Manners, Morality, and Law

[KashakuTatsu]

Re: Manners, Morality, and Law

The big thing that makes stealing against the law is the same thing that makes prostitution against the law, you can't tax it or regulate it. Plus stealing hurts business's ability to thrive, if they don't make money to pay the government it's tax cut then it'll hurt both the business and the government. For smooth running of tax system and money for government programs (like the low income aide programs, street repair, education, etc) you have to be able to account for and tax all forms of income, as much as it sucks.

I have a problem with the golden rule leading society, due to individual differences even within society and nuclear family, the rule will be different for everyone. I've already explained I don't see a moral problem with most things people do, nor do I believe in a form of "harm none" so my golden rule really turns into "don't take my freedom and don't date exes of friends/family" all else becomes fair game. Someone else may have "don't steal, lie, murder, be violent, etc" but I see where those acts can become necessary for survival especially if you don't have a lot of money, I've done all but the one with no remorse in the name of survival. My family tried to raise me by the golden rule and christian ideals, but even from an early age I rejected them cause they didn't fit with what I felt was right. If I was allowed to follow my idea of the golden rule, murdering for fetish sake won't be wrong anymore and won't cause me to lose my freedom.

The idea of good judgment is just as subjective. What is good judgment for one wouldn't necessarily be good judgment for another. For some it may be good judgment to start dating around while married so they can find someone to go to right away when they leave their spouse, but for others it'd be a lack of judgment. It could be good judgment for one to drive home while buzzed so they don't get too drunk to drive, but to a cop it'll be bad judgment.

I agree we need to rid the laws that are solely moral based, like the laws against drinking/drugs, because they really don't do much for the running of society, just a control measure. Cause look, it still happens and there are countries with a lack of those laws with less crime, etc. Yes there'd be a period of people running ramped, but it won't be a taboo anymore so use will most likely drop after an adjustment period. How many drank more as a teen than after 21 cause it's not as fun anymore since there's no danger? Also how much are we wasting as tax payers to house people in jail with low rate drug crimes? Seriously it's a strain on the state economy.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Manners, Morality, and Law

The big thing that makes stealing against the law is the same thing that makes prostitution against the law, you can't tax it or regulate it.

Um, not really. I agree with the stealing part, but prostitution is legal here and in the Netherlands and it IS taxed and regulated like any other job. So it can be taxed and regulated, it just depends on if the government -wants- to do so.

Though that does really fit into the "morality is relative" argument. It's illegal in a lot of places because people find it "wrong" but legal in others because those places feel that if a woman wants to exchange sex for money, that's her choice (and I can only speak for Western Europe, but part of the "regulating" involves not just testing and taxing but also IDing and they have to actually want to be there....anything else is illegal and therefore also sketchy because then the customer doesn't know if they've been tested for STDs or not).

---------- Post added at 10:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 AM ----------

PS I think 21 as a drinking age doesn't do anyone any favours. You could probably phase it out (make it 20, then 19).

I can understand half of Canada's 19 because they don't want people drinking in high school, and if your birthday is in January or something you'd be 18 when you're still in high school. Sucks when your birthday is later in the year and your friends can all go out (especially in college when you'll likely have a few older friends anyway) and you have to stay home, but until the culture fits in more with continental Europe with accepting drinking as a part of social life ...it's not abnormal for a 15 year old to be allowed a glass of wine at a family dinner here, even though the drinking age for wine is 16, and even at a restaurant if the parents are there they usually wont question it because the judgment of the parents is more important in that case.

But anyway, I can understand how 19 works, but 21 doesn't really make any sense? It just seems that you have a lot of college kids drinking extremely irresponsibly when they'd be more moderate in Canada or over here (but Canada makes a better case because the culture with that sort of thing is more or less the same).

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Manners, Morality, and Law

Not necessarily. If you took an axe or a gun, say, from a man who was intending to use them to attack passers-by, that would technically be stealing, but not necessariy wrong on account of the fact that the theft would prevent a great evil...

Actually, Tylluan, this IS a moral issue, but it's so deeply built into your conciousness that you don't see it as such.

The idea that "preventing harm is good" is a moral idea. Without the base idea that "it is better to do A than allow B to happen" there would be no difference between allowing somebody to ax innocent people to death, and preventing it from happening. As soon as you include the concept of "better" or "right" in your thinking, you are thinking morally.

You won't, for instance, see a sparrow swooping down on a wasp to prevent it from laying it's eggs in the living body of a caterpiller, because - at least in this instance - the sparrow has no notion of right or wrong, and cannot, therefore, make a moral decision to prevent pain and suffering in the caterpillar.

Unless, maybe, the sparrow has though over the issue and decided that the life of wasp babies is of greater value to the world than that of a caterpillar. This would be moral reasoning.

But, somehow, I don't imagine that to be the case...

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Manners, Morality, and Law

For example, if people had good judgment, we wouldn't need laws against drunk driving - simply "driving dangerously" covers that just fine. So then we get into the questions of how you can make something against the law for the people with poor to no judgment, while not screwing those that have GOOD judgment (I've got news for you - generally the people that have good judgment are the ones that get fucked).

Thoughts?

The problem with "good judgment" is that the term is too vague. It's clear in the example you gave, but in other cases, it's unclear - for example, if I want to start a company, and need capital, I could determine that the quickest, most effective way of raising that capital is to rob a bank. If I plan out the robbery, execute it, and don't get caught, I've exercised good judgment. I've achieved my goal with minimum bad effects for me. (this isn't that far fetched, by the way - there have been revolutionary groups working within the U.S. who used this kind of thinking - the Symbionese Liberation Army, comes to mind, and white supremacist groups have used this method)


However, if I operate through a sense of respect, I won't violate somebody else's property rights in order to achieve my personal goal - if I respect them, I must respect their ownership of certain property. I can't take it away through theft.

In all honesty, it is possible to twist the idea of respect out of shape - for instance, I respect Mr. Y, and want him to be "saved" therefore it is necessary that I force him to convert to religion X. However, since this demonstrates a lack of respect for all of Mr. Y's personal choices - as well as his person, the sophistry is much less convincing.

[KashakuTatsu]

Re: Manners, Morality, and Law

Um, not really. I agree with the stealing part, but prostitution is legal here and in the Netherlands and it IS taxed and regulated like any other job. So it can be taxed and regulated, it just depends on if the government -wants- to do so.

You're right, I should have specified here, there is only one place in the us that it's allowed with the special permits and that's a small county in nevada (no not in Vegas). Elsewhere it's illegal. I don't know how it happened to become allowed there, but meh. I know the biggest complaint in los angeles is the regulation of taxes and stds.

On the drinking, I've always said, If you can go to war for your country, fully work, or live on your own you should be able to drink. But somehow full adult priviledges isn't until 21, it's an odd year indeed.

[Roknrol]

Re: Manners, Morality, and Law

You're right, I should have specified here, there is only one place in the us that it's allowed with the special permits and that's a small county in nevada (no not in Vegas). Elsewhere it's illegal. I don't know how it happened to become allowed there, but meh. I know the biggest complaint in los angeles is the regulation of taxes and stds.

Actually, Vegas is one of the only places in Nevada where prostitution is illegal - Vegas is not the standard, in that regard. And the "small" counties where it's legal cover more than 2/3 of the state (they're just small in regards to population).

On the drinking, I've always said, If you can go to war for your country, fully work, or live on your own you should be able to drink. But somehow full adult priviledges isn't until 21, it's an odd year indeed.

Years ago, the drinking age in Idaho was 18 (everywhere else was still 21). The biggest problem that was encountered (and why they changed the law) is that an 18 year old could spend 2 hours on the road driving to Idaho, only to get drunk and have to drive back home. After Idaho matched the drinking age, underage DUI's went down significantly.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Manners, Morality, and Law

Actually, Vegas is one of the only places in Nevada where prostitution is illegal - Vegas is not the standard, in that regard. And the "small" counties where it's legal cover more than 2/3 of the state (they're just small in regards to population).


Years ago, the drinking age in Idaho was 18 (everywhere else was still 21). The biggest problem that was encountered (and why they changed the law) is that an 18 year old could spend 2 hours on the road driving to Idaho, only to get drunk and have to drive back home. After Idaho matched the drinking age, underage DUI's went down significantly.

To be honest though, I don't think that was the issue. British Columbia was the same, but instead they changed their driver training rules and got super strict with drinking and driving. Years ago drinking and driving was a HUGE issue. But now the strong majority of drinking and driving cases are men over 40 (for some reason not women...maybe women drove less in those age groups? Not sure....men and women drivers are about equal in numbers in the province), who learned to drive when it was more lax.

They even enforce these in really isolated areas. The cops hide out and wait, or else place road blocks (and unlike a lot of places in the US, they do NOT have to advertise a road block before it happens, and they can really be anywhere...it's totally random). And it's strict. If you have your "N" still (Graduated licensing give you your L at 16 for a year, then an "N" for 2 years), not only can you only have 1 passenger in your car, but also it's zero tolerance with blood alcohol. If you blow even legal limit (any blood alcohol at all), you lose your license immediately and have to start at the beginning after the alloted time. So everyone has really set up systems of finding places to crash (because in isolated areas it's a pain for DDs to drive everyone home) and takes turns driving. Bars also reward the DD...you get free non-alcoholic drinks all night. Even though I went to college in a small city, since it was a spread-out city we still crashed on each other's couches MANY a time.

I guess the double whammy in this is also that because of the change in attitude, it's now totally socially unacceptable to drink and drive. If you do it, it's like social suicide. People will think you're a total moron, and you'll lose a lot of trust.

When I think about all that, and look at the statistics on how the laws have also changed the drunk driving stats of LEGAL AGE drivers, combined with the problems and stats on college-age drinking in the US, I think we really do it much better to be honest.

---------- Post added at 06:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:22 PM ----------

You're right, I should have specified here, there is only one place in the us that it's allowed with the special permits and that's a small county in nevada (no not in Vegas). Elsewhere it's illegal. I don't know how it happened to become allowed there, but meh. I know the biggest complaint in los angeles is the regulation of taxes and stds.

Yeah I think it must be rough for state and federal taxes if it's only confined to one area. The thing about here is that it's legal nation-wide so it's not treated any differently in one place and can all be regulated by federal employment laws.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Manners, Morality, and Law

Actually, Tylluan, this IS a moral issue, but it's so deeply built into your conciousness that you don't see it as such.

Yes, I take your point there. You're quite right. I think I was just trying to say that stealing isn't always wrong and can sometimes be justified... which, just as you say,is a moral issue.

[Ophidia]

Re: Manners, Morality, and Law

Not trying to derail a thread, but just to clarify:

In Nevada, we don't pay state income tax, so the fiscal benefits to the state from our small number of legal sex workers (prostitutes, strippers, adult entertainment) is absolutely 0 in terms of taxable income revenue. There aren't enough legal sex workers to even give the US government much of a fiscal benefit from federal income tax (which we do pay).

However, there are a lot of people working illegally as prostitutes, and being taken advantage of by pimps, and probably also human trafficking, that a lot of state money is going towards moving pimps, prostitutes and their customers around in the legal system, providing health care (not only for STDs, but also prostitutes are subjected to violent crime at the hands of pimps and customers) - and wherever there is illegal prostitution & human trafficking, there seems to be a lot more drug trade going on, because that is part of how pimps control their prostitutes.

If the State of Nevada as a whole could get past the whole not wanting to legalize prostitution in major residential areas (where, oh my Gods, children and good moral folk could be exposed to legal sex workers), it would actually resolve a good percentage of the legal and health system's burden, put a good portion of pimps & traffickers out of business... and possibly even reduce the drug trade in and around Las Vegas. Instead, we have law makers who are continually trying to reduce the areas where sex work is legalized, which removes yet another tourist draw for Vegas (one of our sole tax revenue sources) and will put a bunch of people (mainly women) out of work who really don't have many other salable skills.

[KashakuTatsu]

Re: Manners, Morality, and Law

ty for clarifying that, got some misinfo from someone who lives in vegas it seems. she didn't make it seem that bad for the state economics.

[Roknrol]

Re: Manners, Morality, and Law

ty for clarifying that, got some misinfo from someone who lives in vegas it seems. she didn't make it seem that bad for the state economics.

When the economy is good, I'm sure it *does* benefit the state. For the last few years? Fuck, we can't even get people to come for the Casinos, much less the pussy.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Manners, Morality, and Law

Berlin had that issue too. Brothel visits went WAY down during the crisis. Now that Germany is back on top I'm sure it's fine, but I remember that at the end of 2008 I kept reading stories about how they had to start making up stuff like "sex happy hour" with discounted rates and buffets (seriously, who wants to eat in a BROTHEL) to keep customers.

[Ophidia]

Re: Manners, Morality, and Law

^ Some of our strip clubs have buffets :P

[DanieMarie]

Re: Manners, Morality, and Law

Yeah I know...it's weird haha.

[Roknrol]

Re: Manners, Morality, and Law

Hell, most of the Brothel's have a bar and dining area (just not where the sex is)...