What is LIBERTY?

[Denarius]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Those businesses will manage themselves, duh.

As for NASA, that was a point about voter limitations.

[thalassa]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Those businesses will manage themselves, duh.

...because its worked so far...

[Denarius]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

^Your point is? The thing about businesses is that if you don't like how one particular one does things, there will always be others that do it differently.

Businesses make their money by catering to their cleints. They are dependent on us, if we don't like how they do things they will have to adapt or die.

If you have veiws that clash with the mainstream, you can always find specialty businesses... Just don't be surprised if it's a lot more expensive.

[thalassa]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

right...have you had to pay for your own insurance and medical costs lately?

...muchless for a family?

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Those businesses will manage themselves, duh.

As for NASA, that was a point about voter limitations.

There's nothing I want to see in my country less than a totally privatized health care system or education. I already hate that there's a dual insurance system that allows private because people with private get better treatment. It's WAY WAY WAY WAY better in Canada and the UK (and cheaper) where it's a single-payer, universal system. Not as bad as the US though...the US health care system is a big reason I'd never, ever live there.
I'm not anti-corproation, don't get me wrong. But some things I'd rather leave to be government-run. I'm also by far not a free-market capitalist (seriously, look how that one turned out), and I like my capitalism with a side of regulation, which involves government.

And I agreed with you about voter limitations. I believe in democracy but I think referendums go a bit to far when it comes to serious issues. People should be left to make major economic decisions directly no more than they should be left to conduct heart surgery or draft plans for a building. Other people do these things because they know how to do them. It's great to vote in who gets to make these decisions but directly making them ourselves is poor policy (seriously Greece, a referendum on the bailout package? REALLY?)

[Denarius]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

You know what privitized education is? Apprenticeship and vocational school. Optional basic schooling for kids, when they're not working of course.

right...have you had to pay for your own insurance and medical costs lately?

...muchless for a family?

Of course it costs a lot now, but without a government regulated and backed monitary system it defults to simpler payement methods.

Such as the barter system. The doctor provides a service for you, and in exchange you provide a service for him. Everyone wins.

You don't have anything the doctor wants? Find out what he wants, and trade for it with someone who has it. Keep things like gold and whatnot for quick trading, people like gold for some reason.

[thalassa]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I take it you haven't WORKED in the health care industry either...

[Denarius]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

What? Doctors don't like gold?

[Ophidia]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Businesses make their money by catering to their clients. They are dependent on us, if we don't like how they do things they will have to adapt or die.

Small businesses depend on their customers. Corporations have stock-holders whose best interests come before those of any customer or employee.

Bedbugs, dirty rooms, stained sheets & mattresses, low-quality cheap food prepared in bulk, an entire wing of rooms where the t.v.s all shut off at the same time each night because the circuit breakers have never been updated, sewage that backs up into sinks & showers, broken a/cs & not enough cocktail waitresses to go around? Eh, big deal. One complaining customer won't stop the other 6000 from staying where I work, because it's dirt cheap right now. But Gods forbid you make a suggestion that might cost the corporation money, like, oh, I don't know, reducing the 'resort fee' a few bucks when the pools close due to a bio-hazard.

You can argue all you want for the barter system, small private business-people, small government, but what you seem to be missing is that in those kinds of situations, skill and knowledge are social power, and once the average person gets a taste of power it can be the hardest drug to give up. If your hypothetical doctor is aware of his social standing and power, do you think a chicken or two would get you an appendectomy?

Who's to say that other individuals (say those who are skilled at killing, maiming and torturing people for fun and profit) would let constructively skilled people trade their abilities freely? Controlling skilled and knowledgeable people is possibly even more powerful than having skill and knowledge of one's own. Dictators don't come to rule independently - they control people who can ensure their primacy over those who don't matter. In those cases, one can glamorize the potential of a few small people to change the world for the better, but they're usually lucky if they can maintain the status quo.

[thalassa]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

If your hypothetical doctor is aware of his social standing and power, do you think a chicken or two would get you an appendectomy?

...not to mention that it takes more than just a doctor to perform something more complicated than your average appendectomy...

[Denarius]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Crappy motels fill a niche, they cater to their custumers just as much as the ritziest of places. If people don't want to or can't afford a better place, and don't mind such things then it's a godsend. That's not a bad thing.

If people want quality, they have to pay for it. Otherwise money serves no purpose.

The fact that doctors have social power is extremely evident even in this society. You seem to be forgetting that everyone has power, they just need to know how to use it. If you can't play the game, don't expect to win.

People with combat skills are not universally jerkasses, there's more than enough of them who are willing to defend others from the less scrupulous sorts either for money, favours, or out of the kindness of their hearts.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

You know what privitized education is? Apprenticeship and vocational school. Optional basic schooling for kids, when they're not working of course.



Of course it costs a lot now, but without a government regulated and backed monitary system it defults to simpler payement methods.

Such as the barter system. The doctor provides a service for you, and in exchange you provide a service for him. Everyone wins.

You don't have anything the doctor wants? Find out what he wants, and trade for it with someone who has it. Keep things like gold and whatnot for quick trading, people like gold for some reason.

That all sounds terrible to me. Definitely not a system I'd want.

Also since I come from a country where health care is considered a right and not a privilege (something that was brought up before) the idea of 'getting what you pay for' in health care sounds horrendous and ridiculously wrong. I'd honestly never, ever want to live in a place like that. I'd rather live in a place where it's tax-funded and your care is based on priority (so, if you're going to die, you get seen sooner, and if you're not going to die you have to wait a bit, with varying degrees in between), not on how much money you can pay. I'm not poor by any stretch, and in a totally private system I'd probably be in the group that could afford better, but that doesn't mean I think I'm entitled to more than people who have less money than I do.

Same with education. I'm very pleased with the public education I received in Canada. I can't imagine having to pay for that quality of education. I could have gone to private school, but in Canada there's really no need. So I didn't. The kids who had less money than my family got access to the same quality of education as I did, and I think that's right.

[Ophidia]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

The fact that doctors have social power is extremely evident even in this society. You seem to be forgetting that everyone has power, they just need to know how to use it. If you can't play the game, don't expect to win.

I know everyone has the potential to have power among and over others, mitigated by personality and opportunity (and usually money or the access to money). I just feel having a rosy outlook on the altruism of other humans is misguided. Power, whether it's political, social or monetary, has the ability to wipe out altruism and philanthropy.

Yes, there are people like Bill Gates & his wife who create charitable organizations that do good work - but if you took away the tax breaks and the publicity would they be inclined to perform the same way? Or would they be a tad bit stingier?

[Denarius]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I'm not arguing that health care and education shouldn't be a right that everyone has, what I am saying is that you should get what you pay for. Basic, no frills, and spartan education for those who can't be bothered to invest in their child's future. The kids shouldn't be punished because their parents failed them.

Health care rights should be limited to treating that which is a serious threat to one's life and the quality thereof.

Anything else is paid for directly or through insurance, on a quality gradient.

Yes, there are people like Bill Gates & his wife who create charitable organizations that do good work - but if you took away the tax breaks and the publicity would they be inclined to perform the same way? Or would they be a tad bit stingier?

The publicity is not going away, that will always be a factor. People are generous for three reasons: To show off, because it makes them feel good, and because they want to help.

Rich people are exactly the same. Generosity is borne of the same irrational thought processes that make them buy horribly expensive things that they will never use. It's a display of affluence.

Even horrible people want to or need to look good. Yes people will always look out for themselves first, but the smarter folk know that the best way to do that is to be seen as a nice guy.

Even the most poweful people are slaves to their PR. Also, dictators and mob bosses are not the norm. Most people aren't douche bags, they're just more memorable. So it seems that way.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I disagree. What about those who can't afford it? Should their children have less opportunity because their parents can't afford to invest in their education? It's like that in parts of the UK...in parts, state-run public schools are very good. In other parts they are not and to get an ideal education parents have to send their children to private school, so those who can't afford it don't even really have a chance to ever get out of their economic situation. And here in Germany it's really 'results' based, so you go to schools and are able to write your A-levels (the exams you need to write to get into university) based on how well you do, which sounds ok in theory except it actually has shown a huge bias for those who are better off financially. In Canada everyone writes their entrance exams and how well you do on those depends on if you go to university or not, but everyone has the chance to write them. You don't have to write the amount required by university (in my province that was 4), but you can if you want to and no one says you don't even have the opportunity to try because you didn't do so well in school when you were 13.

I don't think you 'get what you pay for' in health care and education. That's wrong. It's all fine and good when you're well off, but if you're not that just makes it -that- much harder to ever get ahead. If we want to really see the gap between rich and poor widen, that's a good way to do it. As for 'Health care rights should be limited to treating that which is a serious threat to one's life and the quality thereof', ANY health problem affects your quality of life. In countries with public health care, stuff like cosmetic surgery is already extra, but most other things are not (usually dental and optical is either basic or extra as well). Even if it's not serious, a small, nagging problem can really affect your life. And even though stuff like a cold isn't serious or affecting the quality of life, you shouldn't be afraid to go to the doctor for it if that cold doesn't go away (could be something worse like strep, but if you feel you'd have to pay you might not even go get treated). The thing that also freaks me out in the US profit-based system is that there seems to be so much corruption, and meds cost sooooooooooooooo much. I hear of doctors prescribing antibiotics for colds and stuff, which is horribly wrong. There's just too much profit to be made and a lot of stuff is way overprescribed. We don't have that.