - - Updated - - -

Since we apparently have an upper word count limit, eeeep, and the Heid verse is going to pull teeth I have decided to post this bit and the Gullveig verse tonight, hopefully I'll have Heid done by tomorrow, and the rest in the weekend. But since I don't know how much energy I have, and this and the Heid verse is those I find most important, I may settle for simply posting a translation of the last three.
One thing though, this version have verse 23 and 24 reversed from Heka's version and so have the two translations I have .

I will start by saying that I agree with Rae'ya that there are verses missing here. Also that the order of those left have been messed up. Personally, and this is an entirely private preference, I would say that the verse with Heid comes first, though something have fallen out between the Nornir verse and this one, then more lost verses (or just one verse maybe). Then comes Gullveig, then the 'first' council, then the war sequence, and finally, after a gap of missing verses, the 'second' council. One more thing about the Heid verse, I read somewhere I no longer recall where, that Heid was one of the thursa meyar mentioned earlier and there should be two more verses, now lost, and this one along with the lost belong up there. I have read this theory nowhere else though, so don't put too much stock in it. It is a funny theory though.

But to avoid any more confusion than there already is, and that is plenty, I have decided to address the verses in the order they appear in my version. Yes, that will put verse 24 before 23 but so be it.

Okay, and no on to Gullveig.

[Rae'ya]

There's a word count limit? An upper one that is? Yikes. I may be in trouble.

Yep. I've hit it a couple of times and had to scale back posts or cut quotes right down before responding (which I generally don't like to do because I don't like taking single sentences out of the context of the paragraph that they're a part of).

And I'm sorry to hear about your computer Only thing I can say, and you will have heard this a million times by now, take backup. Preferably on-line so that a thief can't make off with the spare hard-drive with all your stuff on. Learned this the hard way, though not through theft but a nasty Internet critter.

Yeah we backup regularly, it's just that we don't back up every single day. So we lost some downloads and ebooks and things, but nothing that was truly important. The thieves left the hard drive behind, as well as the two PCs, which was a lesson to us to hide the hard drive! lol. It was under a few sheets of paper so maybe they just didn't see it.

We learned a few hard lessons from the break in.

It's interesting that you say that about the original use of the term hrimthursar, because neither Utgardh-Loki nor Geirrodh are considered by those who work with the Jotnar to be frost giants. (I'm also interested why you consider Utgardh-Loki to be one of the most destructive giants, because that's not what we learn from his stories).

Well known Jotnar who we DO consider frost giants include the Nornir, Skadhi, Thjazi, Thrym, Rind, Bestla, Tyr, Mimir and of course Ymir.

This is where things start to get interesting between those who actively work with the Jotnar and those that don't... the Lore lets us down a fair bit in this respect because through the translations it confuses terms, equates terms, contradicts itself and glosses over details that really shouldn't be glossed over. Especially in the Prose Edda, where Snorri is intent on painting the Jotnar as some sort of inherently evil and chaotic creatures who are intent on destroying the world. Honestly, if the Jotnar wanted to destroy the Nine Worlds, they would... there are far more of them than there are any other race in the Nine Worlds and they are in sole control of four of them. Remember that many of the stories about these supposedly malevolent, destructive beings who are bent on creating havoc take place in Jotunheimr and involve Thor, Loki and/or Othinn provoking them and often attempting to cheat them out of their rightful possessions or prizes. Thor regularly invades Jotunheimr for the express purpose of killing any jotun that he finds. Now I'm not saying that the Jotnar have never initiated trouble themselves or committed malevolent acts towards the Aesir... they have, it's just not quite as one sided as it seems once you dig below the surface of the stories.

I (and others who work with the Jotnar) use the term 'frost giant' for a broad category of Jotnar, which includes the hrimthursar, pretty much the entire population of Niflheimr, the original generation directly descended from Ymir, anyone who has a significant portion of frost giant blood, most of the storm and wind giants, and some of the Jotunheim giants who live in the high icy mountains (because for the most part they have a significant portion of frost giant blood). The original frost giants were descended from Ymir and lived in Niflheim, but those who traveled and interbred brought some subtle nuances into the race, forming different classes. The hrimthursar specifically are the ones who live in Niflheim... the primal, elemental, antisocial, tribal ones who actually don't tend to interact much with the other Nine Worlds. You could consider them to be more of the elemental, destructive, chaotic side of the frost giants (along with the storm giants), as they are closest to the actual elemental nature of frost, ice and snow. If it helps with the semantics of the terminology, 'hrim' translates to 'rime' which is a specific type of frost.

Frost, snow and ice were a major part of the Scandinavian and circumpolar world. Snow and ice filled the world for most, if not all, of the year. There were differences to the character, integrity and significance of ice and snow at different times of year and in different circumstances. Snow, ice, frost, hoarfrost, rime, glacial, hail, blizzard, powder, fog, black ice, sleet, slush... there are hundreds of different permutations to 'ice', and hundreds of subtle nuances and differences that only someone who lives in snow and ice for most of the year can know. This is all reflected in the nature of the frost giants. Sometimes they're chaotic and disruptive. Sometimes they're calming and introspective. Sometimes they're cold, calculating and logical. Look at the runes Isa and Hagalaz... both centre around ice but are very different in nature. Jotnar like the Nornir and Mimir on the surface are quite different to the primal hrimthursar, but they are still frost giants.

My 'slight' vehemence about the Nornir not

I also have trouble explaining it to pagans who believe in karma and the Threefold Law and things like that... sometimes they have a more rigid view of destiny and it makes it hard when you try to bring orlog into the picture. When you start talking about orlog they start seeing karma, and it's just not the same thing. I also see a lot of Heathens go in the opposite direction and try to explain it as if there is NO element of predestination at all, which is not strictly accurate. It's hard... the whole things makes such perfect sense to me, but it's so difficult to explain to others. I think it's one of those things that you either struggle with or that you instinctively 'just get'.

As an aside, wyrd is Old English, not Old Norse. It's a common assumption, because we tend to talk about orlog and wyrd together, perhaps because using urdhr (the term) gets confusing when you throw Urdhr (the goddess) in there lol. I'm a bit of a stickler for not mixing my languages... I prefer Old Norse and I dislike using Old English terms. Not really sure why, it's just a thing I have. I'd rather use English than Old English... I know that makes NO sense but hey *shrugs* I actually don't mind when other people do, it's just a personal preference. It's also why I'm very specific about the deity name forms that I use as well as the spellings. I'm a bit weird like that.

You know, it always bothered me that these stanzas say 'in this world' rather than 'worlds'. There are nine worlds in the Norse cosmos, and yet the translations are all singular... why? I find the possible translation of 'civil war' really interesting, because it explains the singular 'world' but it also changes the context of who Gollveig may be. If we're thinking civil war then Gollveig is more likely to be asynjur rather than vanadis or jotnar. Does that change the meaning of the stanza? It's hard to tell when there is obviously so much of this section missing. Scholars have been hashing the stanzas together in various orders for years and not come to an agreement... perhaps we shall just never know, or shall have to look to the UPG of someone who has actually gone in and asked the Aesir about it (though I'm honesly not confident that they would get a straight and honest answer lol.)

There is also the question as to why the stanza says 'she remembers' instead of 'I remember'... there are later stanzas where the volva says 'I remember', so why is this one different? More food for thought.

[MoonRaven]

It's interesting that you say that about the original use of the term hrimthursar, because neither Utgardh-Loki nor Geirrodh are considered by those who work with the Jotnar to be frost giants. (I'm also interested why you consider Utgardh-Loki to be one of the most destructive giants, because that's not what we learn from his stories).

This is where things start to get interesting between those who actively work with the Jotnar and those that don't... the Lore lets us down a fair bit in this respect because through the translations it confuses terms, equates terms, contradicts itself and glosses over details that really shouldn't be glossed over. Especially in the Prose Edda, where Snorri is intent on painting the Jotnar as some sort of inherently evil and chaotic creatures who are intent on destroying the world. Honestly, if the Jotnar wanted to destroy the Nine Worlds, they would... there are far more of them than there are any other race in the Nine Worlds and they are in sole control of four of them. Remember that many of the stories about these supposedly malevolent, destructive beings who are bent on creating havoc take place in Jotunheimr and involve Thor, Loki and/or Othinn provoking them and often attempting to cheat them out of their rightful possessions or prizes. Thor regularly invades Jotunheimr for the express purpose of killing any jotun that he finds. Now I'm not saying that the Jotnar have never initiated trouble themselves or committed malevolent acts towards the Aesir... they have, it's just not quite as one sided as it seems once you dig below the surface of the stories.

Yeah, I never quite got the Jotnar= evil, except perhaps as a left over from Snorri and Christianity. Part of my love of these myths, long before it became of religious significance to me, was the complicated world view it presented. Often the Aesir are as bad, or worse, than the giants. An example of this I particularly like is Thor's fishing trip with Hrymir (is that how he is spelled?). The Giant treats him courteously, but he kills the poor fellow's bull and wind up slaying several Giants when he leaves, in the original version this is completely unprovoked . While I've never seen Thor as the most well mannered guy, this is rather extreme behaviour.

I (and others who work with the Jotnar) use the term 'frost giant' for a broad category of Jotnar, which includes the hrimthursar, pretty much the entire population of Niflheimr, the original generation directly descended from Ymir, anyone who has a significant portion of frost giant blood, most of the storm and wind giants, and some of the Jotunheim giants who live in the high icy mountains (because for the most part they have a significant portion of frost giant blood). The original frost giants were descended from Ymir and lived in Niflheim, but those who traveled and interbred brought some subtle nuances into the race, forming different classes. The hrimthursar specifically are the ones who live in Niflheim... the primal, elemental, antisocial, tribal ones who actually don't tend to interact much with the other Nine Worlds. You could consider them to be more of the elemental, destructive, chaotic side of the frost giants (along with the storm giants), as they are closest to the actual elemental nature of frost, ice and snow. If it helps with the semantics of the terminology, 'hrim' translates to 'rime' which is a specific type of frost.

I think one of the main reason for our difference of opinion has to do with what happens when you translate Old Norse into Modern English, as well as the destinct lack of lore on this subject. Toss in some UPG and we have room for a lively debate on this . I think we'll have to leave it there for now or risk confusing everyone even further, or possibly take it elsewhere. I leave the decision of which to you.

Frost, snow and ice were a major part of the Scandinavian and circumpolar world. Snow and ice filled the world for most, if not all, of the year. There were differences to the character, integrity and significance of ice and snow at different times of year and in different circumstances. Snow, ice, frost, hoarfrost, rime, glacial, hail, blizzard, powder, fog, black ice, sleet, slush... there are hundreds of different permutations to 'ice', and hundreds of subtle nuances and differences that only someone who lives in snow and ice for most of the year can know. This is all reflected in the nature of the frost giants. Sometimes they're chaotic and disruptive. Sometimes they're calming and introspective. Sometimes they're cold, calculating and logical. Look at the runes Isa and Hagalaz... both centre around ice but are very different in nature. Jotnar like the Nornir and Mimir on the surface are quite different to the primal hrimthursar, but they are still frost giants.

It sort of depends where in Scandinavia you are. This holds for the Northern Sweden and a good portion of Norway, while Denmark and Southern Sweden have a climate reminisent of England. (That said, the winter 2012/2013 in Denmark had ambitions of being of the Fimbul variety, so you don't have to tell about ice and snow. Brrr )

And yes, the futher north you go, the more descriptive words for snow and ice you'll find. I think the Sami, who lives in the northern most parts of Norway, Sweden and Finland, have over a hundred, but that's a different story.

As an aside, wyrd is Old English, not Old Norse. It's a common assumption, because we tend to talk about orlog and wyrd together, perhaps because using urdhr (the term) gets confusing when you throw Urdhr (the goddess) in there lol. I'm a bit of a stickler for not mixing my languages... I prefer Old Norse and I dislike using Old English terms. Not really sure why, it's just a thing I have. I'd rather use English than Old English... I know that makes NO sense but hey *shrugs* I actually don't mind when other people do, it's just a personal preference. It's also why I'm very specific about the deity name forms that I use as well as the spellings. I'm a bit weird like that.

The reason I use orlog and wyrd together is due to cultural heritage. Many Scandinavian Norse Traditioners, Heathens, Asatru, whatever we are supposed to call ourselves (another set of terms where there are wild arguments) use both and so do I, but to each her own.

You know, it always bothered me that these stanzas say 'in this world' rather than 'worlds'. There are nine worlds in the Norse cosmos, and yet the translations are all singular... why? I find the possible translation of 'civil war' really interesting, because it explains the singular 'world' but it also changes the context of who Gollveig may be. If we're thinking civil war then Gollveig is more likely to be asynjur rather than vanadis or jotnar. Does that change the meaning of the stanza? It's hard to tell when there is obviously so much of this section missing. Scholars have been hashing the stanzas together in various orders for years and not come to an agreement... perhaps we shall just never know, or shall have to look to the UPG of someone who has actually gone in and asked the Aesir about it (though I'm honesly not confident that they would get a straight and honest answer lol.)

The changing of 'heimi' (home) to 'world' is the least of the odd translations in this set of verses. The Heid verse have another oddity I have never had explained to me properly, and which I will be spending some time welling on when I get there.
Most scholars simply seem to ignore these inconsistencies. In fact, it always appeared to me as if scholars have approached the interpretations of these verses in reverse order and started out with thinking up an interpretation that sort of fit most of the facts, and then shoehorned the translation into it.

I had, several years ago so I hope I recall this correctly, a discussion with a Norse Traditioner acquintance of mine about the civil war. Actually the idea of this is entirely due to him and what he told me of his UPG.
He said that the way he had always seen it, the Aesir and Vanir was one people originally, but that the group that later became the Aesir wanted to impose more order on the world (slay the Jotnar) and got continuously greedier (this greed being Gullveig, which they cannot defeat). Those who became the Vanir, was those who wanted to live in a more symbiotic relationship with the Jotnar and everyone else. And remember both Njord and Frey are married to Giants. We don't know enough of Freya's husband Odd to know who, or what, he was, though verse 25 here indicates that he wasn't a Giant. Still two out of three aint bad .
This conflict escalated until it came to war.

There is also the question as to why the stanza says 'she remembers' instead of 'I remember'... there are later stanzas where the volva says 'I remember', so why is this one different? More food for thought.

The only explanaition I have heard here, that makes even half a wit of sense has to do the poet having to fit it into a specific meter and rhyme, but I'm not well versed enough in Eddic poetry to judge the likelyhood of this explanation.

[Heka]

I had, several years ago so I hope I recall this correctly, a discussion with a Norse Traditioner acquintance of mine about the civil war. Actually the idea of this is entirely due to him and what he told me of his UPG.
He said that the way he had always seen it, the Aesir and Vanir was one people originally, but that the group that later became the Aesir wanted to impose more order on the world (slay the Jotnar) and got continuously greedier (this greed being Gullveig, which they cannot defeat). Those who became the Vanir, was those who wanted to live in a more symbiotic relationship with the Jotnar and everyone else. And remember both Njord and Frey are married to Giants. We don't know enough of Freya's husband Odd to know who, or what, he was, though verse 25 here indicates that he wasn't a Giant. Still two out of three aint bad .
This conflict escalated until it came to war.

This is very interesting. I've always wondered about the Aesir/Vanir split, why it is, where it came from, what the lore had to say... And while I've never asked (just waiting for the answers to come to me as we study the lore) this is a pretty logical answer.

[Rae'ya]

Nothing wrong with UPG lol. I put just as much stock into UPG as I do the Lore. Mostly because I DO work with the Jotnar, so the Lore is just not enough. For those who work with the Jotnar (some use the term Rokkr when talking about the Jotnar deities as opposed to the general jotun populace) we have to take the snippets that the Lore tells us, remove the Christian influenced bias (as what written sources we have were written down by Christians, who had an ingrained dichotomous worldview) and supplement it with UPG. Then compare our own UPG with that of others who work with the Jotnar to build up a database of supported or corroborated UPG (hence SPG or PCPG).

Yeah, I never quite got the Jotnar= evil, except perhaps as a left over from Snorri and Christianity. Part of my love of these myths, long before it became of religious significance to me, was the complicated world view it presented. Often the Aesir are as bad, or worse, than the giants. An example of this I particularly like is Thor's fishing trip with Hrymir (is that how he is spelled?). The Giant treats him courteously, but he kills the poor fellow's bull and wind up slaying several Giants when he leaves, in the original version this is completely unprovoked . While I've never seen Thor as the most well mannered guy, this is rather extreme behaviour.

Thorr is well known for killing jotnar people for no reason other than he has made it his mission to do so. In that particular story there actually WAS a reason though, as it was part of the adventure that he and Tyr went on to take Hymir's cauldron. I'm not saying it was a good reason... more of an ulterior motive. Plus a lot of pride, gluttony and desire to prove himself strong and clever. That's what we expect from Thorr, though. On the other hand, I think the whole story was rather shameful on Tyr, as he was the one who suggested that they somehow try to take his father's cauldron. And the only reason for THAT was the greed of the Aesir.

But yes, the Aesir are certainly not the kind, benevolent, honorable, infallible deities that they are sometimes made out to be. And the Jotnar are not the malevolent evil beings that THEY are made out to be. I find it interesting that many modern pagans and Heathens are so willing to jump onto the dichotomous bandwagon that the Christian scholars created for us. It leads to all sorts of misguided bigotry. But then, 'good' and 'evil' are a matter of perspective, I suppose.

I think one of the main reason for our difference of opinion has to do with what happens when you translate Old Norse into Modern English, as well as the destinct lack of lore on this subject. Toss in some UPG and we have room for a lively debate on this . I think we'll have to leave it there for now or risk confusing everyone even further, or possibly take it elsewhere. I leave the decision of which to you.

I'm not hung up on it, and it's fine to agree to disagree. I'm used to that when talking to people who don't work with the Jotnar... you learn quickly not to take it personally lol Being someone who works with Demons and is considered a LHP'er also helps with that... Our perspective is different, and that's fine. Things look different when you're standing inside something as opposed to being an outsider looking in.

The reason I use orlog and wyrd together is due to cultural heritage. Many Scandinavian Norse Traditioners, Heathens, Asatru, whatever we are supposed to call ourselves (another set of terms where there are wild arguments) use both and so do I, but to each her own.

That's what I meant by 'common assumption' lol. I wasn't actually referring to you mixing languages, just to the fact that you said "... the Old Norse words orlog and wyrd...", which was an unexpected slip up considering your penchant for technicalities of language and terminology. As I said in the quote you sited, I really don't mind other people mixing the languages, I was just trying to explain why I notice and care, when pretty much no one else does.

The changing of 'heimi' (home) to 'world' is the least of the odd translations in this set of verses. The Heid verse have another oddity I have never had explained to me properly, and which I will be spending some time welling on when I get there.
Most scholars simply seem to ignore these inconsistencies. In fact, it always appeared to me as if scholars have approached the interpretations of these verses in reverse order and started out with thinking up an interpretation that sort of fit most of the facts, and then shoehorned the translation into it.

I'm looking forward to your version of the rest of these stanzas. This (and the next few weeks) is the section of the Voluspa that is most corrupted, as far as I can tell. It will be interesting to see what we all make of it.

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This is very interesting. I've always wondered about the Aesir/Vanir split, why it is, where it came from, what the lore had to say... And while I've never asked (just waiting for the answers to come to me as we study the lore) this is a pretty logical answer.

Nobody really knows for sure, because it's not explicitly stated in the Lore. The Vanir just appear one day, went to war with the Aesir, won, exchanged hostages and settled in their own world. There are all sorts of theories, but none are particularly more attested to in the Lore than others.

Personally, I'm not 100% sold on the idea that the Vanir were once the same peoples as the Aesir. Aside from the focus of civilisation vs fertility deities, look at the relationship between Othinn and Freyja... at the time of the war, Freyja was known to Othinn by reputation, but not personally. He was fairly desperate to get his hands on her so that he could learn from her. If she had once been part of the Aesir community, wouldn't he have already had the chance to do that?

The civil war thing is incredibly interesting, though. I'm actually wondering if this is further evidence to suggest that there is something missing between the stanzas? I have to think about this one further and see the Old Norse of the next section of stanzas before I can make up my mind.

Edited for clarification on a point.

[MoonRaven]

not mean women in general but brides specifically, that is women who are or are about to be married. (Actually all the Scadinavic words for bride as well as the word bride itself, originates in this word).
'Illrar' is taken to mean evil, but it can also mean 'mannish'. (I think I have this from Jochens. where she deals with the meyar kungr, maiden kings, some who are described in places as 'illrar' where it is obvious that it doesn't mean 'evil' but where 'mannish' makes more sense. She makes the argument that the translation to 'evil' is wrong because of the connotations this word has today, and that it originally carried a meaning more along the line of 'socially disruptive'.)
If we start somewhere else, with the word 'argr', which is a more know word. It meant something like 'womanish', that is a man that behaved like a woman in some way, something that was frowned upon by the Old Norse people. Actually frowned upon is a bit mild, in some areas at certain times in history, it carried a death sentence.

But if we accept that 'illrar' doesam

I don't know if the debt referred to was the killing of Gullveig, but if it was and if she was a Vanir, it leads to some interesting thoughts. Apparently, since she is burned in Odin's hall, she has travelled to the land of the Aesir, but why? What did she want? Also, amongst the Norse people women never travelled alone, apart from those who knew seidr apparently.
I don't think it is Freya who is Gullveig though. Personally I think scholars keep bringing her up because she's the only Vanir goddess we know by name but there can easily have been others who's names have now been lost. The verse below shows that there definitely were other Vanir, but whether they were named or not is anyone's guess.

here.


unmarried one. That of course begs the question of who Od was to Freya if not her husband, he couldn't have been if she was a maid, or if it is referring to someone else entirely. If the poet meant wife it should have been 'vif' or 'kona', if he meant woman then ' kvenna'. Very odd.
Actually we don't hear anything about Od elsewhere than in connection with Freya, so we don't really know who, or for that matter what, he is. Considering how often Freya is mentioned in various poems and stories, it is extremely odd, no pun intended, that we never hear more about him.
Is 'he' even a person? After all Gungnir, Odin's spear, Sleipner, his horse, and Mjollnir, Thor's hammer, were both named and spelled with a capital first letter, so could we be talking about a thing or an animal? Yes he is referred to as a man in a few of the places that mentions him, but these are poems set down centuries after the Old Norse practise stopped.


Well that pulled some teeth. I'm impressed I kept it within the word count .

[Heka]

Nobody really knows for sure, because it's not explicitly stated in the Lore. The Vanir just appear one day, went to war with the Aesir, won, exchanged hostages and settled in their own world. There are all sorts of theories, but none are particularly more attested to in the Lore than others.

Personally, I'm not 100% sold on the idea that the Vanir were once the same peoples as the Aesir. Aside from the focus of civilisation vs fertility deities, look at the relationship between Othinn and Freyja... at the time of the war, Freyja was known to Othinn by reputation, but not personally. He was fairly desperate to get his hands on her so that he could learn from her. If she had once been part of the Aesir community, wouldn't he have already had the chance to do that?

Good points. THis is why I'm reading the lore :P

[Heka]

26. In swelling rage | then rose up Thor,--
Seldom he sits | when he such things hears,--
And the oaths were broken, | the words and bonds,
The mighty pledges | between them made.


27. I know of the horn | of Heimdall, hidden
Under the high-reaching | holy tree;
On it there pours | from Valfather's pledge
A mighty stream: | would you know yet more?


28. Alone I sat | when the Old One sought me,
The terror of gods, | and gazed in mine eyes:
"What hast thou to ask? | why comest thou hither?
Othin, I know | where thine eye is hidden."


29. I know where Othin's | eye is hidden,
Deep in the wide-famed | well of Mimir;
Mead from the pledge | of Othin each mom
Does Mimir drink: | would you know yet more?


30. Necklaces had I | and rings from Heerfather,
Wise was my speech | and my magic wisdom;
. . . . . . . . . .
Widely I saw | over all the worlds.




Rae'ya mentioned something about how it doesn't become quite logical until around v.28. And while these seem to make more sense as individual stanzas the continuity still doesn't seem quite there. I'm excited to see Thor and Heimdall mentioned. These are names I know! But why did Thor crack up? Who broke the agreement? Sounds like an Aesir thing :P And then it seems like the Volva is proving her immense knowledge again. With a missing line.

Looking forward to your posts!

[Rae'ya]

You know, having the verses in this order, with stanza 23 and 24 reversed, actually makes a lot of sense. It flows better and brings a new context into it, especially when you read a literal translation rather than the prettied up translations that tend to be published. There's definitely a different nuance to some of the terms which change the essence of the stanzas. Interesting.

[Heka]

[Rae'ya]

Also the verse indicates that it is the Vanir who are the invaders, not the Aesir. Though if their reason for doing so is the murder of Gullveig one could say they have good reasons. But it turns the whole traditional idea of peaceful, resident Vanirs and invading Aesirs on its head.

I'm not Vanatru, but I frequently hear the Vanir described as 'warlike' rather than 'peaceful'. And considering they ritually slay Freyr every year, and sacrifice some young people to Nerthus every year, they don't strike me as 'peaceful' lol. When your love and fertility goddess is also a war goddess that says something about your basic culture!

But since the Vanir aren't interested in taking over (IRL we weren't talking about a military or religious conquest from the outside but a practice who are introduced from the outside), they agree to exchange hostages. And though the Vanir deities stay in Asgaard, the Aesir gets (most) of their hostages back again. Though Mimir lost his head. Or maybe it should be, lost his body, since it's the head the Aesir gets back.
I've always thought it funny that Mimir was one of the Aesir hostages since he is technically a Giant.

I think this is a testament to how much the Vanir just wanted to co-exist rather than take over. And not only that, but their own foresight and planning when it came to the hostages. Much like Skadhi, the Vanir wangled their way into the Aesir council by sending Freyr, Freyja and Njordhr rather than lesser deities. That exchange of hostages meant that they get three places on the council, and yet are pretty much untouched by Aesir influence in their own land. They killed Mimir in a show of discontent and strength... you give us a useless hostage who isn't even of your own race (Mimir is Othinn's uncle, but it's not the same), we'll kill him and send you back his head, because we know that you wont have the balls to retaliate. I find the strategy and power play involved in that quite interesting. The Aesir thought they were getting a better deal, but I'm not so sure that's really the way it turned out.

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It flows a bit better doesn't it? And fixes that issue with the two 'Gods holding councils' stanzas.

It does a bit. Scholars have played around with all sorts of orders and rearrangements for various stanzas, and it's interesting to see how much of a difference something like that can make.

I'm gonna hit the next lot of stanzas tomorrow

[Rae'ya]

26. In swelling rage | then rose up Thor,--
Seldom he sits | when he such things hears,--
And the oaths were broken, | the words and bonds,
The mighty pledges | between them made.

Then Thorr jumped up and threw a tantrum
He can't sit calmly when he hears such things
Then they broke their oaths and promises
The agreements that had been made

This one I think is related to stanza 25, though it's tricky to know exactly what event they're talking about. People tend to assume that they're talking about the rebuilding of the walls of Asgardhr here, because Snorri turns them into that story in the Prose Edda, but I'm not convinced. It could be a number of events... the builder of the wall of Asgardhr was not the only person who Freyja was promised to. It could be, but there's not really a way to know for absolute sure. I think this particular stanza is more useful in leaning something of Thorr (he has somewhat of a temper... and we must remember that he is three quarters Jotun). I thin it also tells us something of the attitude that the Aesir have towards the oaths that they make.

27. I know of the horn | of Heimdall, hidden
Under the high-reaching | holy tree;
On it there pours | from Valfather's pledge
A mighty stream: | would you know yet more?

I know of Heimdall's horn (more likely to be 'hearing')
Hidden under Yggdrasil
Under a stream which flows from Mimirsbrunnar
Shall I go on?

Here the Volva starts getting a bit more specific with proving her knowledge. She's not talking about history anymore, but of things that are not necessarily common knowledge. She's showing off a bit, perhaps to prove to Othinn that she is as clever as he is and not to take her for granted. This stanza SEEMS pretty self explanatory, but is actually open to a fair bit of interpretation. She has used an kenning in this one by saying 'Valfather's pledge' in relation to a mighty stream by Yggdrasil. It's assumed to mean Othinn's eye, which is in Mimirsbrunnar. Bellows says something about 'Valfather's pledge' also being used in a later stanza to refer to a drinking vessel.

Interestingly, Mimirsbrunnar is not in Asgardhr, but in Jotunheim. Also, the translation of 'the horn of Heimdall' is debated, and some say 'hearing' instead of 'horn'. I actually agree with this, though I'd have to see the Old Norse to be sure. I find it hard to believe that Gjallarhorn would be hidden under Mimirsbrunnar in Jotunheim, seeing as it will supposedly be blown to signal the start of Ragnarok... why hide it in the land of the supposed enemy? On the other hand, Heimdall gave up one ear in order to increase his supernatural hearing and sight... perhaps he gave it up to Mimir, much as Othinn gave up one eye. It would then make sense that Heimdall's hearing is hidden beneath Yggdrasil, within Mimirsbrunnar.

But we also have to consider whether 'Valfather's pledge' actually refers to his eye in Mimirsbrunnar, because that's not really clear either. Othinn made lots of deals and pledges, not all of which he keeps. If the Old Norse translates literally into 'pledge' then it would suggest that this particular kenning is referring to something that Othinn has given up, or sacrificed. His eye, or something else? The Volva talks about his eye in a stanza 29, so why would she refer to it like this in this stanza, but differently two stanzas later? I'd like to see the Old Norse of both these stanzas to really make a decision on the accuracy of that translation.

28. Alone I sat | when the Old One sought me,
The terror of gods, | and gazed in mine eyes:
"What hast thou to ask? | why comest thou hither?
Othin, I know | where thine eye is hidden."

I sat alone when Othinn found me
The terror of gods (does she mean herself, or Othinn, I'm not sure) and looked in my eyes
Why are you here, what do you want
Othinn, I know where your eyes is hidden.

There's debate about whether this stanza belongs here. I really don't know. It doesn't seem to flow, and it doesn't feel quite right in this position. It could belong earlier, as an introduction. I suspect that it has been placed here because the next stanza speaks of Othinn's eye, and so someone thought it made sense to put them together. The feel of the words isn't quite right though. And it bothers me that the Volva keeps changing the way that she refers to herself... sometimes in first person, sometimes in third. Translation error or suggestion that verses have been moved around?

The part that I'm confused about here is whether she means herself or Othinn when she says 'The terror of gods'. I have no theory... it could swing either way.

29. I know where Othin's | eye is hidden,
Deep in the wide-famed | well of Mimir;
Mead from the pledge | of Othin each mom
Does Mimir drink: | would you know yet more?

I know where Othinn's eye is hidden
Deep in Mimirsbrunnar
Every morning Mimir drinks mead from (Valfather's pledge?)
Shall I go on?

Bellows says that the first line is not the original line, but a later change based on Snorri's use of the stanza in the Prose Edda. If that's true the stanza could refer to anything that was thrown down Mimirsbrunnar, including Mimir's head.

This stanza feels to me along the same lines as the one about Heimdall's hearing... more proving that the Volva knows Othinn's secrets and he can't hide anything from her. If the Old Norse says that "the pledge of Othinn" is 'Valfather's pledge' in the same way that was mentioned in stanza 27 then it doesn't really make sense that it means 'Othinn's eye'. Mimir drinks mead from an eye? Surely that can't be right.

Either way I think that this and stanza 27 are best taken together, and perhaps stanza 28 is out of place.

30. Necklaces had I | and rings from Heerfather,
Wise was my speech | and my magic wisdom;
. . . . . . . . . .
Widely I saw | over all the worlds.

Othinn gave me necklaces and rings
My words and magick were wise
...
I saw wide over all the worlds

Perhaps this and stanza 28 belong together? Obviously there's a line missing, but the intent is relatively clear. Othinn has either rewarded or bribed the Volva with jewellry and she's boasting of her wisdom and abilities. It's the last stanza before she starts talking about future prophacy, so I think it's more a 'bribe' than a 'reward' lol.

[MoonRaven]