The Fear of Death

[Roknrol]

Re: The Fear of Death

Hrm...I'm not sure I agree with that Chain - mostly because I'm not sure what you're talking about where animals will "welcome" death. I have seen animals accept death as an inevitability, and I've seen them become resigned to their fate and give up...but I don't think I've ever witnessed an animal walk into what was certain death with whatever would pass for a wagging tail for the species.

But then again - we have the same instincts. Humans can become resigned to death when they feel that there are no other options. But we have the capacity to recognise when our futures might drag out without any hope for improvement. Animals can do that too, but only when it seems that they are in physical agony. With humans, we can do it just because we had a bad day. The thing is, our instinct is just as strong as it is in animals (see Alive or an equivalent film to understand what I'm talking about). Survival is a goddamned tough habit to break. We just have the ability to quantify it, diagnose it, take it apart, and analyse it. I honestly don't think many animals have the capacity for that kind of thinking, and I think even fewer have any reason whatsoever to view death as simply a part of existence.

[thalassa]

Re: The Fear of Death



^not the lemmming pic I wanted...

[Monk]

Re: The Fear of Death

Why fear what you can't control? Some pass at birth (or before) others live very long lives well into their hundreds. I perscribe to the notion that we are here to perform certain task like raise a child, maybe save a life or change one, who knows what. But until that task or task's are compleated we remain on this Earth.

[Roknrol]

Re: The Fear of Death

So you don't believe in Free Will?

[ChainLightning]

Re: The Fear of Death

You're right, Rok. Welcome wasn't really the word I was looking for but finally settled on due to laziness and exasperation.

The anecdote that brought that description to mind was an animal, my cat, going off to hide under my bed, to die. The spot he chose was a favorite. He obviously knew that death was coming and went to his comforting, cozy pet bed to let it come. It had only become a favorite in the last two or three weeks of his life. I mean, there's more to the story, of course, but that's what made me think of the sense of 'here it comes', without having temper or behavior problems, that would indicate something other than peaceful acceptance. As you can see, though, welcome isn't the word I was hunting for. Resigned would be more applicable.

Another facet would be the state of shock that kills a mouse or rat before a killing blow does, when it is about to become a meal. Having had snakes, and cats that hunted mice, I've seen that happen a couple times. Not often enough to see a trend but not rare enough to disregard it, either.

Humans seem to be the only ones with a bias, towards life, outside of that standard *need* to survive. We put thought into it, we apply ideals, we attach stigmas, we create a whole host of abstract nonsense that doesn't appear to exist with any other animal.

Suicidal whales, beaching themselves? Do they know that, out of the water, they're going to die? Is there some deep meaningful, spiritual quest that they're on, trying to grow legs and take a walk? Seems to me that the evidence indicates that there's a wide range of species that occasionally have members seek out death. That certainly doesn't indicate a fear of it.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: The Fear of Death

I've known some animals, especially rabbits (and, according to my vet, sheep) 'will' themselves to die for no apparent reason. Not ill - that we know of - not suffering, but eating and drinking normally and then.... they do just seem to will themselves to go. But then, rabbits are great thinkers...

[Monk]

Re: The Fear of Death

Even if you make a decision "on your own" how would you know if it was truly free will?


Rok, I'm not fool enough (though a fool I may be) to think that the powers that be have the time or patience enough to micro manage every aspect of our lives. I like to think of it in computer terms like, if than, goto, and sub routines. I know you are into computers so you should understand the concept of having a program that can do many different things and the only way it can reach a certain conclusion is for the criteria for that conclusion to be met by the user.

[ChainLightning]

Re: The Fear of Death

Even if you make a decision "on your own" how would you know if it was truly free will?


Rok, I'm not fool enough (though a fool I may be) to think that the powers that be have the time or patience enough to micro manage every aspect of our lives. I like to think of it in computer terms like, if than, goto, and sub routines. I know you are into computers so you should understand the concept of having a program that can do many different things and the only way it can reach a certain conclusion is for the criteria for that conclusion to be met by the user.

The way I always describe that paradox is, if death is inevitable for every living thing, doesn't that contradict free will? We're all going to wind up in the same place, eventually: dead.

It's not really that much of a stretch to make an achievement, other than death, the inevitability that we all run screaming toward. A personal end, that we choose our entire lives' paths to unknowingly reach. It could happen.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: The Fear of Death

I also find it rather suspect to base one's own fear on the fears (or lack therof) of another person.

Which is why we aren't Christian. Off-topic, I know, sorry, but just sayin'.

[Shahaku]

Re: The Fear of Death

I think there is a great fear of death created in our society for the idea of punishment after death. Honestly, almost every church I went to made it clear that if you didn't make an effort to be a good person you would go to hell. And often that lead to a question of, well, what's good enough? Virtually anyone can find fault in themselves and, perhaps subconsiously, when raised in an enviornment where punishment for sins is seen as fact, a person could veiw those faults as reason for hell, which is down-right terrifing.

Personally, now, I don't fear death. Death itself will come, no matter what I do. It happens to everyone, everything, so there must be a reason for it, at least if you beleive there was a "reason" for anything to begin with. What I fear, is dying. There are so many ways to go and so many of those ways aren't even peaceful, let alone enjoyable.

On that note(though it may be slightly off topic), I will say that I do support euthanasia. I beleive that if a person wants to choose death that's their right. Their state of mind doesn't really matter, so long as they aren't clinically insane. If a person doesn't want to cope with living anymore that's their choice. And it's a much easier way to go that lying in a hospital bed, getting bed sores, unable to control their bowls, with tubes down their throats and in their veins. I don't want to go through that, I don't think anyone should be required to. We'll give that right to criminals but not to our grandparents, neighbors, friends?

Anyway, sorry for the spiel. Dying scares me. Death and being dead don't.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: The Fear of Death

I had no fear of death for myself until I got married. Then the fear was leaving my husband without me. I know that sounds very narcissistic but think about it. I love that man, I do hope he dies before me because then he won't have to go through the pain I know that will be from the loss of his mate. Just as many people fear when a parent dies, the other is going to pass within the year because it is SO common.

I don't fear my own death, I fear the death of my loved ones, because each time one dies a portion of that which made me ME is removed from this world.

[thalassa]

Re: The Fear of Death

I had no fear of death for myself until I got married. Then the fear was leaving my husband without me. I know that sounds very narcissistic but think about it. I love that man, I do hope he dies before me because then he won't have to go through the pain I know that will be from the loss of his mate. Just as many people fear when a parent dies, the other is going to pass within the year because it is SO common.

I don't fear my own death, I fear the death of my loved ones, because each time one dies a portion of that which made me ME is removed from this world.

I think this is why I "fear" death...I don't fear what happens next, or the process of dying. I just don't like the idea of not getting to see what kind of people my kids end up as, growing old with my hubby, etc.

...perhaps reluctance or apprehensive are better words than fear

[liamhaswings]

Re: The Fear of Death

There is also that funny thing called conditioning. Perhaps after all these centuries of our generations believing they are either going to heaven or hell, fear in God etc has created a sort of fear, and a subsequent sanitisation of our society, our distain for blood, etc. However when one actually gets close to death, I think it may not be what we would imagine it to be. If one fears death, so be it. But when one actually gets close, that may change. Who knows.

[ChainLightning]

Re: The Fear of Death

Ya know? Liam, I think that 'conditioning' is seriously the one thing that sets a social fear apart from a personal fear. As a society, we are conditioned to fear death. Never mind where the source is from, be it religion or whatever, just the sad fact that we are "supposed to" fear that dark unknown. Just like society, or at least media, would have us believing that a size 0 is the penultimate body shape, for women. Or hundreds of condemnations like wrinkles, balding and all that.

We're conditioned to think a certain way for purely aesthetic reasons. Capitalist reasons? Maybe. I don't see how a fear of death would be a pot of gold for someone, except in fringe, alternative ventures like that cryo shit.

Yup. I'll go with that. We, as a society, fear death simply because we are conditioned to, right from the day we're born. Lemmings.

[Medusa]

Re: The Fear of Death

I don't fear death. But I fear not going where Dumuzi is going. I think my place is going to have all the wild parties.