Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

[Dez]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

I want to add to the main topic of the thread something that was a hot topic at our recent meetings, here: There are increasing accusations that the "anarchists" that showed up in Oakland had police issue boots on, and moved in units once things went to pot.

Even here in boring old Idaho, we're dealing with attempts by previously uninvolved people to come in and hijack the group, leading it in a more violent direction that is NOT part of the nonviolence people have been committed to, and there is currently an effort underway to "out" those people, working with legitimate law enforcement contacts.

*Puts on her tinfoil hat*

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Keep the tinfoil hat handy. There's very good evidence (freedom of information act - I don't have access to sources now) that there were instigators planted in protests back in the 60's as well, to incite riots.

On the other hand, the anarchists might have been training. Or maybe the shoes are a rumor.

The truth is, when it happens, you won't know what the truth is. That's why, in your own mind, you have to be very clear as to what you will and will not do, and never go beyond that, no matter what happens around you.

- and get out of Dodge FAST if things get ugly. Your kids need you more than you need to be a hero.

[Dez]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Really? I'd never heard of that sort of tactic being used before. Can't say I'm surprised, though.

The thought of organized anarchism makes me chuckle.

And yeah, it's tough to verify something like that. The people I'm dealing with are really committed to peace, and generally hold up MLK as the standard, however, I agree 100% that it's not worth it if something falls apart like that.

Besides, my BIL is on the Idaho Falls police department...getting myself arrested at a protest would make for a LIFETIME of awkward family events...

[AzazelEblis]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/cointel.htm

We've had it before, and after the fact, our government has owned up to it for then. I'd have a hard time believing that DHS doesn't have their own program like this right about now.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

And now it's come to loss of life.

http://www.mercurynews.com/occupy-oakland/ci_19314944

[Caelia]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Well, since it's now tinfoil hat time...

*dons tinfoil hat*

I had suspected some of this stuff going on with the Tea Party, Occupy Together, and a few other groups had some air of COINTELPRO. It just seemed too convenient that these things, upon rising, were suddenly "tainted" for the lack of a better word to a point that no one takes it seriously. Part of that could possibly arise from how technology has changed as well as the culture. There's also the way that no one wanted to discuss the protests until suddenly they got rowdy. Mind you, when they started reporting on it, the Occupy Wall Street demonstration had already gone on for weeks. Anonymous has been behind this demonstration from the start, so the fact it didn't even garner attention for that is very telling.

Also, these types of protests have been going on since the Iraq War. Ask Azazel and of some the interesting characters he's encountered.

*doffs tinfoil hat*

I had heard about the death at one of the Occupy events. The rumor I heard last was it was a suicide. Still very sad, and if it is a homicide I hope there is justice.

ADD: I have to echo B.deCorbin but just change it to GTFO NOW!!! Seriously, the fact there's a rumor already stirring is never good.

[cesara]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

And now it's come to loss of life.

http://www.mercurynews.com/occupy-oakland/ci_19314944

Funny, the headlines all point to Occupy Oakland, and yet the articles suggest this shooting was not related to the occupation.

[kijani]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

I'm going to say something. First off, I don't agree with the Occupy movement. I don't think it will work. I'm glad that it is opening lines of communication as far as the issues go, but I think it's too late to be trying to shift the nation's focus. While our country is in a job crisis and I appreciate the effort of the protesters, I think that there are other things to be focusing on right now. That said, I admire the protesters for doing what they are doing. Good for them.

THAT SAID, I just spent a half an hour reading through this thread. I love some of the comments that Dez, Az, and particularly Thal have contributed.

It's not a few fringe groups.

I have family that lives right next to Zuccotti park and has watched the protests since the first day.

It's not a few fringe groups.

LGR, this is a debate, and for the last several pages, I've not really seen you contribute to the debate. You disagree with it. Fine, but rather than trying to legitimately back up your point, you seem to be getting defensive. I've seen your explanations shift with every time someone has said something, and I think you would better understand Thal and Dez and Az's points if you would actually thoroughly read and/or listen to what they post. Going from 'i don't like it' to 'well, my family has -watched- the protesters' etc just seems like you are getting irritated because you haven't been able to sway the main posters in this thread to your point.


No matter what you think about the movement, I can concede that I have also noticed that police are really starting to jump the gun with the protest groups much more than they need to. These are peaceful protest. I don't see protestors showing up in riot gear with tear gas and rubber bullets and all that. Riot gear is for riots... And guess what? If police show up in riot gear and fire on a group, they're going to tiff the group off as a whole. Does it make throwing things at them the right thing to do? Nope. It doesn't. However, inciting the crowd in a public protest doesn't make it right, either. So they're in a public park after curfew? Guess what? That's not a reason to show up in riot gear. They are exercising their right of freedom of speech and assembly. And if they're sitting around and break curfew and break the law, guess what? Most cities have monetary -fines- and lots of other ways to handle that sort of thing that don't involve pepper spray (which some people can have allergic reactions to. Allergies can cause shock and lead to death) and rubber bullets (which if fired close enough could kill someone, rubber or not) and police in riot gear.

I may not like the movement as a whole, but the reactions of the police in some cities have been grossly disproportionate to the group's actions as a whole.

Just saying.

[thalassa]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

watch the video from UC Davis
*
the in-between?
*
...the aftermath

I might also add, that in terms of this particular event (pepper spraying non-violent protesters), there is case law on the matter, that is in favor of the protesters.

[kijani]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

watch the video from UC Davis
*
the in-between?
*
...the aftermath

I might also add, that in terms of this particular event (pepper spraying non-violent protesters), there is case law on the matter, that is in favor of the protesters.

+ to you, hun. and thanks for sharing the links.

[thalassa]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

I'm going to say something. First off, I don't agree with the Occupy movement. I don't think it will work. I'm glad that it is opening lines of communication as far as the issues go, but I think it's too late to be trying to shift the nation's focus. While our country is in a job crisis and I appreciate the effort of the protesters, I think that there are other things to be focusing on right now. That said, I admire the protesters for doing what they are doing. Good for them.

I don't think that it (in terms of the Occupy movement) *needs* to work.

I think all it needs to do is remind us that we have a voice...and remind those of us have stop paying attention of what happens when you stop paying attention...and to mobilize the next generation to do better than the in between ones.

Like them:

IMO: whether I agree with all of their aims or not (and I agree, at lease nominally, with those that include addressing income disparity through taxation--historically some of our most productive periods occurred when the highest income bracket paid the most in taxes, not less...and actually, in terms of workers and such, they benefit the most from government programs that train their employees starting at the age of 5 and by ensuring that they are in good health and safe, livable conditions to work at their peak performance...and from separating corporate interests as much as possible from members of congress and that there should be transparency in corporate sponsorship--Citizens United be damned, corporations are NOT people...unless and until they can whip out a birth certificate and be arrested, along with some others) it doesn't matter...they are utilizing their Constitutionally guaranteed rights. Rights that most of us have forgotten are not always pretty and are not always convenient and that are paid for by those willing to risk their bodies for all of our benefit. As such, these men and women should first be commended--whether you agree with them or not, for getting off their asses, and doing something about the shit that pisses them off.

I can actually commend the Tea Party demonstrators for that as well...right before I go into a monologue on why they are wrong.

[kijani]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Very well said.

[thalassa]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

This is from the end of a blog post by a UU minister, which is the script from his Sunday sermon:

Most importantly, we are only a few short months into this movement. Recently I was speaking to the Rev. Phil Lawson, a famous and well-respected elder of the civil rights movement. He heard some discouragement in some of what I was saying at a recent meeting of the interfaith clergy group I am working with at Occupy. He wanted me to understand that the civil rights movement had started the same unfocused way. It was a confusing mess of committees, actions and ideas that took several years to gain the lightning focus that King and a few others helped bring. We only remember those iconic moments of triumph now, but the beginning felt a whole lot like this.

I conclude with these wise words from T.S. Elliot:

What we call a beginning is often the end.
And to make an end is to make a beginning.
The end is where we start from.

ETA:

This is another, more interesting video of the UC Davis event...

1) The students had already disassembled their camp (or were in the process of doing so--there seems to be some confusion here). The cop tells them he is going to pepper spray them for sitting before hand, despite there being no resistance and no threat of violence and they make no attempt to move, other than threatening studentsprior to spraying them--which is not only counter to the University's policy, but also has been determined in court to be excessive force.

2) There has been criticism that the "cops felt threatened" and were "blocked in by the students" (paraphrase), which I've read on NPR and elsewhere...but you can clearly see the supposedly cornered police simply stepping OVER the protesters (without interference) in order to pepper spray them in the first place. And really...arresting students (and faculty) for sitting on public property that they pay to be at? REally?

3) From the University's own policy (University of California’s Universitywide Police Policies and Administrative Procedures):
“Chemical agents are weapons used to minimize the potential for injury to officers, offenders, or other persons. They should only be used in situations where such force reasonably appears justified and necessary.” and “Arrestees and suspects shall be treated in a humane manner … they shall not be subject to physical force except as required to subdue violence or ensure detention. No officer shall strike an arrestee or suspect except in self-defense, to prevent an escape, or to prevent injury to another person.”

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

the civil rights movement had started the same unfocused way. It was a confusing mess of committees, actions and ideas that took several years to gain the lightning focus that King and a few others helped bring. We only remember those iconic moments of triumph now, but the beginning felt a whole lot like this.

Yes. And before the focus came, there were outrageous riots and massive destruction of property. The city I was born in, Detroit, was, literally, destroyed in '68. Before that, it was a one of the great cities, like Chicago or New York. After, it was a burned out battle zone. Now, it is the symbol of urban decay throughout the world. You can still - 43years later - see the remains of burned out buildings if you look. Beware of idolizing the past - it wasn't what you think.

My personal suggestion is this: find a focus before that happens again. Learn from the past so we don't have to live it all over again. While the movement still have momentum, do something useful with it - if nothing useful is done, it will either fade away or spiral out of control. Either would be a great pity.

[thalassa]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

My personal suggestion is this: find a focus before that happens again. Learn from the past so we don't have to live it all over again. While the movement still have momentum, do something useful with it - if nothing useful is done, it will either fade away or spiral out of control. Either would be a great pity.

People might have that chance, if it weren't for that antagonistic actions of the police.