Mind/Body Duality

[B. de Corbin]

Based on your knowledge, learning, and/or experience, would you say that, in humans:

A. Mind exists independently of the body
B. Mind is, in some way, produced by the body
C. Mind and body are two different things, but so tightly linked that they can't be separated
D. Other???

If possible (and this is the interesting part) explain why you answered as you did.

[thalassa]

Re: Mind/Body Duality

I had to say B...

Because, while I think that mind exists in a separate state than the body, it doesn't exist without it. There is no such thing as a disembodied mind...

[Ophidia]

Re: Mind/Body Duality

So much of everything we think, do or feel is built around a framework of electrical signals, brain chemistry & hormones, I sometimes wonder if we actually experience anything at all or if it's all just biological processes.

For instance, I have a personality disorder (more specifically, Avoidant Personality Disorder). It mainly interferes with me processing emotions and handling social situations. For many years, I've always thought that it was a willful decision to exert self control by not displaying emotional responses. Then it seemed like the only time I could display emotional responses was when I was drunk. Over time, as my tolerance to alcohol grew and my social inhibitions weren't relieved by it, I stopped drinking, thinking it was alcohol causing the problems. I've worried that I was a serial killer in the making because I'd find myself 'acting as though' - pretending to be happy/sad/angry to fit in with other people and not make them uncomfortable.

I realized instead that this is just who I am, and decided I wanted to live a fuller emotional life. I went to a series of shrinks & had a series of tests done to discover that I am who I am because my brain is broken.

If the mind was a separate entity, even if my physical brain was messed up, I could still have a normal emotional life and my responses to situations would be shaped truly by my will and not by misfiring synapses or funky chemistry. Instead, my personality disorder has shaped all of my major decisions and will probably continue to do so into the future.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Mind/Body Duality

I had to say B...

Because, while I think that mind exists in a separate state than the body, it doesn't exist without it. There is no such thing as a disembodied mind...

Probably true. I suppose that a person might use something like ghosts, or "entities" to argue for the existence of disembodied minds, but, for me at least, the jury is still out on those...

However, choice "C" would also fit the "there are no disembodied minds" criteria.

Perzephone's idea - I'm going to state it as a thesis to make sure I understand it (Perzephone, please correct me if I seem to be misstating your idea) - is:

States of mind are contingent on the physical state and functioning of the body. Therefore, the mind is a creation of the body.

There's a heck of a lot of truth in this - it's impossible to deny this. However, it does not prove that the mind is entirely a function of the body, it proves only that the mind is highly influenced by the state and condition of the body. This still allows option "C" to be a possibility.

I've been trying to figure out some way of telling whether "B" or "C" is the more correct statement. I think that if there is one thing about mind which is not dependent on or influenced by bodily states, that would lend support to option "C" (that "Mind and body are two different things, but so tightly linked that they can't be separated").

The thing that I've come up with is the sense of "I am" which seems to persist in us, no matter what our biochemical physical state is. Even in certain types of ecstatic states that sense is still there, although it stops being attached to the body.

There are other types of ecstatic states, though, in which the sense of "I am" seems to either go away or be drastically reduced. These types of state occur most often when one's identity is submerged into a group identity. In it's negative form this is "mob mentality," but it has positive forms as well - such as group rituals or celebrations.

But it may be that, in those states, the sense of "I am" merges into a group form, where the group becomes, at least for a time, a conglomerate mind.

[thalassa]

Re: Mind/Body Duality

I think though that the mind still arises from the body...whether or not or how the end products may be connected. The mind originates as a product of a physical form...whatever a *thought* actually *is*, it comes from the biochemical electrical workings of a *thing*...while C might also be able to be true...sort of, you can have a body without a mind (just look at a paramecium).

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Mind/Body Duality

Yes - I agree that the mind originates as a product of the physical form, but what I'm wondering is this - does it or can it become something else?

If thoughts begin as a biochemical process, is that also what they are in the end?

What, exactly, is a thought? It's not a material thing, although it originates as one. When we recognize a thought as a thought, is it still the chemical process which gave rise to it...?

LOL - I'm hip deep in metaphysics, and sinking fast.

[Ophidia]

Re: Mind/Body Duality

I think what really drove it home to me was discovering that we do have a physical third eye. When stimulated, the pineal gland does all kinds of interesting things - like releasing DMT right before you die. DMT is a true entheogen - it makes you see God. It can also make you see a bunch of other stuff - dead relatives, halls of light, stars winking out, multi-colored serpents, strange and fantastic beings and creatures. Your brain also floods your body with GABA at death, suppressing your nerve responses & flooding you with a sense of euphoria and relaxation. Oxytocin bonds mothers to infants and people to one another. Dopamine makes you feel pleasure, serotonin lets you know who's boss in social situations, endorphins give the living person euphoria and stamina.

I'm a relatively spiritual person, and the religious part of me knows the Universe is more than what we are... but the logical me accepts that what we are is largely biological and mundane. I'm ok with the contradictions - I may see Gods because They're real, or I may see Gods because my pineal gland doped me with a little DMT - either way, I'm still seeing Gods.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Mind/Body Duality

Yeah, that's the materialist side of the equation. The other side goes like this:

If I taste a slice of nice pizza, everything, from why I experience "taste" to why I enjoy that taste can be explained through biological processes and evolutionary theory. But my pleasure at experiencing that taste is still a real experience of pleasure.

My wife was bound to our daughters at birth, due to... uhm... You said "oxytocin," which I assume is right. But the love she felt, and still feels for them is still real.

Because we live in a physical universe, everything we experience has a physical basis. However, despite being chemically based, it is still real - the only reality we can actually experience as physical beings.

If I kick my dog, I know why it will hurt. But I never kick my dog because the pain, anguish and confusion she would experience if I were to ever treat her like that would be real pain, anguish and confusion, and I'd prefer to spare her that. She is a thing in and of it's self, and this is the only way she can experience her own self in a physical universe.

[Ophidia]

Re: Mind/Body Duality

Studies have shown that if oxytocin production is blocked, animals will reject their young - while virgin and male animals injected with the stuff suddenly go baby-crazy. Species that are known to form long-lasting monogamous matings, like voles and some antelope, no longer form long-lasting pairings when deprived of oxytocin.

The scientific community has only recently begun to play with oxytocin (namely as a potential weapon in the 'war on terror' - being sprayed w/oxytocin makes you trust people more readily, and accept strangers more openly, but also in ADHD & Autism-spectrum disorders, which have notable social aspects that oxytocin may relieve), so there isn't a lot of research out there on oxytocin deficiency in humans.

So, is it really 'love', or is it chemistry?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Mind/Body Duality

LOL - it's chemicals in my body, but love to my self.

[LiadanWillows]

Re: Mind/Body Duality

I voted that the Mind is independent of the Body. I truly believe this. The Mind is a negative thing that only dwells on past and future and rarely deals in the present. The Body only cares about the now. The Mind when not being used for a specific task often does some destructive things, negative thoughts mostly, unless you can train yourself otherwise. The Body when not performing a task is at rest preparing for the next task. If only I could train my Mind to be more like the Body...

btw I base this off of "The Power of Now" - Eckhart Tolle.. this book really spoke to me.

[lisamarie]

Re: Mind/Body Duality

I believe that your learned mind and your born mind are both of your human body while we are in this existance... You must honor both to empower either.. Your soul is ever changing and always learning.. I believe that our visits here in the here and now are our own souls lessons.. a school if you may. The energy of the universe pushes us forward and we have the choice to embrace it or fight against it... "Each of us own a soul, but borrow the body in which we stroll" ONE BIG SUPERNOVA!!!!!!!!!!

[anunitu]

Re: Mind/Body Duality

As I see it the body is a machine,but as with a robot it needs a system to make it move and react. Our mind is the CPU with what I would concider the operating system. I think the OS is what we define as the soul. It can exist outside the body,but the body cannot continue without the OS(soul)

[HENKIVASARA]

Re: Mind/Body Duality

When I was very young, I had to have an operation on a part of my lower body. Instead of giving me a local anestetic, the doctor gave me a "nerve blocker" injection at the base of my spine. It made the entire part of my body blow my waist totally numb. After the drug took effect, I no longer recognized my lower body as mine. I felt no connection to it. This was a psychological reaction to being "disconnected" from a major part of my body. It was then that I got the idea that the body is only an elaborate sense organ. Just an extension of the brain. I believe that mind and body work together as a team. Without body, the mind is left to float in dark space. Wether a conscience life exists outside of the body is annother question. I hope I get annother body after this one is expired and worn out. That would be so nice.

[habbalah]

Re: Mind/Body Duality

I've said for a long time that my body is just here to carry my brain around and keep it wet. I would be me in any other body; my mind is the most important part.