Grandmother at 23

[DanieMarie]

http://de.news.yahoo.com/34/20110308/twl-oma-mit-23-juengste-grossmutter-der-6ae0455.html

I know a couple of you speak German, but for those that don't I'll paraphrase it:

A girl in Romania just became a grandmother at 23. She had her daughter at 12, and now her daughter just had a baby at 11.

It also references a girl who recently became England's youngest grandmother at 29...she had her daughter at 14, and her daughter had a baby at 15.

WTF?

[Dez]

Re: Grandmother at 23

I read a similar article (can't seem to find it now :P) but it implied that the family was Roma, and that very young relationships are the cultural norm?

[Celest]

Re: Grandmother at 23

OMG...that just seems so wrong

[DanieMarie]

Re: Grandmother at 23

I read a similar article (can't seem to find it now :P) but it implied that the family was Roma, and that very young relationships are the cultural norm?

I guess so. That would make sense....the Roma population have some MAJOR problems in general. The great grandmother was interviewed and was 40 herself, so she would have been 17 when she had her daughter.
Their culture gets romanticized a lot in north america but it's FULL of huge issues...this isn't the only one....I'd say low education is the worst which probably plays into it, and it's really tough because European countries, especially ones such as Germany, try to get these people to put their kids in school and learn the local language and stuff, but it just doesn't happen. I'm a bit torn about it because, on one hand, in places like Canada such measures resulted in huge disasters, but on the other hand this isn't the same situation and European culture hasn't been transient or nomadic for at least 2 thousand years, so it doesn't really mesh well, and we're also not talking about a culture moving in and imposing their values on people, but rather a group of people in modern cities who choose to be transients. I think it's a tough call though. It definitely causes major problems but no one really knows what to do.

The case in England was disturbing though. She was 14 and she says in the article that her worst fear was her daughter repeating her mistakes, and her daughter still got pregnant at 15.

---------- Post added at 07:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 PM ----------

Wow run-on sentence much....

[thalassa]

Re: Grandmother at 23

I read that article too...thats just sad.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Grandmother at 23

I just think, what kind of life are they going to have like that? In continental Europe you can't do ANYTHING without a basic education, and the system is demanding enough that I don't think it's common that people who have kids in their teens (especially THAT early) would manage to finish.

[Raphaeline]

Re: Grandmother at 23

Thank you for translating this for me, Google. You made everything clearer.

Rifca Stanescu was at the tender age of 12 years mother. Daughter Maria took her hand, then with 11 in 2009 to a baby world. The good advice from Rifca, not merely to repeat the mistakes of the mother and, instead, in complete silence, the school bore fruit, did not appear at Maria. Mama Rifca fell as 11-year-old already in just two years older Ionel Stanescu. Not even a real teenager, made Mary also early grave. With ten married the girl and gave barely a year later, their child's life.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Grandmother at 23

Ahhh Google Translate....so awkward!

[Medusa]

Re: Grandmother at 23

Children do what parents do and not what parents say.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Grandmother at 23

I dunno...I kind of feel that it's how these things are approached. We had really good and early sex ed where I come from, but it was also a well off area, which could explain the low teen pregnancy rate as well. Berlin, however, is not so economically hot and teen pregnancy is still really low and I think it has a lot to do with how teenagers, and teen sex is approached. Teens here aren't treated like children so much. Not like adults, but not like children either. It's just understood and accepted that they're going to do things like have sex and drink, and so the focus isn't on trying to get this behaviour to stop but on educating them on how to do it safely. Sex ed starts early and birth control is VERY easy to access. People also talk about sex and sexuality quite openly. It's just a very different attitude....you're not so sheltered from it. There aren't really any public nudity laws and women can sunbathe topless in any park, and no one feels like it's hurting the children. You see nudity on prime time TV, magazine covers (like scientific ones) and sexuality doesn't really earn an 18+ rating unless it's hardcore porn (seriously...soft porn is 16+....it takes hardcore porn or violence to earn an 18+ rating).

I think it all helps. It's just a different (and in my opinion, better) attitude.

[Maythe]

Re: Grandmother at 23

I remember reading that three quarters of girls who are 'sexually active' before they are 14 have been sexually abused, so there's a pretty good chance this girl and her mother are both victims of abuse.

[Dez]

Re: Grandmother at 23

I remember reading that three quarters of girls who are 'sexually active' before they are 14 have been sexually abused, so there's a pretty good chance this girl and her mother are both victims of abuse.

I wonder, though...

I agree that it's highly possible. At the same time, though, those statistics are usually based on Northern European or standard Western European models of thought, in which it is assumed that someone who is 14 or younger will only have sexual experiences due to previous exposure to sexuality, going on to "act out", in exchange for attention.

This model breaks down when you look at other cultural models--African-American and various Caribbean cultures, for example, have a model of younger sexual activity as a norm. In other parts of the world, marriage has taken place at, or slightly preceding menses for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Even in Europe, until only a couple-hundred years ago, when adolescents started to be considered older children, rather then adults, it was common for a 13 year old girl to be married to a man much older then herself.

According to our modern cultural standards, that would automatically make any male who participated in this tradition an evil, twisted pedophile, yet we know that when something is a cultural standard, it is much more complex then that.

I wish we honestly knew more facts in this case. Since we don't, though, what we are looking at is a rift between modern society and an ancient cultural way of life. I personally would not like to see this sort of thing lead to efforts to control or forcefully modernize the Roma, even if I disagree with some practices. That is a recipe for a gaping wound with a bandaid on it similar to America's treatment of Native Indian tribes, or the Australian efforts to "mainstream" aboriginal tribes.

[Maythe]

Re: Grandmother at 23

I don't know if it's an 'official' distinction but I always think of a 'pedophile' as being someone attracted to pre-pubescent children (side note - so a pedophile might not be a child abuser if he or she doesn't act on the attraction), someone attracted to post pubescent children who are below the age of consent is a different matter. They may well be taking advantage of the child's inexperience and be a seriously nasty piece of work - but it's different to pedophilia IMO. So personally I wouldn't think of men in that culture as evil, twisted pedophiles. I might think the culture is oppressive towards women however, but that's a criticism of the culture itself not the individuals within it. Having said that to attempt to force change on any culture from the outside is a recipe for disaster. So there are no easy answers.

I wish I could remember where I got that stat from but it's almost certainly a US statistic, if not then it'll be European.

[Dez]

Re: Grandmother at 23

I actually agree with you on all points with that...very well said, hun.

That's a valid point, too, about pedophilia. It's not the approach that most Americans would take, though...particularly after the sexual abuse witch hunts in the 80's. Teenager fill a very strange role in American society. They're more often seen as needing to be protected from themselves and others then being capable of making important choices, IMO.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Grandmother at 23

The big reason most people want to see the Roma more integrated though is that they often don't follow the laws of the country they are in (of which they're usually citizens as well). I don't care what your culture is, you don't get to be outside the law. And the problem with having kids THIS young is that these children aren't educated and they grow up on these fringes and it perpetuates itself. It's a big socio economic problem and it can't really stay as is.