Edda Discussion: Völuspá

[Rae'ya]

Okay. I have no time and even less energy this week so I am going to simply post the translations.

You better not make this a habit, young lady.

[MoonRaven]

You better not make this a habit, young lady.

I will try my best, unfortunately life and health doesn't always comply .

But I really didn't have much to say you hadn't already covered. Just two things really.

One: that from here on verse length, at least in the 'original' text goes up and down like a yoyo from here on.

Two: I would like to draw attention to verse 28-30. A woman; skilled in seidr probably at least able to see the future and other places, but neither god nor giant as far as we can tell; stares down the most powerful and terrible of Aesir - successfully - and taunts him. Not only that, Odin apparently cannot command her to use her powers on his command. No, he has to pay her for her services like any other chieftain or lord would have to.

[Heka]

[Rae'ya]

I will try my best, unfortunately life and health doesn't always comply .

Hey, none of us are obligated to exhaust ourselves answering PaganForum posts lol.

Personally... time and convenience don't always comply. I've not been here all week... and now I really can't be bothered doing this week's just right now. So I vote that we skip LAST week, we'll do our thoughts for verses 31-35 THIS week and Heka can post the next lot NEXT week.

Sounds like a plan to me lol

[MoonRaven]

Hey, none of us are obligated to exhaust ourselves answering PaganForum posts lol.

Personally... time and convenience don't always comply. I've not been here all week... and now I really can't be bothered doing this week's just right now. So I vote that we skip LAST week, we'll do our thoughts for verses 31-35 THIS week and Heka can post the next lot NEXT week.

Sounds like a plan to me lol

Was going to post this sooner but forgot. Ooops


Heka (why do I always type Hekla when I try to write Heka?) and I already agreed to let 31-35 last two weeks, that is last week and this week. I think I'll have the valkyrieverse done and up by tonight.

[MoonRaven]

.

A listing of Valkyries, basically. A couple of thing about this verse though.

One, Herjan is, yet another, name for Odin. I means something akin to lord or leader and refers to him in his aspect as leader of the einherjan, that is those who died in battle and went to Valhalla.

Two, I have no idea what if the Skuld appearing here is the Skuld from before, the Norn, and if she what she's doing here. Any idea Rae'ya?

Finally about the Valkyries themselves. Apart from the fact that they chose the slain in battle we don't really know much about them. Of course that doesn't stop some people theorising what they may have meant to the Norse people, some of them are quite fun but have roots more in UPG or outright fantasy than in lore.
One I particularly enjoyed was the idea that the Valkyries was the mythologised version of the battlefield samaritans of the day. That is the women, healing being largely a female dominated field, who got wounded off the battlefield and did their best to heal them, or if they couldn't heal them then kill them. The latter may seem harsh to us today, but remember they didn't have the medical and surgical knowledge we have nor the anaesthetics, so killing a man with a gut wound would be preferable to letting him linger in pain and suffering for days.

[MoonRaven]

Here we come to Balder's death. Since all three verses deals with that, I am going to treat them under one post.

The most full account we have is 'Baldrsdrauma' which goes like this. Balder had recurring dreams about dying, so he went to his parents and told them. Odin saddled Sleipnir and rode to Hel to awaken the Volva buried right outside the gates and forced her to answer him whether or not this was true.
(Btw, the reason why some say that the Volva who prophecies Voluspa is dead is because she is equated with the the one in the poem about Balder's death, but that is a leap to a completely unfounded conclusion that have nothing to support it except the fact that both are Volvur.)
The Volva, annoyed that she had been woken, continued to prophesy about Balder's death, that it was his brother Hodur (Hoth) who would kill him (and gives an occluded reference to a branch or piece of wood), Balder's reception in Hel and that Odin would beget a son by the giantess (or goddess, or king's daughter, depends on who you asks. For simplicity's sake I will describe her as giantess henceforth) Rind who would avenge Balder's death by killing Hodur. After that she goes back to her eternal rest and the poems end.
The mistletoe as the 'branch or piece of wood' shows up here.
Snorri gives a more full account, which adds that after Odin came home with this news Frigg did some magic where she made everything in the world swear that it would harm Baldur. Except the mistletoe which was such a tiny, soft plant that she couldn't see how it could do any harm (and apparently she forgot to get Hodur to swear as well). Well Loki, who for unknown reasons wish Balder harm, learns this from Frigg and succeeds in making an arrow of mistletoe (now there's an impressive feat).
(I'm not sure how far I trust Snorri in this. While he in many cases appears to have had access to poems and stories now lost, he also seem intent on painting Loki as a Norse version of Satan. But since his stated intent with writing all of the things down that he did was to prove that the Old Norse people were in fact originally believers in the Abrahamic God who simply lost their knowledge of Him, this tendency can hardly be surprising. So when it comes to Snorri one should take all he writes, and particularly all he writes about Loki with about a ton of salt. Yet another aside, but I'll return to Loki and his possible involvement in Balder's death in a few verses.)
In the mean time the gods have taken to a game of throwing stuff at Balder since nothing can harm him. Everyone that is except Hodur, who is blind and therefore can't participate. Loki shows up and encourages Hodur to join in, even lending him a bow, and the arrow made from mistletoe. Hodur shoots the arrow at Balder and even manages to hit him, and cause an injury sufficient to kill him. (That's one heck of a shot. Or one heck of an arrow if we assume that it's a magical one.)
Frigg gets Hermod, who is either yet another son of Odin or a fallen hero and therefore one of the Einhjers, to ride to Hel (the realm) and ask Hel (the goddess) what it would take for her to release Balder back into the realm of the living. Hel (the goddess) says that if all living things will cry for Balder she will release him. Frigg manages to get everyone and everything to cry for Balder, with the exception of one giantess called Thokk who refuses. Thokk is usually equated with Loki but it is never specifically stated, one more thing I return to in the verses about Loki's binding.
One can of course ask why Odin isn't raising a finger while Frigg is working so hard to get Balder back. He is busy wooing the giantess Rind, the one who was supposed to bear him a son who would kill Hodur and thus avenge Balder's death. Exactly why it is Hodur

[Rae'ya]

Warning this post will likely incense Odinists as well as some other members of the Northern Tradition. Proceed with caution.

Only Odinists and Heathens... us Northern Traditioners have theories about this story and are not offended by it at all lol

Snorri gives a more full account, which adds that after Odin came home with this news Frigg did some magic where she made everything in the world swear that it would harm Baldur. Except the mistletoe which was such a tiny, soft plant that she couldn't see how it could do any harm (and apparently she forgot to get Hodur to swear as well).

Personally, I think Frigg should have known better. The Nornir decreed that Baldr should die, in order that he can survive Ragnarok and return in the aftermath (now there's a conundrum... die now in order to live later lol). Frigg knows the Nornir, She lends energy to Their work and They help Her with Her own prophecy. She should have known that nothing She could possibly do would save Her son, yet She tried anyway. She is his mother, after all.

Well Loki, who for unknown reasons wish Balder harm, learns this from Frigg and succeeds in making an arrow of mistletoe (now there's an impressive feat).

I have a theory about Loki and his involvement in some of these things. It seems to me that sometimes He is an agent of Wyrd, if you will... He does a lot of things to cause trouble, then miraculously fixes them. He can wangle his way out of any situation and find a way to make things happen that no one else can. I think that His involvement in this incident ties into that... the Nornir decreed that Baldr should die and They roped Loki (unwittingly, perhaps) into ensuring that it happened. Loki gets Himself thrown from situation to situation seemingly without reason sometimes... What was He doing there? Why did He allow that to happen just so that He could turn around and undo it? Whose side is He on? Those are questions people are constantly asking about Loki. I think sometimes He doesn't know himself... He is used by so many different deities but He allows it to happen. Why? Perhaps that's in His nature. I think in this case He got Himself used by the Nornir, perhaps with a bit of prodding from His daughter (Hela), who would have been cheated out of procuring Baldr if Frigg had been successful.

Either way, the ONLY reason that Baldr is slated to survive Ragnarok is because of Loki's actions. If Frigg had been successful in saving his life, then Baldr would die in Ragnarok with the others. So in a way, Loki is the one who secured Baldr's future, in a way that His mother couldn't bring Herself to do. So who did Baldr the greatest service? Loki.

Exactly why it is Hodur and not Loki who should be killed, particularly since it appears that Balder's death anything but unintentional on Hodur part and that if the account up till now is to be believed that Loki is just as guilty, I never really understood.

The theory on this is that Odhinn in fact DID intend it to be Loki who was killedt, but Rind ensured that He was thwarted on that in retaliation for being raped and used against her will. Odhinn himself is unable to harm Loki because of their blood bond, but He thinks Himself smart enough to engineer someone else to do it for Him. However, He didn't count on the wrath of the frost giantess He used. Rind is staid to be a mistress of time, and that is how Her son was fully grown by day's end. She raised him to kill Hodur, not Loki, so that's what he did.

(Don't ask me why they kept Balder's body so long, or how they kept it from decaying. Or why Hodur is burned along with Balder. None of it ever made much sense to me )

This all took place in a matter or a day or so... and the Aesir had hopes that Hela would allow Baldr to return to life. It took nine days for Hermod to walk the Helvegr, and so Baldr's body couldn't be burned before that. Everyone's in a panic... Othinn travelled to Rind at the same time that Frigg's envoy was going to Helheim. Othinn knew that the Hermod would fail, just as the attempt to secure Baldr's safety failed. His mind is on revenge while everyone else is still trying to save Baldr.

Truth be told, I've often wondered if Odin stood by and allowed Balder to be killed? I mean after he gets back from questioning the Volva he doesn't seem to raise a finger to protect him, leaving that to his wife. Not even the bare minimum of keeping Hodur, who is directly named as Balder's killer, away from him.

Othinn is wise, if nothing else. He knows the future, He knows the Nornir, He knows the implacability of Their decrees. He knows there's nothing He can do to stop it. It's likely that He also sees the sense in having Baldr safe from Ragnarok. Remember that Odhinn spent years collecting prophecies and future tellings... surviving Ragnarok is a big focus of His. He's trying to save Himself from it... I'm sure He sees the sense in letter Baldr die now so that He can return later. Remember that Odhinn is the son of a frost giantess... He has the coldness it takes to see past paternal emotion.

And he had been replaced before, apparently at some point Odin either left for an extended period or was exiled, sources aren't quite clear, and Ullr took over as chief of the Aesir, apparently doing rather well at the job. At some point Odin came back and regained power, and his first action was to exile Ullr to the farthest reaches of Asgaard..

Where'd you get this bit from? Ullr does in fact take over while Odhinn is away... it's His appointed task. But the exile bit? Ullr is a Hunter deity, He lives in Ydalir, which is in the Yew forests of Asgardhr. I've not read of him being exiled before, or of any animosity between Ullr and Odhinn.

- - - Updated - - -

Two, I have no idea what if the Skuld appearing here is the Skuld from before, the Norn, and if she what she's doing here. Any idea Rae'ya?

Skuld rides with the Valkyries to keep a check on them. She ensures that their choices are in line with Her own and that they don't have anyone killed who the Nornir don't agree with. Skuld is the one who cuts a person's Thread when they die... no one dies without Her say so. Even Odhinn and His Valkyrires can't take a warrior who Skuld is not ready to cut from the Pattern.

Personally though, I consider this Valkyrie list to be a later addition, much the same as the dwarf name list. It doesn't really fit and it seems a bit arbitrary. Listing Skuld as a Valkyries is likely a symptom of that... as well as a symptom of the concept that Othinn and His word are 'Supreme Be All and End All In The Nine Worlds' (which is not true).

[Rae'ya]

31. On all sides saw I | Valkyries assemble,
Ready to ride | to the ranks of the gods;
Skuld bore the shield, | and Skogul rode next,
Guth, Hild, Gondul, | and Geirskogul.
Of Herjan's maidens | the list have ye heard,
Valkyries ready | to ride o'er the earth.

I mentioned this in my previous posts' answer to MoonRaven, but I reckon that the list of names is interpolated. If that's true then there's a line missing, because taking out the name list leaves only three lines with an odd repetition. The last line sounds odd anyway... perhaps there was only half a stanza left and someone finished it off randomly? Or perhaps the whole thing is a later addition. Either way it's slightly out of place and doesn't feel right.

32. I saw for Baldr, | the bleeding god,
The son of Othin, | his destiny set:
Famous and fair | in the lofty fields,
Full grown in strength | the mistletoe stood.

Here the Volva starts her prophecy regarding Baldr's death. It's pretty self explanatory. One thing about this passage is the odd way that the mistletoe is bought into it. It's unclear whether it is Baldr or the mistletoe that is standing in the fields fully grown. Yet in MoonRaven's translation it's not 'famous and fair' but 'frail and very fair', which brings that line away from Baldr, who was very fair but not considered frail. It's interesting that Bellows has translated ' as 'famous' when it actually means narrow or slender.

We can presume that it's the mistletoe (or mistletoe twig... as 'mistil' means mistletoe and 'teinn' means twig) referred to in the last two lines. Perhaps this is a reference to her seeing Baldr on one hand and the fatal mistletoe twig on the other... with inevitable orlog between them. In this sense, you could say that the entire escapade is already set and the mistletoe is already wrapped up in Baldr's orlolg.

33. From the branch which seemed | so slender and fair
Came a harmful shaft | that Hoth should hurl;
But the brother of Baldr | was born ere long,
And one night old | fought Othin's son.

Self explanatory. From the thin and harmless looking branch came a shaft (arrow, spear?) that Hodhr will chuck at Baldr. Then Baldr's brother (a reference to him being Othinn's son) will be born and fight Hodhr (aslo Othinn's son) after only one night.

I spoke about this in my previous post, so I wont go into it again here. lol

34. His hands he washed not, | his hair he combed not,
Till he bore to the bale-blaze | Baldr's foe.
But in Fensalir | did Frigg weep sore
For Valhall's need: | would you know yet more?

This is referring to Vali (not named here, but presumed from other sources)... basically he didn't rest until he killed Baldr's killer. That was the one thing that he'd been bought up to do... his purpose in life, and he carried it out with single minded focus. There is some UPG in the Northern Tradition that Othinn intended Vali to slay Loki, but that Rind taught him to slay Hodhr in revenge against Othinn for raping her. He wanted a son to avenge a son... she gave him a son to kill a son. And so Othinn loses two sons and gains another (who incidentally, is taken into Asgardhr and treated well, presumably because Othinn feels some chagrin over the part that He played in the whole thing).

Frigg, obviously, is very sad... She's lost both Baldr and Hodhr. Interestingly, Baldr is referred to here as 'Valhalla's woe'. We don't know much about Baldr other than He is beautiful and perfect and shining, is married to Nanna, is father of Forseti, lives in Breidalbik, dies as told above, and returns after Ragnarok (along with Hodhr, incidentally). So why is Valhalla linked to Baldr in this stanza?

And in the end you know what... serves the obnoxious Aesir right for throwing random shit at Baldr. "Let's prove our superiority and hurl missiles at our most beloved, shining man"... "haha look how smart we are, we outwitted the Nornir and stoped Baldr's death"... Oh dear.

35. One did I see | in the wet woods bound,
A lover of ill, | and to Loki like;
By his side does Sigyn | sit, nor is glad
To see her mate: | would you know yet more?

Now we're off on a different subject lol

It's possible that we're missing a stanza before here, because it seems like we've come in on the end of the tale where Loki is bound. The start of that tale is told at length in the Lokkasenna, but not the ending. Whereas here we possibly having the ending, but not the start or middle bits. Basically, Loki is bound in a cave with the bowels of his son (who is also named Vali and was torn to pieces by his brother, Narfi, who had been turned into a wolf by the vengeful Aesir). A snake is fastened above his head dripping venom onto his face. Sigyn sits by Loki's side, but is sad at the sight of her husband in such pain. She holds a bowl to catch the venom but has to empty it sometimes, and so Loki is burned by the venom at least sometimes.

That particular tale is another one that sometimes gets sanitised. The Aesir are cruel and very unjust in that story... transforming one of Loki's sons and killing the other for no reason other than their desire for revenge on Loki. And all because he told their faults to their faces and they finally had enough of him. Two innocent boys were ruined and Loki bound into eternal torture... because the Aesir couldn't face up to their own hypocrisy.

[Heka]

36. From the east there pours | through poisoned vales
With swords and daggers | the river Slith.
. . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . .
37. Northward a hall | in Nithavellir
Of gold there rose | for Sindri's race;
And in Okolnir | another stood,
Where the giant Brimir | his beer-hall had.


38. A hall I saw, | far from the sun,
On Nastrond it stands, | and the doors face north,
Venom drops | through the smoke-vent down,
For around the walls | do serpents wind.


39. I saw there wading | through rivers wild
Treacherous men | and murderers too,
And workers of ill | with the wives of men;
There Nithhogg sucked | the blood of the slain,
And the wolf tore men; | would you know yet more?

40. The giantess old | in Ironwood sat,
In the east, and bore | the brood of Fenrir;
Among these one | in monster's guise
Was soon to steal | the sun from the sky.

[MoonRaven]

will address your point I promise.


In all my editions there is a half verse here, first half of it appears to be missing, and I'm taking it along.

Is the Vali mentioned here then same Vali who kills Hodur? Not traditionally. By Snorri Vali is given as the name of one of Loki's two son's by Sigyn, the other is Narfe. When the gods decide to bind Loki, possibly for his complicity in Balder's death, possibly for insulting all of them at a feast (all he really did was tell them the truth about themselves), or either some combination of these two or something third entirely. The missing first half of this verse may have given a clue, unfortunately for us it is missing.
In Snorri's version the only material strong enough to hold Loki was the guts of one of his own children. So the gods, not wanting blood on their own hands, changed Narfe into a wolf and waited for him to savage his brother. After that happened they took Vali's guts and made it into ropes with which they bound Loki. In Snorri's version there is a serpent put above Loki's head, who constantly drips venom on him and his wife Sigyn has to hold a bowl over him to protect him, but when she has to empty the bowl the venom drips on Loki making him shudder and thus causing earthquakes. There is a few things that should be taken into account here though. One, there is no mention of a serpent in this poem, only that Loki is tied and that Sigyn sits watching over her husband which can mean a lot of things. Two, as already mentioned Snorri wanted the Old Norse myths appear as a misunderstanding of Christianity. Three, he had a serious obsession with using serpents to punish the 'evil'.



So was Loki 'evil'. No not really.

If we take the oldest stories he certainly appears to be more helpful than harmful. Yes he causes disruption, but is more due to his impulsiveness, quick temper and even quicker tongue than maliciousness on his part. And the gods always comes out either in a equal or better position than one they had before after Loki has 'fixed' the situation again. Actually Loki seem to have played the part of 'Trickster God' in Norse mythology. (I here use the word god by the line of reasoning of the Duck hypothesis, that is if it looks, quacks and waddles it's a duck. Loki hangs with the gods, they treat him like one of their own and he has god like powers, therefore he's a duck...erh god. There is no indication of him having had a cultic following in the Viking era, though see below for more.)

So if Loki wasn't evil why did he induce Hodur to kill Balder? As far as I can see there is two possible explanations for it.
The first has to do with the advent of Christianity. Even this poem wasn't set down until comparatively late in the Viking era, it is usually dated 1000 AD give or take 50 years, and many of elements in the story of Balder's death bears the mark of being under the influence of Christian myths, particularly as Snorri presents it, though the story itself is likely much older. The beginning of the Viking era is usually put to 750 AD or thereabouts, but at that point the Roman Church and the Irish monks had already introduced Christianity to a large part of continental Europe and the Anglo-Saxon tribes, particular the Irish monks had been successful but that's a story and a discussion for a thread. My point is that the Old Norse people were in all probability influenced by the stories and mindset of the Christians from a very early point, and that may have changed how they viewed Loki as well as his role in the scheme of things. How the early 'Vikings' or how people viewed Loki in the time before this era, these myths appear to have been kicking about long before 750 AD, we don't really know or if there was anyone that made sacrifices to him. That's the problem with temples as sacrificial places that are big fancy stone buildings, they have a tendency to decay and vanish from history.

Well, that was the, if you will, cultural analysis of Loki's action. Taking a look at his actions from, as my language teachers would have said, the internal logic of the story, I can come up with a different analysis too. As I just said Loki have often got the gods into trouble but he also solved the problems again, in fact it's due to him that many of the gods have their weapons and other iconic items; Odin's horse Sleipner, Frey's pig, heck he even got them Thor's hammer; not to mention, he's Odin's blood-brother. ( A word on the concept of blood-brothers. When you declared someone's your blood-brother, done usually by mixing blood from a wound cut in the arm, you declared that this person should be treated as if he were your brother by blood, even if he was technically born to different parents. And fighting with your blood-brother was as bad as fighting with your actual brother.) So an important man, who has done important things, yet he never really seem to get any credit for it, where Thor is hailed as the protector of the Aesir and Odin the lord of battle, Loki was continually shunted aside. Enough to make anyone bitter and resentful. It might have been a mad cap scheme on his part to regain their admiration, remember whenever he lost 'something' that belonged to the gods, they made him get it back. And after all, he was supposedly Hel's father, one assumes he could have used his paternal status to influence her to let Balder go.
Except the gods doesn't turn to him, Frigg uses Hermod instead and then her own powers to get Balder back. His scheme foiled, in a fit of pique, he refuses to cry over Balder thus making it impossible for him to return. That is if, and only if, he's and the giantess Thokk is the same, that coneection I think was only made by Snorri, and as previously mentioned he wasn't the most... reliable one on the subject of Loki.
But even now, rather than make Loki get Balder back, the gods bind him instead.

And that, if you ask me, is their biggest mistake, the beginning of Ragnarok is not the death of Balder, tragic as it is and as needless as it appears, but the binding of Loki. To me, the giants and the gods were not so much a case of chaos vs. order, but a case of the order of nature (the giants) vs. the order of humans (the gods), but the human order needs to adapt to the natural world, that is the gods need at least some of the giants on their side. And there are several, Gerd Frey's wife (what's a fertility god without nature after all), Njord's wife Skadi (and may I add that after the gods had killed Skadi's father and she wanted revenge, it was Loki

[MoonRaven]

Okay lots to say here... so I'm gonna start at the bottom and work back lol

I'll pick out single sentences only to orientate myself within the quoted post... I'm not trying to quote out of context, just honing in on the specifics lol



Only Odinists and Heathens... us Northern Traditioners have theories about this story and are not offended by it at all lol

The theory on this is that Odhinn in fact DID intend it to be Loki who was killedt, but Rind ensured that He was thwarted on that in retaliation for being raped and used against her will. Odhinn himself is unable to harm Loki because of their blood bond, but He thinks Himself smart enough to engineer someone else to do it for Him. However, He didn't count on the wrath of the frost giantess He used. Rind is staid to be a mistress of time, and that is how Her son was fully grown by day's end. She raised him to kill Hodur, not Loki, so that's what he did.

I an day?!? Blimey, talk about getting information across quickly :P sorry couldn't resist I really, really couldn't, my sarcastic side was too strong for me, I apologise. I truly need to learn to behave myself.

This all took place in a matter or a day or so... and the Aesir had hopes that Hela would allow Baldr to return to life. It took nine days for Hermod to walk the Helvegr, and so Baldr's body couldn't be burned before that. Everyone's in a panic... Othinn travelled to Rind at the same time that Frigg's envoy was going to Helheim. Othinn knew that the Hermod would fail, just as the attempt to secure Baldr's safety failed. His mind is on revenge while everyone else is still trying to save Baldr.

Which would still sum up to at least 18 days. I hope it was winter, otherwise keeping a body for nearly three weeks... not good. I really don't understand how the concept of time works in Norse mythology.

Where'd you get this bit from? Ullr does in fact take over while Odhinn is away... it's His appointed task. But the exile bit? Ullr is a Hunter deity, He lives in Ydalir, which is in the Yew forests of Asgardhr. I've not read of him being exiled before, or of any animosity between Ullr and Odhinn.

I really can't say where I got this. I think it might be a case of a childhood story that got supported by UPG and therefore I never really questioned it the way I do most things. Sort of like the theory of acceleration, since experience corroborates the theory, we had to get all the way to Einstein until Newton was disproven.
These stories are rife in Danish culture, particularly in children's literature. Seriously we even have several book series for children and a comic book series, no it has nothing to do with that Marvel abomination this one actually get a lot of it right and when it deviates it's mostly to create a whole and continuous story, plus a lot of other stuff to numerous to name here. In the adult section we have a history of the Danish nation titled 'Odins Hvisken' (Odin's Whispers). So these stories are anywhere and everywhere. And even though we a usually seen as being comfortably Lutheran nation most kids have a greater likelihood of being well acquainted with the Norse mythology than with the stories of the Bible.
So I have 30+ years of these stories in my backlog and this one could come from anywhere, it might even be my mother's embellishment on them. She did that a lot when she told them. Most of them were in hindsight obvious in the extreme, but some are harder to spot.
I don't have much contact with any of the male Aesir with exception of Ullr, him on the other hand I have quite a close relationship to. But the few times I have had to deal with Odin there have always been an underlying animosity that I got the impression was due to my close relationship with exactly Ullr. Whether the low key hostility, which really seems to be a one-way street from Odin towards Ullr, is actually due to the time Ullr took over the ruling seat or whether it is something else I have never asked, the precise reason never did seem all that important and it appeared to me as likely a reason as any so I assumed.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay verse 36


Here we travel to the land of the giants, which traditionally lay to the east. Another indication that we are there is the word 'eitr' which is translated in Heka's verse with poison but I have chosen on of its metaphorical translation which is hostile, though it can also mean bitter. I feel this is a better translation of the words meaning since we are dealing with a river who's waters are likely so cold putting your hand into it will feel like being cut by sharp blades.

One other thing, I really don't understand the translator at sacred texts. Sometimes he includes half verses, like here, and at others, like the one with Vali, he drops them, and I can't see any logic to when he chooses one over the other. It's not like excluding the Vali half-verse makes the poem make more sense, or including this for that matter. Any of you have any thoughts on the matter?

[MoonRaven]

Probably we are still in the land of the giants, but we are possibly closing in on the underworld, arriving in the next verse, since Sindra's hall is said to 'stand in the north' which is the traditional place of the underworld in Norse mythology.
An odd thing is that the hall stands in the north, but both Sindra, which means spark, and Okolnir, which literally means 'never cold', make one thing of warm places. Possibly a volcano? Though Nidavellum means 'plain of darkness' so we may be up around the polar circle somewhere.
Sindra's or sometimes Sindri's, line is taken to be a kenning for dwarves, a likely supposition since the only Sindri known to us was a dwarf. Brimir is generally taken to be a heiti for Aegir who's beer hall held a famous party where Loki insulted every last one of the gods. There are some though who equates him with Ymir citing the kenning 'Brimi's blood', used in verse 9 where, whee Brimi is a heiti for Ymir and pointing that the addition of an 'r' here is merely an indication of lack of uniform rules for spelling.


Now here we are in the underworld. According to Snorri this building stands in Hel but there is no corroboration of that and the underworld consists of far more than just Hel so... Snorri also gives this building as a place sinners were punish, but actually we don't have any indication, apart from his, of what it was used for or what it meant to the Old Norse people.

[MoonRaven]

The 'old one' referred to here is is generally concidered nameless. Though Snorri gives her name as Jarnvidja that is just a derivation of Jarnvidi which is the name of the forest. The Iron Wood supposedly got its name because all the trees have leaves/needles(some say it is a forest of evergreens either fir, spruce or both) that cuts like blades. All her children is supposedly wolves, some places given as monsters (trolls), and according to this Fenrir is their father, so they are Loki's grandchildren.
According to one story the name of the wolf who is supposed to devour the sun is Managarmr, one can only speculate if it is in any way tied to the dog Garmr who is supposedly tied outside the entrance to the underworld and who barks and howls every time a dead person arrives to descend. But according to different stories the sun, who is a girl/woman in them, is followed by two wolves, one running before her cart and another after. The one who 'leads' is named Hati (Hate) and the one who follows Skol (The Barking One) and it is the latter who is supposed to eat the sun at Ragnarok.
So you can take your pick as to which wolf it is.

[Ula]