Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

[DeadJellyfish]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I also started developing allergies to all jewelry. I'm confirmed to be allergic to anything nickle or copper and even gold and silver irritate to put in my ears. Mine have never grown in though, odd enough.

Piercing really doesn't hurt that much. In my rebellious days my mom wouldn't let me pierce my lip so I did it myself. It's just scary hearing your skin make a popping sound! When i have a daughter I do think I'm gonna wait until she's old enough now.

I'm allergic to a lot of metals too. I still don't know which ones specifically. But my ear piercings closed up because of the allergic reaction I had to my favorite pair of earrings. I mean, I had my ears pierced for 3 years before they actually closed up.

[egregor]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I am rather attached to my foreskin. We have been through a lot together and I cannot imagine what those experiences would have been like without it... I say wait until he is old enough to decide for himself... Then again, I know next to nothing about the process of circumcision but I am assuming that it could be done in the later years of a male's life, not just while they are infants.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I'm allergic to a lot of metals too. I still don't know which ones specifically. But my ear piercings closed up because of the allergic reaction I had to my favorite pair of earrings. I mean, I had my ears pierced for 3 years before they actually closed up.

Same. I had mine pierced for a few years and they closed up fairly quickly.

[Lilium of the Valley]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

i didnt get it done with little man....even though i had lots of people tell me im nuts....i also did research on the pros and cons...here in germany the child doesnt even get an anesthetic (just a shot that makes him not remember the pain that he will experience) and its done within the first 3 weeks of life...
i was not going to have my newborn be put through more pain then he has to go through at 3 weeks...he got his immunizations (which was bad enough for me, i cried worse then he did)...and if he one day decides to get his *ehem* snipped then that will be his own choice and i will have no part of it LOL x]
if health issues come up...different story, but i will go down that path with him when it happens and if it happens..."if its not broken dont fix it" IMO

[Auseklis]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

Has anyone every wondered why we don't circumcise animals? Because they don't need to be... humans are another animal in nature. I am surprised that Pagan's agree with mutilating what nature has made perfect. Nature is never wrong and I don't see how humanity (who has done a fine job at screwing up nature) can come up with some crazy idea to mutilate male or female genitals. I am against it as a Pagan and as a compassionate human being {unless I am wrong about humans and we are not part of the nature and should be mutilated?)

[Denarius]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

Nature is never wrong

Nature is wrong all the time. Unless you think that babies being born with their intestines hanging out, inside out skin, or worse is all well and good.

I don't see how humanity can come up with some crazy idea to mutilate male or female genitals.

I don't really see how circumcision is mutilation any more than piercings or tattoos are. The problem here is one of informed consent, not disfigurement.

Furthermore, we got the ability and inclination to modify our bodies from nature. From the gifts it gave us; like intelligence, curiosity, and a sense of art and aesthetics. Humans are animals after all, with all the imperfections and splendor that implies.

Is circumcision stupid? Some people think so, others don't... There's not really so many benefits or drawbacks to either side that we can conclusively say one way or the other, at least as far as I know, so again this is entirely a matter of parental judgement and authority.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I think circumcision is unnecessary and I don't understand it, having lived in a country that doesn't do it for almost my entire adult life (and all of my sex life). BUT I'm don't support the "natural" argument here. There are lots of things we do that are unnatural but beneficial, like vaccinations. Animals in nature that aren't pets, farm animals, or zoo animals are not vaccinated. They also live much shorter lives.

[Auseklis]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I don't really see how circumcision is mutilation any more than piercings or tattoos are.

So why aren't we tattooing and piercing our babies? Because that is personal choice when we mutilate our own bodies. What gives us the right to mutilate anyone else's especially a baby?

[Denarius]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

So why aren't we tattooing and piercing our babies?

...People do that, at least the piercing bit. Baby piercing.

Parental consent overrides age restrictions on tattoos in more than twenty-five US states, but then again a case could certainly be made for child endangerment so most places wouldn't even try.

What gives us the right to mutilate anyone else's especially a baby?

The word of law, more fundamentally ourselves through democracy.

I absolutely believe that such decisions are beyond the authority of a parent, that it should be up to the child to make that decision... So if I ever become a parent, that's what I will do. I'll leave it up to them.

However, I have just as little authority over other parents to make that decision for them as well. If the people decide collectively to take that choice away through legal means, then that's all well and good. Democracy in action.

[Yorin]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

If I remember correctly, circumcision came around because of the middle eastern tribes of people wandering around the desert with little water. Dirt and sand would get in under the foreskin and whatnot and cause infections and rashes and whatnot. So it was a health/hygiene thing-that's why people did it. Which I completely understand and don't blame them for.

However, nowadays with all the technology and stuff like indoor plumbing and whatnot that we have-it's not necessarily a thing we absolutely need to do to survive and should be left up to the individual parents as long as they keep in mind when teaching the child hygiene habits to actually wash their junk properly.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

So why aren't we tattooing and piercing our babies? ?..What gives us the right to mutilate anyone else's especially a baby?

A. Because it is not one of my culture's traditions.

B. don't know. Maybe the same thing that give's mom the right to off 'em if she doesn't want 'em (?)

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I wasn't allowed to get my ears pierced until I was 16.

[Raphaeline]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I once asked my mother-in-law why she chose not to circumcise my husband when he was born. Her feelings on the topic were the same as mine, but she added that his older brother was circumcised in the hospital after she clearly told them not to. When my son was born, I told anyone who would listen that I didn't want him circumcised and I told them repeatedly, because I was afraid someone would screw up paperwork and do it anyway. Fortunately, at least at the facility where he was born, there was a lot of precautions to prevent that kind of thing from happening.

I would never circumcise my own son unless it was a medical necessity due to some problem discovered upon his birth. I would need a damn good reason to cut off a natural, functional body part, even if it's "just skin". If he grows up and decides he prefers to be circumcised, then he can have the procedure done whenever he's ready. Yes, I know it's more painful and difficult for adult men, but I'm not going to perform an irreversible surgery just in case he decides it's prettier later in life. I've also heard of men who've had accidents that have resulted in having to have an adult circumcision, but to have it done to an infant without a need for it sounds overly precautionary. We don't remove appendices or tonsils "'just in case". You might say those are more invasive procedures, but considering how sensitive our genitals are designed to be, I wouldn't agree that those procedures are more painful than a circumcision.

When it comes down to it, although I know this argument concerns the short-term cost in a situation where the whole point is the long-term outcome, an infant is born and subjected immediately to pain in his first days of life. Where circumcision stands as a part of my culture seems pretty insignificant in that moment.

Having said all that, I don't believe that parents who choose to circumcise should be considered "bad parents" because it's each parent's responsibility to make the decisions for their children that they believe are best. I know plenty of people who have had their sons circumcised and I wouldn't attempt to lecture or shame them because of that choice. Everyone has their own experiences and beliefs that influences what they think is best for their kids, as it should be.

[Auseklis]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

If I remember correctly, circumcision came around because of the middle eastern tribes of people wandering around the desert with little water.

I often spend time with the Australian Indigenous elders researching their customs and spiritual practices and they explained to me that circumcision came from a practice done thousands of years ago (around 10,000 BC) when the Australian Indigenous men would circumcise themselves to be able to slice their penis down the middle (but not all the way through). It was a religious/spiritual rite that was then taken up by the Egyptian folks who traveled to Australia frequently to trade with the Australian Indigenous people (Kangaroo skins amongst other uniquely Australian items have been found in Egyptian tombs). That would explain how the practice ended up in the Middle East however they enforced it on the children where the Australian Indigenous men did it as a personal choice and for spiritual purposes.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I'm still quite stunned that this is STILL a debate, even. Current medical understandings indicate that the benefits outweigh the problems, though they still fall short of actively advising it. Cultural and religious-based traditions have different reasons. Do what YOU feel is right. Given the medical information and heeding your cultural and religious beliefs. Where's the debate?


The only place where the downside is horrendously understated is female circumcision.


Male circumcision, though? You have to navigate your way through mountains of demonizing rhetoric to get at the actual facts, regarding the procedure. While at the same time, remaining skeptical of some of the [false] claims behind its support. Personally, I love when people start going off about the nerve damage, and lack of sexual gratification, for circumcised males - the evidence doesn't support that claim. Until it's an adult that gets circumcised, then the evidence starts showing up in significant numbers. I.e., baby gets circumcised and grows up, most likely, without any issue in that arena but when an adult gets circumcised, he's relatively likely to start having problems.




The only real debate is whether an infant possesses the autonomous right to decide or if a parent has the right to make that decision for their dependent child.

Because, in the end, it's a matter of choice. Meaning, trying to make that choice for your neighbor is wrong. Do they make your choices for you? So, is it an infants choice? It's a far safer procedure, when performed on babies - e.g. oftentimes, there is no bleeding involved, risk of infection is really, really low. On that same note, if you just let the decision ride, until the child can make an informed decision, on their own, the medical procedure gains a lot of ground in the amount of real risk to the patient. To that end, adults should not get circumcised, the risk is too great. Particularly, that risk of infection.