What is LIBERTY?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I think Denarius is being overly harsh, but I understand where he is coming from -

Personal story ahead

Used to be that my wife and I were dirt poor. Seven days a week, we ate rice, beans, or potatoes - no butter, couldn't afford it. We lived in a crappy one room apartment, for which privelege we were paying around $400 per month - probably about $600 - 700 in today's money. It was about the size of a Marlboro pack. The short ones, not the long ones.

I was working seven days a week, 12 - 14 hours per day, except Saturday and Sunday... Boss didn't want to have to pay double-time for overtime. In fact, one year I worked 364 consecutive days.

A friend was getting married, so we went down to meet his new bride. She was divorced, with one daughter, and working at Burgerking. Because she was divorced with a child, she was getting state aid - food, and a two bedroom bilevel condo which would have been luxury accommodations for my wife and I. Her paying job was giving her "fun money" because food and lodging was all taken care of.

I know this isn't what happens most of the time, and I sure as heck don't want anybody hungry or out on the street, especially kids. But there is something really wrong when a person can get state aid and live way, way better that a working stiff.

This is why many people get pissed.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Yeah I can totally understand that, especially if you've struggled yourself. Hell I've been pissed at people getting state aid...back in the day in Canada, and here as well, it used to be wayyyy easier to sponge off the system. I used to know a guy in high school who was a few years older than me who sponged after he graduated (he was cut off when the rules changed). And here, before they made it harder to sponge, people used to brag about the benefits they got and how they were screwing over the system. Thankfully, I haven't heard that in a while.

Even though I've seen it, I don't really want to judge everyone by those standards. I know it's frustrating, but most people wouldn't want to be judged by the worst in their situation. And in this case it makes it THAT much harder. For every cheater, I've seen several like single moms whose husband left her, people who lost their jobs due to cutbacks and hadn't had enough padding in their income to fall back on, and stuff like that. and then there are the people who are in a grey zone but I see it a lot here and in the UK (though even more in the UK...Germany doesn't have even close to the same level of problem with teen pregnancy, which seems to perpetuate this), who would be seen as 'sponging' but it's kind of more complicated than that. There's a level of poverty where people are born into it and can't see a way out of it, so they just feel that being on benefits and not going anywhere is what their life is. They get told that's what their life is and that it's all it's going to be, either directly or it's implied by the residuals of a class society that isn't really obviously there but still has its ugly leftovers kicking around. Cut these people off benefits and they tend to turn to crime, but they are a drain on tax dollars...what do you do? I think because it comes from the leftovers of classist society it's going to be a bit of a slower solution that involves changing society.

[Denarius]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

...So there are lazy people, it's just not their fault that they're lazy. Why, they're the victims in this.

[thalassa]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

...So there are lazy people, it's just not their fault that they're lazy. Why, they're the victims in this.

Define lazy.

Because I know just as many (if not more) lazy people with money than lazy people without.

[Denarius]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Disinclined to work.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

...So there are lazy people, it's just not their fault that they're lazy. Why, they're the victims in this.

That's not what I said. I said it was a LOT more complicated than just 'lazy' and even though it's not an ideal situation and all efforts should be taken to get people off benefits and employed in general, it's not so easy as cutting them off because when that happens it tends to cause crime.

A lot of these people also don't WANT to be on benefits (see London Riots, August 2011) but they feel like they don't have other options. I can understand how you don't know much about the UK or Europe but youth unemployment is really high in a lot of countries even for people WITH A-levels and degrees, let alone people who finished school at 15 (most European countries school ends at 15 and then you can stay on to do A-levels to go to uni, but trades jobs and such it's better to leave at 15 and do an apprenticeship) and got pregnant shortly after. The UK is interesting too because so much of trade and employment is centered on London, but it's stupidly expensive to live there. In a lot of other parts of the country unemployment is high, and youth unemployment is worse. In some other countries like Spain and Italy, youth unemployment can be as high in some areas as 50%, and the stats for the whole country aren't much better. So if people are struggling with finding work WITH degrees, it's not like someone who has been taught their whole life that they're not going anywhere is going to bother even trying. You might call it 'lazy' but I just call it 'depressing' and I'm glad it's not me.

Despite what a lot of Americans like to think, European countries DO NOT want a load of people on benefits. They want as few people on benefits as possible. But there are deeper societal problems at play, and if they had a good solution to it, they would be doing it already.

PS in Germany, if you work 2 jobs, your second job goes into 'tax class 6' if you make more than 400 Euro a month, which is a crazy high tax rate near 50%. So the motivation for working 2 jobs is extremely low. I'll stop you right there, and say that I think this is retarded, but as of now, it is what it is. Not defending it by any means, but just stating how things stand.

Likewise, I'm not defending these people who spend their lives on benefits. I'm just saying that it's a much, much more complex and deep-seated problem than a lot of people realise. And the solution is not 'cut them off'.

[Denarius]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

One of the problems that I see is that even if a person on welfare, or whatever, can get a job they don't because they don't see a point to it.

My mother declined career opprutinities, as in they would reliably pay a good deal more than what she got, because it would disqualify her for SSI. From her point of view she had a choice between working and getting X amount money, or not working and getting Y amount of money.

X was substantially more than Y, as in over five hundred dollars more a month. She chose to stick with SSI, because she didn't want to work. This happens all the time.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Yeah I don't see that a whole lot. It happens but if you decline a job, you CAN get cut off your benefits here (or get them reduced), and they do check (to get benefits, you have to register with the employment office and take their job board services).

They've adjusted this more recently, but there was a famous case a few years ago where a girl got her benefits reduced because she turned down a job as a prostitute in a brothel (prostitution has been legal in Germany since 2002). You no longer have to sell your body to keep your benefits, but if you're offered a job selling fruit or working at McDonalds, you'd best take it.

There are still deeper mechanisms at work though. In the UK it's an issue of long-term poverty, the education system and teen pregnancy spattered with a whole ton of other issues that are just far too long and numerous to quote here. In Germany a lot of the people who claim benefits long-term come from immigrant families from places like Turkey. They were born in Germany and are German, but their families don't value education so many of them didn't finish school and are not fluent in German. School in Germany doesn't have an equivalent of ESL (which I think is a huge failing on the part of the German education system). Aside from that though, there's a lot of subversive racism left towards them, and a lot of bias against foreigners in general (I can vouch for this...), especially those who are not white or Asian. Having a Turkish name cuts your hiring prospects drastically, no matter how qualified you are. So there are a number of people who don't even try. And though they have to register with the job offices they're not as likely to be offered something.

[thalassa]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I don't see it very often here either...

I generally see the problem of a second parent working with young children (it generally costs more than they make), of persons that have been injured or ill and are unable to work, of single or divorced parents without a good enough education unable to get a decent job that will pay for themselves and their family, of grandparents and other family members forced to take on the extra expense of grandchildren due to parental deployment, of families downsized from the military and from the civilian sector that can't find a job because there aren't enough jobs to go around that will pay the bills, of older couples crippled by medical debt and working when they should be retired, etc...

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I don't see it very often here either...

I generally see the problem of a second parent working with young children (it generally costs more than they make), of persons that have been injured or ill and are unable to work, of single or divorced parents without a good enough education unable to get a decent job that will pay for themselves and their family, of grandparents and other family members forced to take on the extra expense of grandchildren due to parental deployment, of families downsized from the military and from the civilian sector that can't find a job because there aren't enough jobs to go around that will pay the bills, of older couples crippled by medical debt and working when they should be retired, etc...

Yeah I see all those things too, minus the military-related stuff.

[Medusa]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

...So there are lazy people, it's just not their fault that they're lazy. Why, they're the victims in this.

I think the issue is you focus so much on this word. You seem to want to label a large majority of people and focus them as lazy. You know there are lazy rich people too. Ever heard of Paris Hilton or any number of millionaire heiresses?

[Denarius]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I have never said that all poor people are lazy! Why do you guys keep saying that I did?

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I don't think you said that, but I do think you misinterpret 'lazy' and fail to understand the numerous issues behind poverty. As you have stated that you don't know anything about economics, that's excusable, but you should probably stop pretending like you understand.

There -are- lazy poor people of course, but there are also lazy rich people. I've known several personally over the course of my life. I find laziness in general to be a minority though in all walks of life. Even if you can afford not to work, or get benefits, most people in practice find unemployment to be intensely boring.

[Denarius]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Lazy rich people, and lazy poor people tend to do the same thing: Spend other people's money. People are lazy because they can be lazy.

Are you aware of the NEET phenomenon?

[thalassa]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

If someone is poor because they are lazy, unlucky, or made poor decisions then too bad for them. They just need to get unpoor.

An adult of sound mind and body has no excuse for being poor other than choosing to be poor, they have a body and mind they should stop lollygagging and use them.

If you want to spend your money giving the children of lazy bums a proper education then that's your perogative.

I'm just saying that there are a lot of poor people who are poor solely because they choose to be poor. Hell, my neighbourhood seems to be lousy with such people... My mother included.

Some people drop out of school because of a family emergency, or an illness, or for some other reason out of their control. Most drop out because they can't be bothered to finish their schooling, or some other equally stupid reason.

Judgmental much?