The Fear of Death

[Roknrol]

Re: The Fear of Death

Conditioning? Try instinct.

Medusa: If you're not afraid of death, with a history of suicide, why are you still alive? (that's rhetorical, of course)

From experience, there's (almost) always a reason to stick around, even if it's "stupid". That's instinct at work, ladies and gentlemen.

[ChainLightning]

Re: The Fear of Death

That doesn't make any sense. The fear of death is an instinct? Bullshit. Maybe the fear of dying is but it's more likely that just plain 'survival' is the instinct, that you speak of. The fear of death? No. That's not instinct simply because it's not universal.

On a social level, personal instinct is virtually irrelevant, in any case. "As a society....."? No, I'm afraid instinct is a crock of shit. No offense.

[Medusa]

Re: The Fear of Death

Conditioning? Try instinct.

Medusa: If you're not afraid of death, with a history of suicide, why are you still alive? (that's rhetorical, of course)

From experience, there's (almost) always a reason to stick around, even if it's "stupid". That's instinct at work, ladies and gentlemen.

Apparently I really suck at suicide

[thalassa]

Re: The Fear of Death

I think its more of an instinct to live...and there is an evolutionary advantage for that, obviously.

[Roknrol]

Re: The Fear of Death

I think its more of an instinct to live...and there is an evolutionary advantage for that, obviously.

Thalassa understood my point.

Chain: Same question - WHY are you still alive if not for instinct? Is there any rational reason why most of us would bother sticking around on this shithole? Plenty of us have toyed with suicide and dealt with depression. You, yourself, are one cynical motherfucker - can you come up with any logical reasons to stick around? Ones that actually make all of the pain and suffering worth it?

And when you can't logically explain your own behavior, you've got two options: Conditioning and instinct. While some people could probably be conditioned out of their instinctual behavior, in our societies where death is something that's rarely discussed much less seen, which do you think applies more?

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: The Fear of Death

Thalassa understood my point.

Chain: Same question - WHY are you still alive if not for instinct? Is there any rational reason why most of us would bother sticking around on this shithole? Plenty of us have toyed with suicide and dealt with depression. You, yourself, are one cynical motherfucker - can you come up with any logical reasons to stick around? Ones that actually make all of the pain and suffering worth it?

And when you can't logically explain your own behavior, you've got two options: Conditioning and instinct. While some people could probably be conditioned out of their instinctual behavior, in our societies where death is something that's rarely discussed much less seen, which do you think applies more?

While I'm not Chain or Medusa, as somebody who lives with chronic pain, other than for my loved ones, the reason I stick around?

Everyday of my life I've learned something new, some good some not so good sometimes it's flipping incredible, but I'm too damn curious to check out on my own without knowing I didn't give tomorrow a chance.

[ChainLightning]

Re: The Fear of Death

Rok, I understood your point. And on that level I agree with it. Where the contradiction comes in, for me, is that the fear of death is not synonymous with the instinct to survive. The two are unrelated, except as ideologies within the spectrum of human understanding.

Fear of dying is different from the fear of death. As is the fear of pain, the fear of losing contact with loved ones, the fear of what loved ones will go through, etc.

None of those are even on the same page as a survival instinct.

Chain: Same question - WHY are you still alive if not for instinct? Is there any rational reason why most of us would bother sticking around on this shithole? Plenty of us have toyed with suicide and dealt with depression. You, yourself, are one cynical motherfucker - can you come up with any logical reasons to stick around? Ones that actually make all of the pain and suffering worth it?

One, actually. I can come up with one that works, anyway, to keep stopping me from eating a bullet. "I'm supposed to." Obligations to others, for some ungodly reason, is what I hang my hat on to stay alive... I cannot bring myself to be so irresponsible, as to let them all down.

And, for those twits in the psychiatric field, trying to dig into my past, trying to find reason and logic to explain my emotions and cynicism? I can skirt their whole doublespeak mind-fucking by just sticking to my own [warped] sense of decency. I will do exactly what I feel I have to do. As long as I feel I have obligations to loved ones and friends (redundancy, anyone?), I'm still around. Period.

And when you can't logically explain your own behavior, you've got two options: Conditioning and instinct. While some people could probably be conditioned out of their instinctual behavior, in our societies where death is something that's rarely discussed much less seen, which do you think applies more?

Behavior, yes. Emotions, no. Fear isn't necessarily an innate emotion. I think it's safe to say that most fears, nowadays, are actually learned. Fear of heights, fear of snakes, fear of the opposite gender, fear of going bald, fear of aging, fear of crowds, fear of death - very personal and subjective to those with such fears. Where does it [do they] come from? Conditioning. It's learned... scary snakes and spiders, the bogeyman. Hell, even The Dark is something that's indoctrinated.

Survival instinct, on the other hand, is what gets me out of life threatening situations, alive. Heightened awareness, faster reflexes... whatever it takes to come out on top. To survive a near death experience. That's survival instinct. That's not a fear of death.

[thalassa]

Re: The Fear of Death

I wonder what evidence there is over this...

I think that its likely both--that fear itself is an innate emotion tied to the survival instinct. But the object of fear is learned from a very young age by observing those around you, before you are even consciously able to analyze your behavior as to *seem* innate...and that there are fears that are conditioned by experience.

[ChainLightning]

Re: The Fear of Death

I'd be curious to read some studies, on it. From what I can remember from behavior studies and psychology, I must admit that, as usual, I could be talking out of my ass. I just don't have the memory that I once had.

It's just that 'innate' and 'fear' don't seem to coagulate. Animals have to be taught what to fear, by their mother or parent. Humans, even with their cognitive and reasoning abilities, still have that same disadvantage. If a child isn't taught that little bit of information about the stove, they just won't know to not go near it when it's on. I know it's anecdotal but there's even people that didn't tie in pain as a bad feeling until they were taught such. And even more that find pain as a source of pleasure, oddly enough.

How can there be a disconnect, if that survival instinct and some innate fear of death can be so easily overcome by simply enjoying pain, danger and near death experiences? Something is most definitely NOT innate, or an instinct, if so many people can disregard the fear, not the 'survival' aspect mind you, of that dark blanket of death.

Stigma. It's also learned.

*shrug

[Monk]

Re: The Fear of Death

I agree with ChainLigtning on this if anybody cares to hear my two cents worth.

[Roknrol]

Re: The Fear of Death

Thanks for the replies guys - Chain, you're right of course: A bit of one and the other, not one OR the other...Thal had some good points too. Unfortunately, I need to bow out of this for the time being - I'm in Canada right now and for some fucked up reason they don't seem to be as "free" with their WiFi as in the states, so connection time is limited (and spotty).

[ChainLightning]

Re: The Fear of Death

Aw, bummer!! Well, this will still be here when you get back to the states, dude. Besides, the highway takes priority over these little diversions. LOL

[Roknrol]

Re: The Fear of Death

Well, unless the money runs out (a very real probability at this point) I won't be back in the states for a week or two, and when I do I'll actually be in your neck of the woods anyway...

[LKN]

Re: The Fear of Death

I fear death for myself because I really want to live to be 100 years old. So I have 74 years left...

I don't REALLY fear death, though. I believe that there is an afterlife of some sort, and that when I'm ready, I will be reborn. So I guess I believe in a kind of limbo between death and rebirth... not sure if there is a name for that, but it's the kind of reincarnation that I believe in. :-)

So I don't really have to fear death.

I hate when loved ones die, I don't feel as if it's something to celebrate, unless they were miserable in the end. Then it's good because at least they are no longer in pain.

However, if someone dies suddenly and unexpectedly (car crash, aneurysm, etc.), particularly at a young age, there is no reason to celebrate. Of course that is my opinion!

[shadow cat]

Re: The Fear of Death

I do not fear death itself. My fear lies in how I am going to die.