Honour in todays combat.

[Hafthor]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

I truly believe that there is honor in today's combat. It has changed from the classical honor. After all as US military personal we have ROE that we have to follow. I also believe that our fallen brothers will forever have glory as we will always be talking about their deeds.

I've always considered myself a warrior, I enlisted in the Navy to follow in the foot steps of my grandfather a Seabee and I feel in the 12 years that I was in before I got medically discharged I served the Navy, my brothers and kin with honor. In fact I received an honorable discharge.

To us honor is defending your fellow brother/kin...glory would be taking a round/dying to protect them.

I think that the All-Father knows that times and war are forever changing and have adapted to these changes.

[Optimistic discord]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

To start, this is a really interesting thread and I have enjoyed reading all these varying opinions and thoughts.

Personally I think glory and honor in combat are sometimes confused. I agree with the people that say honor is defending your family and home and watching out for your fellow soldiers. Glory I think on the other hand is testing your prowess in battle against a worthy opponent. Is there any honor war? I don't really think so. Is there there glory to be found in war today? I'm inclined to think not. Typically (but not always) the side with the most advanced technology comes out on top.

Still though I like to believe that the gods take soldiers today. Although I think Its more of a matter of courage and willpower than it is skill in battle. If a soldier throws himself on a grenade to save his squad, he has something that surpasses skill with arms. To me it isn't about going down in a blaze of glory, its about be able to do what needs to be done, which perhaps is a sort of honor? That's what I think Odin wants in his warriors at the end of days, not soldiers who seek a chance to make a big show of their deaths, but warriors who are willing to do whatever it takes to attain victory.

Mind you, I'm fairly new to the Heathen/Odinist/Asatru way of thinking. I know I still have a lot to learn, this is just the opinion I've been able to form with what little I've learned.

I agree RE: what odin wants. Its why he cheats and sometimes kills off the side who should win so he gets the better troops.

Regarding glory, glory is just down to who can shout the loudest and leave the biggest legacy.
Its why bards and story tellers were such a commodity and so powerful, they could make or break a persons legacy with nothing more than a short song or story.

[Chris the Bold]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

Nations may not demonstrate an abundance of honor in battle or earn much glory from it. People still can.

I can agree with this.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

Typically (but not always) the side with the most advanced technology comes out on top.

On a national level, sure, sort of maybe. On a local level, you still get cases where, a technically inferior enemy has a major advantage over troops from a more powerful nation and you still see people pulling crazy ass stunts to try and blunt that advantage so that their unit doesn't get butchered. Be it Bryan Budd playing charge the enemy line on his own or Michael Murphy deciding that calling for help from cover is impossible and fighting his way out into the open so he can call in support for his people despite the issue that this made him effectively a sitting duck. Nations may not demonstrate an abundance of honor in battle or earn much glory from it. People still can.

[Chris the Bold]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

To start, this is a really interesting thread and I have enjoyed reading all these varying opinions and thoughts.

Personally I think glory and honor in combat are sometimes confused. I agree with the people that say honor is defending your family and home and watching out for your fellow soldiers. Glory I think on the other hand is testing your prowess in battle against a worthy opponent. Is there any honor war? I don't really think so. Is there there glory to be found in war today? I'm inclined to think not. Typically (but not always) the side with the most advanced technology comes out on top.

Still though I like to believe that the gods take soldiers today. Although I think Its more of a matter of courage and willpower than it is skill in battle. If a soldier throws himself on a grenade to save his squad, he has something that surpasses skill with arms. To me it isn't about going down in a blaze of glory, its about be able to do what needs to be done, which perhaps is a sort of honor? That's what I think Odin wants in his warriors at the end of days, not soldiers who seek a chance to make a big show of their deaths, but warriors who are willing to do whatever it takes to attain victory.

Mind you, I'm fairly new to the Heathen/Odinist/Asatru way of thinking. I know I still have a lot to learn, this is just the opinion I've been able to form with what little I've learned.

[Optimistic discord]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

I disagree. Conflict occurs fore every form of life, struggle for survival. But war is a very specific type of conflict waged against one's own species 'outgroup' in a manner that seeks to exterminate them for their own goals that are not necessairy related to survival tasks (like feeding, reproduction, etc) by very few species...ants, common chimpanzees (as opposed to pygmie chimps, aka bonobos), and humans among them.

I guess it all comes down to how people define war and how people define what causes them.

To echo what others have said (regarding the honour issue), as humans we seem amazingly prone to looking back at "olden times" and glorifying them.
War and conflict has always been a brutal matter.
I've made peace with the fact that our ancestors did things in battle that we today would view as horrific and brutal, I do not judge them for it.

If someone wants to follow an Odinist path, then that is their affair. I think we have lost sight of the fact that only a small percentage of the population followed such an extremist belief, the bulk of the population ( the farmers the merchants) had their own version of an afterlife, its just that only fragmented ideas of it remain.

[Heka]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

*Looks pointedly at "Someone"*

I'd chip into that if you started it. But then I have a long and complicated list of 'Northern Tradition Afterlife Options' depending on who you are, how you lived, how you died and who you serve. lol.

haha, I started that Voluspa thread remember! And look how active I've been since! I have another one I want to start now anyway, and I figure more of those afterlives will come up the more we get into the Eddas. So maybe later!

[anunitu]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

War as I said is a last resort,and even a war like ww2 can end up being a very bad idea in many ways. People do VERY bad things in war,and then cover them in the cloak of duty. War is always wrong sometimes,more because of the madness of humans than the reason for fighting.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

It does happen that there are "Necessary" wars like when WW2 began,there was little option than to fight and resist the madness that came out of Germany. To fight to protect is different than just fighting because you want to fight.

Well, with regard to WW2 all I can say is that the French are unlikely to forgive their allies, the British for scuttling the entire French fleet (and killing 2000of their allies) when the French surrendered. This was apparently to prevent the enemy from getting their hands on ships they could use.
I don't thing there is anything honourable about war whatsoever. Just sayin'

[thalassa]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

War is a fact of life practised in some form by all living organisms.
Every living thing competes for resources and engages in war of some form, we can try to rationalise what we do as being "for the good" but in the end it all comes down to resources and ego.

I disagree. Conflict occurs fore every form of life, struggle for survival. But war is a very specific type of conflict waged against one's own species 'outgroup' in a manner that seeks to exterminate them for their own goals that are not necessairy related to survival tasks (like feeding, reproduction, etc) by very few species...ants, common chimpanzees (as opposed to pygmie chimps, aka bonobos), and humans among them.

[Luce]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

I've seen quite a few Heathens say things along the lines of "Anybody in the military will not go to Valhalla because there is no honour in today's combat."
I think its not true because I think Odin is an extremely wise god, and because he is wise he understands that the times of war have changed. I'm positive he doesn't expect Heathens to charge in with a bearded war axe to fight the insurgents or any enemies with fully automatic rifles, rocket propelled grenades, armoured vehicles etc. etc.

What are your opinions on this?

Nobody from the dark ages gets to go to Valhalla, because they'd stopped using flint weapons and took all the honor out of warfare.

And shields? WTF?

[Wednesday]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

Raeya, the Freya thing occured to me after the Sandy Hook shooting. Its mainly UPG, though. Also, in current events, the chemical warfare reported in Damascus and the images of little children as the fatal victims of this "battle". Just seems like Freyja's domain to scoop them up and carry them forward more than Odin's.

[Optimistic discord]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

War is always mans(humans) last worst resort. War comes when people give up on talking and begin the killing. It does happen that there are "Necessary" wars like when WW2 began,there was little option than to fight and resist the madness that came out of Germany. To fight to protect is different than just fighting because you want to fight.

War is a fact of life practised in some form by all living organisms.
Every living thing competes for resources and engages in war of some form, we can try to rationalise what we do as being "for the good" but in the end it all comes down to resources and ego.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

Honestly, I don't think there is any honor in war (as opposed to individual or group actions in combat), period. Historically, I actually think it was worse than it is today. ...And, I could come up with a giant list of reasons, but right now I'm getting ready for a meeting, lol.

I tend to agree, which is why the whole thing about modern war being less honorable than historical war just kind of boggles my brain.

It's a complicated thing, when you consider the reasons for war and conflict. Perhaps fighting against an oppressive and tyrannical government could be considered honorable. Perhaps it's all a matter of perspective.

- - - Updated - - -

" . Does Odhinn collect women and children who have 'bttled' famine and disease and prepare them for Ragnarok by feasting and fighting in Valhalla? No."

Just an aside...Women and children are often casualties of war and I've come to the conclusion that they are the half that Freyja takes off the field.

This is a really interesting concept. Little is said about Freyja's part in the choosing of the slain aside from that she has first pick, gets half the slain and tends to take all the women who aren't sworn to Odhinn.

It's especially interesting when you consider the differences between Valhalla and Folkvangr. Valhalla and the Einherjar are obviously all about the warriors and Ragnarok... they spend all day fighting and feasting, showing off their skills, killing each other and being resurrected. Whereas Folkvangr is supposedly a place of peace and rest, of contemplation and quiet practice. While there are clear pre-requistites for entry into Valhalla, there aren't for Folkvangr, and it is even intimated that Folkvangr is open to women who die of other means. Food for thought.

- - - Updated - - -

You're also all getting me very interested in all the different afterlives! Someone wanna start a thread?

*Looks pointedly at "Someone"*

I'd chip into that if you started it. But then I have a long and complicated list of 'Northern Tradition Afterlife Options' depending on who you are, how you lived, how you died and who you serve. lol.

[anunitu]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

War is always mans(humans) last worst resort. War comes when people give up on talking and begin the killing. It does happen that there are "Necessary" wars like when WW2 began,there was little option than to fight and resist the madness that came out of Germany. To fight to protect is different than just fighting because you want to fight.