I do not like the term Shamanism. It was borrowed ( stolen if you like ) to describe and altered state of consciousness in a religious ritual of the Tungusic tribe where a Shaman would use the altered state of consciousness in their religious act. Anthropologists identified similar activity across the world and in all probability in the ancient Germanic and Celtic world. But they should have kept it as altered state of consciousness with the associate pattern for each particular group. Using the word Shaman was a mistake as it became seen as something you could be. I believe we can use altered states of consciousness but that does not make everyone a Shaman. Now I have seen psychologists offering classes to become a Shaman to help you patients by calling on their guiding spirits. You pay for the classes and books and in only a few weeks you to can become a Shaman to help others. Sorry but it was a mistake to apply the word the way it was instead of just describing the technique with the explanation that it is in association with other ritual practices specific to each tribal beliefs.
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The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?
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Opinionated
- Jun 2013
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Re: Pagan Pet Peeves
Originally posted by Medusa View Postuhoh........
At the very least we should actually say 'neoshamanism'. It's one of the major points of dissention amongst the neoshamanist community. Trust me... shamanists have argued this point FAR more than non-shamanists have.
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sea witch
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Re: Pagan Pet Peeves
Originally posted by Rae'ya View PostTechnically, he's mostly correct.
At the very least we should actually say 'neoshamanism'. It's one of the major points of dissention amongst the neoshamanist community. Trust me... shamanists have argued this point FAR more than non-shamanists have.
I think of it like this: What do Kleenex, Band-aids, Tylenon, Motrin, Xerox, and Coke (among others) have in common? Here in the US, the brand name isn't necessairly used to indicate the brand name per se, but the entire product--tissues, peel and stick bandages, acetomenophen, ibuprophen, copy machines, and soda. (These are pretty US specific brands so it may not translate exactly)
English is a borrowing language. There's no handy word in our language for the phenomenon we've organically "decided" to call "Shamanism" after the actual Shaman of a specific culture, so we borrowed the term. Sort of like beserk from beserkers and ninja-ing something from ninjas and assassins... I don't have a problem with the evolution of language in this manner--borrowing terminology from other languages to describe something your own language has no word for is pretty universal. It would be different (IMO) if we already had a word that filled this function.Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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Re: Pagan Pet Peeves
Originally posted by thalassa View PostI think of it like this: What do Kleenex, Band-aids, Tylenon, Motrin, Xerox, and Coke (among others) have in common? Here in the US, the brand name isn't necessairly used to indicate the brand name per se, but the entire product--tissues, peel and stick bandages, acetomenophen, ibuprophen, copy machines, and soda. (These are pretty US specific brands so it may not translate exactly)
English is a borrowing language. There's no handy word in our language for the phenomenon we've organically "decided" to call "Shamanism" after the actual Shaman of a specific culture, so we borrowed the term. Sort of like beserk from beserkers and ninja-ing something from ninjas and assassins... I don't have a problem with the evolution of language in this manner--borrowing terminology from other languages to describe something your own language has no word for is pretty universal. It would be different (IMO) if we already had a word that filled this function.
The problem I think lies within the pagan community itself. Many within what might be recognized as shamanic like practices tend to use neo-shamanism or distance themselves from Shamanism as a title all together. Yet the general pagan community found it as a buzz word and now it's used in such a broad sense that it means nothing really.
In that regard it has little to do with being introduced into English as a concept other than a new buzz word or filler material for the many 101 books that sought out something new to make them different. In some regards no different than the English academic notion of "Medicine" and how it was equated to North American supposed shamanic practices. So today you see the word medicine frequently used with totems, power animals, spirit animals and guides, etc.
Not because of being introduced into general language but because some author tried to add an extra buzz word and the academic definition is implied even though not used. In comparison I think it not much different than the current infusion of "Tulpa" as a word for though constructs that has taken hold. It was found to be foreign and added a mystical aspect that Though Form or construct didn't have. Yet they are the same thing.I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!
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Re: Pagan Pet Peeves
Originally posted by thalassa192393There's no handy word in our language for the phenomenon we've organically "decided" to call "Shamanism" after the actual Shaman of a specific culture, so we borrowed the term. Sort of like beserk from beserkers and ninja-ing something from ninjas and assassins... I don't have a problem with the evolution of language in this manner--borrowing terminology from other languages to describe something your own language has no word for is pretty universal. It would be different (IMO) if we already had a word that filled this function.
We actually have hundreds of words for 'shaman'... each form of shamanism has it's own terminology from within that culture to describe both it's practices and it's practitioners. Even if we look at a purely English practice, the term 'hedgerider' describes an English folk 'shamanist'.
Michael Harner is responsible for bringing the buzzword 'shamanism' into the neopagan community. I don't deny that it's a useful term which helps neoshamanists recognise each other... and it's certainly useful for helping non shamanists understand what it is that we do. But the ONLY shamanic practice that doesn't have it's own terminology is core-shamanism, as popularised by Harner.
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The Gaze of the Abyss
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Re: Pagan Pet Peeves
Originally posted by Rae'ya View PostWhile I agree with your general premise, this is not entirely accurate.
We actually have hundreds of words for 'shaman'... each form of shamanism has it's own terminology from within that culture to describe both it's practices and it's practitioners. Even if we look at a purely English practice, the term 'hedgerider' describes an English folk 'shamanist'.
Michael Harner is responsible for bringing the buzzword 'shamanism' into the neopagan community. I don't deny that it's a useful term which helps neoshamanists recognise each other... and it's certainly useful for helping non shamanists understand what it is that we do. But the ONLY shamanic practice that doesn't have it's own terminology is core-shamanism, as popularised by Harner.Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.
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Re: Pagan Pet Peeves
Originally posted by B. de Corbin View PostI think, because of the specific examples used, Thalassa was referring to a general, generic term for a set of items with certain elements in common. The "...hundreds of words for 'shaman'... each form of shamanism has it's own terminology from within that culture to describe both it's practices and it's practitioners" is specific. Useful for a specialist or an anthropologist (who would already be using those terms), but not particularly useful in general conversation where the average person would not be expected to know (or need to use) the specific, technical term.
But that doesn't change that fact that the statement that we have no existing terminology and therefore had to borrow it is not entirely accurate. If you take away core-shamanism, the term 'shamanism' is not one that is particularly useful or accurate to traditional or extant practices. Before Harner popularised core-shamanism and the buzz word (to borrow MonSno's wording) spread within the neopagan community, people used the term that was specific to their practice. It wasn't until core-shamanism that we actually required a word that described a more general concept of these practices... because it wasn't until core-shamanism that we had a non-specific set of practices that were removed from their cultural context (and therefore removed from their original cultural terms).
Obviously, I use the terms 'shamanism' and 'shamanist' myself... they are useful terms within the modern neopagan community. But I am also very aware of the history of the terminology and of the controversy within the neoshamanic community. The reality is that the terms are now ingrained within our modern neopagan usage, and I don't necessarily think that should change.
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Re: Pagan Pet Peeves
Originally posted by Rae'ya View PostWhich is exactly why I agree with the general premise and think that it's a useful term for helping neopagans know what we're talking about.
But that doesn't change that fact that the statement that we have no existing terminology and therefore had to borrow it is not entirely accurate. If you take away core-shamanism, the term 'shamanism' is not one that is particularly useful or accurate to traditional or extant practices. Before Harner popularised core-shamanism and the buzz word (to borrow MonSno's wording) spread within the neopagan community, people used the term that was specific to their practice. It wasn't until core-shamanism that we actually required a word that described a more general concept of these practices... because it wasn't until core-shamanism that we had a non-specific set of practices that were removed from their cultural context (and therefore removed from their original cultural terms).
Obviously, I use the terms 'shamanism' and 'shamanist' myself... they are useful terms within the modern neopagan community. But I am also very aware of the history of the terminology and of the controversy within the neoshamanic community. The reality is that the terms are now ingrained within our modern neopagan usage, and I don't necessarily think that should change.I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!
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Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?
You know, I have been studying a very long time and this argument on Shamanism/Shaman being the correct term or not has been coming up only over the last few years, what does it matter if it gets the message across? I grew up on the Res and all the shamans and elders I have ever talked to just said shaman unless they were speaking their native tongue, which most don't anymore, this goes for the ones in Alaska and the ones in Oklahoma. Where did this argument really come from in the first place?
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sea witch
- Oct 2005
- 11651
- relational theophysis and bioregional witchery
- coastal Georgia
- *a little bad taste is like a nice dash of paprika*
Re: Pagan Pet Peeves
Originally posted by Rae'ya View PostBut that doesn't change that fact that the statement that we have no existing terminology and therefore had to borrow it is not entirely accurate. If you take away core-shamanism, the term 'shamanism' is not one that is particularly useful or accurate to traditional or extant practices. Before Harner popularised core-shamanism and the buzz word (to borrow MonSno's wording) spread within the neopagan community, people used the term that was specific to their practice.Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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The Gaze of the Abyss
- Feb 2007
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- Alchemist and Neo-American Redneck Buddhist
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Re: Pagan Pet Peeves
Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post?..Before Harner popularised core-shamanism and the buzz word (to borrow MonSno's wording) spread within the neopagan community, people used the term that was specific to their practice. It wasn't until core-shamanism that we actually required a word that described a more general concept of these practices... because it wasn't until core-shamanism that we had a non-specific set of practices that were removed from their cultural context (and therefore removed from their original cultural terms)...
In many ways this is a meaningful discovery. It tells us something about how the mind/brain operates and about how it processes certain types ineffable experience, for example.
Terms for categories do not harm specific instances in a well ordered brain. What they do is open new avenues for exploration.Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.
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Opinionated
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Re: Pagan Pet Peeves
Originally posted by thalassa View PostI got shamanism from anthropology class---we had to read Mircea Eliade's Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstacy. I'd never heard of Michael Harner until I started hanging out around here.
I'd like to point out again that I'm not disputing the use of the term, nor the validity of using the term (which would frankly be hypocritical of me)... just the idea that we don't already have terms for those practices and practioners. You said that 'it would be different if we already had a word for it'... well we do. We don't have a word for core-shamanism (which is what I was getting at bringing Harner into it) but we have plenty of words for indigenous and traditional forms of shamanism and shamans (extant and otherwise).
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Opinionated
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Re: Pagan Pet Peeves
Originally posted by B. de Corbin View PostIn that case, I would like to suggest that developing a general term for a category of practices indicates an advance in knowledge - the realization that a wide variety of practices from a multitude of cultures share a set of similar traits.
In many ways this is a meaningful discovery. It tells us something about how the mind/brain operates and about how it processes certain types ineffable experience, for example.
Terms for categories do not harm specific instances in a well ordered brain. What they do is open new avenues for exploration.
The contoversy over the term lies in the fact that the Tungus speaking people from whom the word 'shaman' was borrowed (the Evenks peoples) are an extant culture with a living, breathing shamanic tradition. Technically, us using the term 'shaman' is no different to us using the term 'Sun Dance' to describe a non Lakota ritual. Cultural appropriation is considered harmful if it involves a living culture.. but no one seems to care about that in respect to shamanism as a term, perhaps because the shamans of Siberia and northern Asia aren't here to point it out.
And yes, at this point I'm pretty much playing Devil's Advocate. I use the terms, but I'm acutely aware of the hypocrisy of that coming from a person who is sensitive to cultural appropriation. I wish we had another term to use to describe these techniques when stripped of their cultural context, but I'm enough of a realist to accept that we never will. It's part of modern usage, and even if academia manages to reverse the trend within anthropology, the neopagan community never will.
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sea witch
- Oct 2005
- 11651
- relational theophysis and bioregional witchery
- coastal Georgia
- *a little bad taste is like a nice dash of paprika*
Re: Pagan Pet Peeves
Originally posted by Rae'ya View PostThen you got it from an anthropologist, and Monsno has already pointed out the controversy over the term in modern academia. You should then have also read the actual traditional terms for these practices and practitioners (I've read Eliade too and his is the comprehensive of the academic texts on my shelf). Michael Harner was an anthropologist long before he was the father of core-shamanism, and it was his academic background that's responsible for his appropriation of the term.
I'd like to point out again that I'm not disputing the use of the term, nor the validity of using the term (which would frankly be hypocritical of me)... just the idea that we don't already have terms for those practices and practioners. You said that 'it would be different if we already had a word for it'... well we do. We don't have a word for core-shamanism (which is what I was getting at bringing Harner into it) but we have plenty of words for indigenous and traditional forms of shamanism and shamans (extant and otherwise).Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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