Christopaganism

[callmeclemens]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

Well, I haven't found a balance. I'd encourage you to reach out to Azvanna about it, she seems to have a good thing going there.

[Wenny]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

It seems to me that people asking for Christo-Paganism is really more about having trouble detaching themselves from the religion they were born and raise into. Not because they still fully believe in it's teachings but for the reason that they want the cake and eat it too. They are willing to explore while still keeping a foot on the treshold. I can understand that, it was also for me very difficult to ''let go'', even when I realized Christianity no longer made sense on intellectual and spiritual levels.

People are free to believe what they want, as long as it doesn't harm others, that's a Pagan motto but to be honest, in my opinion the Bible and Paganism doesn't fit very well together. For one, it prohibits such beliefs, condemned the use of magick, witchcraft ect. So I think you would have to be very selective of it's teachings, while discarding what doesn't fit your beliefs.

I guess the real question is, do you truly believe in the bottom of your heart that Jesus Christ is your savior? If your response is positive, then it is up to you to make things work as it should. No one can really do it for you.

I wouldn't say that it is because they want to have cake and eat it to, some may be like me and if they were to come out Wiccan then face ostracize from family, friends and work (not that work can fire me but it can be hard to answer questions when you yourself are still finding trying to answer them). It can be a transition phase or where they find themselves.

The Bible was written by man and with that comes man's faults. Thal has pointed out that Jesus did pretty much everything the Bible condemned. I can see why that cherry picking passages is wrong but I know other who do that with Scott Cunningham books.

[callmeclemens]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

It can't be overlooked that while most "neo pagan" faiths invite openness Christianity in many cases simply does not. There are so many beautiful ideas in Christianity though ultimately true Christianity is not as flexible as some want it to be.

[thalassa]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

It can't be overlooked that while most "neo pagan" faiths invite openness Christianity in many cases simply does not. There are so many beautiful ideas in Christianity though ultimately true Christianity is not as flexible as some want it to be.

The problem is that, in a religion of over 38,000 denominations, which ones are the "true" Christianity? Chrisitians can't even come to a consensus on that... The only thing they all have in common is that they all do religion with Jesus--the rest is just window dressing.. We need to stop thinking of them as a monolithic religion, just because they are monotheistic.

[Wonder]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

I wouldn't say that it is because they want to have cake and eat it to, some may be like me and if they were to come out Wiccan then face ostracize from family, friends and work (not that work can fire me but it can be hard to answer questions when you yourself are still finding trying to answer them). It can be a transition phase or where they find themselves.

I understand what you mean, Texas is part of the Bible Belt. There is a conservative mindset around there.

If your family is willing to ostracize you because of your beliefs, then don't speak about them. Keep a low profile yet don't repress them. I mean, why taking the Christo-Pagan path only by fear of displeasing? Obviously their own beliefs are harming you. Either way you are stuck into pretending to be something you are not.

[Azvanna]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

Well, I haven't found a balance. I'd encourage you to reach out to Azvanna about it, she seems to have a good thing going there.

I feel famous! Great to see you back Clemens!

The reason it seems I have a good thing going on is because I'm happy to be wrong.

I would really love to meet a Christo-pagan irl to see how they live out their faith. I think it would be a lonely road.

As for my own beliefs, I believe that God is in everything and everything physical is manifested within God, but we can't see all of God. It's half a step away from Atheism really (if everything is divine, is anything divine?). Anyway, it's that belief which lead me to look into paganism. I want to know all about God. There were Bible verses which lead me to this belief, but mainly sheer exasperation.
A video that goes for 11 minutes will give you a good idea of the terminology of panentheism, its scope and implications: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xki03G_TO4 I fall between strong and weak panentheism. I'm not sure God would be expressed in fullness without creation.

So, my outlook which I think would be compatible with a Christo-pagan is that the Bible is inspired of God, but not infallible. All literature about gods are the human attempt to describe and define their experiences with the divine. All of creation is an expression of the divine and deserves reverence.

As for the practice of witchcraft, there are similarities in the attitudes between prayer and spellwork. For example, there is a whole thread here dedicated to the discussion of 'the item or the idea' with a few of the more senior of this community commenting that their success in spellwork relies on their will. To quote Tylluan Penry in her book 'Magic on the Breath'

But the thing that really makes the magic wok is simplicity itself - our belief, our will.

You start where you want to finish up, and it's this way in prayer, too. The similarities are there, but the major difference I spot is the difference in attitude. A practitioner of witchcraft may be seen to be taking things into her own hands, whereas someone who prays instead could be seen to be trusting her fate to a higher power. Prayer can tend to be more about aligning with the mind of God whereas spellwork may be more about getting what you want.

How I blend christian aspects with pagan aspects:
Keep definitions loose.
A belief of 'all in God, God in all.'
Don't look to external measures for ultimate truth/guidance (eg other people or sacred texts).
In community, I model respect and am resolved not to argue. I allow people their space to talk and let them know I have listened, which is mostly what they want anyway.
I have adopted varying methods of prayer.

I wish you well on your Christo-pagan path! It may be short-lived or long-lived, but the main thing is growth. Don't let anyone put you down for living out your faith the best way you know how.

[callmeclemens]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

Azv,

Now in understanding your beliefs I'm assuming you are a Trinitarian and believe that God, and Jesus are one. I could see a person believing that Christ is the literal "son" of God could additionally muddle things.

[Azvanna]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

I think the major theology a christo-pagan would need to consider would be the human condition and the role of Jesus. You've got to work those out for yourself because that will be the defining point of your faith. It encapsulates what you're aiming to do and how. It's easy for me as my beliefs aren't too far away from mainstream Christianity, but I imagine it would get more difficult to reconcile a sacrificial death and resurrection without having something to reach for.

And yeah, I believe in a trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit or even Father, Child and Mother.

[Wenny]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

I understand what you mean, Texas is part of the Bible Belt. There is a conservative mindset around there.

If your family is willing to ostracize you because of your beliefs, then don't speak about them. Keep a low profile yet don't repress them. I mean, why taking the Christo-Pagan path only by fear of displeasing? Obviously their own beliefs are harming you. Either way you are stuck into pretending to be something you are not.

Very true. I found it has help me grasp concepts that I didn't understand in Christianity.

[Norse_Angel]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

Ooooh learning time for me I guess. Please correct me, but isn't paganism defined as any polytheistic religion that has no ties to Christianity?
Being a heathen, I am technically a pagan, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[thalassa]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

Ooooh learning time for me I guess. Please correct me, but isn't paganism defined as any polytheistic religion that has no ties to Christianity?
Being a heathen, I am technically a pagan, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Not really...words evolve.

Etymologically speaking, its Latin parent word (paganus) means something akin to "rustic". A later connotation, by Tertullian and Augustine was for a non-Christian follower of the Roman religion (because those were usually rural peoples). Historically speaking, the word pagan has meant (at various times and contexts) a person that is not a follower of an Abrahamic faith, a hedonist, an atheist or nonreligious person, or an uncivilized person. At the turn of the 20th century, due to the influence of Romanticism (particularly in poetry), pagan/paganism came to mean something akin to earth-worship or reverence for nature. Additionally, not all historical paganisms have been strictly polythesitic--it didn't last long, but Egypt had a monotheistic pharaoh, Emperor Julian of Rome believed in an overarching "Supreme Power", and the Greeks (through out their ancient history) had a wide variety of views on the nature of divinity that ranged from atheism to pantheism to polytheism. Theological pluralism is probably a better description of historic pagan and contemporary Pagan ideas about deity than strict polytheism, as most Pagans tend to be anything from polytheists to pantheists to earth-worshippers (terratheists?).

In a modern context, as a umbrella term for a diverse group of religions, contemporary Paganism (which should be capitalized as it is a distinct religious movement and a proper noun) is (as accurate as I've been able to get) probably best defined as a polythetic term for a modern set of religious beliefs and practices that arise from our ideas about ancient religious traditions (which are often, but not always pre-Christian Indo-European in origin). Pagans (on the net) like to bitch and moan and debate the term (we have such a debate on this very forum) all the time and who can use it, etc (honestly they sound like Christians arguing over who is a "true Christian"), but from a purely academic (and pragmatic) standpoint, the generally accepted definition of Paganism is something like this one by anthropologist Sabina Magliocco:

This religious movement, which emerged in Europe in the early 20th century, but now has reached worldwide diffusion, finds inspiration in the pre-Christian religious once practiced by the peoples of Eurasia, North Africa, and the Near East, as well as by indigenous religions from other parts of the globe. Modern Pagans revive, re-create, and experiment with elements from those religions in order to create meaningful ways of relating to nature and the sacred.

And, when it comes to Christianity...well, synchronization on that front has been happening through out history.

[Little Star]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

I think the major theology a christo-pagan would need to consider would be the human condition and the role of Jesus. You've got to work those out for yourself because that will be the defining point of your faith. It encapsulates what you're aiming to do and how. It's easy for me as my beliefs aren't too far away from mainstream Christianity, but I imagine it would get more difficult to reconcile a sacrificial death and resurrection without having something to reach for.

I think this is a good point. It kind of irks me when people lump Jesus together with Osiris, Dionysus, etc. as sort of a generic dying and rising God. The central idea may be similar, but Christian ideas about sin and salvation develop it in such a different way that erasing that difference seems awkward. Jesus died for your sins; Osiris died to ensure the continuity of life. It's not a huge difference, but it is a palpable one.

[Gas Mask]

Christopaganism

My mother has beliefs combining Christianity and Paganism. I suppose that makes her a Christopagan?

Does anyone else have experience with Christopagans and/or Christopaganism? I don't share their beliefs, but I am curious about what sort of things they might believe and how they might combine their beliefs.

[thalassa]

Re: Christopaganism

We have another thread on this somewhere...I'll try to find it and combine them, as some of the conversation is pertinent (ETA--threads merged!!!).

Some of it is also very dabate-y. Christo-Paganism (and all its offshoots) is pretty divisive and controversial.

IMO: I've seen it done thoughtfully, so I know that it can be done well. If that is what floats someone's boat, that's a-ok with me. If it "neither picks my pocket or breaks my leg" (as Thomas Jefferson would say), I'm not one to care.


MOD NOTE TO EVERYONE IN ADVANCE: PLAY NICE! IF YOU CAN'T PLAY NICE DON'T PLAY AT ALL.

[anunitu]

Re: Christopaganism

Ohhh,green,did I miss something Thal???