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    #16
    Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

    Originally posted by thalassa View Post
    The idea that men and women are equal in ability. Men (as a group, on average) and women (as a group, on average) have inherent skill sets due to inherent biological differences and differences in socialization and upbringing. Men (as a group, on average) and women (as a group, on average) are certainly equal in worth, and an individual random man and an individual random woman might be equal in ability, but that isn't the same as saying that women and men are equal in ability.
    To play devil's advocate: Doesn't that amount to ye ol' "Separate but Equal" fallacy?

    There is an issue, relating to the socialization of women, where women are encouraged to seek lower paying careers than men. Nursing, as opposed to being a doctor. In teaching, women tend to take the younger children, with men gradually ramping up their participation as the children get older and more intellectually capable. University professorships too have a similar problem - there are plenty more men than women, especially among hard sciences and mathematics; I've seen this even present at traditionally Women's only schools that have gone Co-Ed decades ago.

    The issue here is - how much does the dichotomy of masculine and feminine archetypes in Wicca simply feed that same issue of unequal Socialization? Intellectually, people understand that no person is going to be purely one or the other among these archetypes; however, how much do we watch people use these to reinforce their own gender identity? Do male neopagans try to be manly, even to the point of being curmudgeouns? Do women neopagans try to be feminine, even to the point of abandoning the "masculine" elements they need to survive on their own in favor of more "feminine" attributes and practices?

    I've watched people, and I've seen where plenty of young, independent, talented Pagan women forsake their gifts for more traditional roles - like motherhood - when they swore they would be terrible and miserable in these roles. You know what? Most of them, that I've had the displeasure of interacting with IRL were right. Its sad, but I do have to wonder how much the Gardinerian ideals of these archetypes played a role in their descent into misery. Meanwhile, I've seen guys who had never held a gun in their lives get into hunting accidents when they suddenly took interest in "masculine" pursuits.

    Meanwhile, I've seen the appearance of a here-to-fore non-existent influence - the chauvenistic Wiccan. You know, that guy who thinks women belong in the kitchen and raising the kids, instead of having the opportunity to build her life as she sees fit - and he uses these Masculine and Feminine archetypes of his religion to justify it.

    Is this merely individuals caving in to weaknesses in their own mental faculties? Yes, though the scale recalls how human reasoning is prone to such glitches when they're surrounded by a community that believes a certain way. Meanwhile, how many Pagans left Christianity over these same oppressive gender roles?

    And rather than address it, as a community, the Pagans don't seem to acknowledge even the possibility that their beliefs contribute towards this... great.
    "A true initiation never ends"-Robert Anton Wilson
    http://www.hermetic.com/crowley
    "Reality has become a commodity"-Stephen Colbert 1/29/07
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    "Sometimes, when you can't breathe, there are people there to breathe for you" - Aesop Rock
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      #17
      Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

      I agree with everyone that she is generalizing the term Wicca too much (and roping it in with New Age), but you know, that's what it looks like to an outsider. It's 2012 and people are still unsure what Wicca and Paganism are.

      The article says: "As advocates of science-based thinking, we need to promote the fact that women are just as logical and capable thinkers and doers as men..."

      When they say "science-based thinking", it makes me feel like this could apply to any religion, but she is targeting Wicca because it is known for it's Goddess-worship. And I think that's about as far as the average person's knowledge of Wicca goes~ that Wiccans are all women/witches that worship a Goddess (add any other misconceptions here). I mean, she likens intuition to magical powers. Everyone has intuition! Even my cats! And she's completely leaving out the fact that there are male Wiccans as well.

      It feels like the writer had an idea, then wrote a quick article without doing any research. It feels like I'm reading a first draft or an idea that someone jot down to complete later, but never did.

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        #18
        Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

        Originally posted by AzazelEblis View Post
        The issue here is - how much does the dichotomy of masculine and feminine archetypes in Wicca simply feed that same issue of unequal Socialization? Intellectually, people understand that no person is going to be purely one or the other among these archetypes; however, how much do we watch people use these to reinforce their own gender identity? Do male neopagans try to be manly, even to the point of being curmudgeouns? Do women neopagans try to be feminine, even to the point of abandoning the "masculine" elements they need to survive on their own in favor of more "feminine" attributes and practices?
        This is one of the main reasons I left Wicca many years ago, and why I don't put any real emphasis or even usually include the whole feminine/masculine thing into my path. Very often it just seems to become more of the same old sexist stuff. It's not just in Wicca, but Wicca and Wiccan influenced paths seem to include a good bit of it. A book I was reading recently claimed women's mysteries were things like child-birth and menstruation, in other words, their bodies and their functions. Men's mysteries? Their minds. "No woman can fully understand the male passion for knowledge or craft as this is part of the masculine mind and difficult for a woman to understand." Yep, really. A lot of people just accept that feminine traits are A, B, and C - while masculine traits are D, E, and F... and while, as you point out, many often are happy to say 'oh, well, everyone has masculine traits and feminine traits' few seem to actually want to look at why these traits are broken up into the groups that they are. What that actually means and is reinforcing.

        So I can actually see, somewhat, where the author is coming from with a few of their points. That said, I think they miss the mark on several of their other points, and as was mentioned, tended to lump a lot of things together that maybe should not be... Certainly there are some issues within Wicca, and paganism as a whole, but I think it would be better to actually address each issue, rather than tossing the whole movement aside as bad.
        Hearth and Hedge

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          #19
          Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

          Originally posted by AzazelEblis View Post
          To play devil's advocate: Doesn't that amount to ye ol' "Separate but Equal" fallacy?
          Having been in the military...

          No.

          There are some things that more males have the capacity do better than a handful of females--like carry heavy shit for long distances, or maneuver really heavy equipment to do certain sorts of jobs.

          I was the first (and only) female on my ship to do a part of anchoring detail known as "pin and bail"--its a matter of setting the stopper for a 20,000 lb anchor, the tackle for which weighs a couple of hundred pounds and has to be maneuvered just so to be set up properly. Its a three man job. And I do mean three man....a good number of guys can't do the job, and only of handful of females can. Men also make better ship-board fire party members--part of the job requires the ability to haul gear and people in and out of engine spaces, up and down ladders and in and out of trunks on a ship...sure there are some females that can do the job (and some men that can't), but for the most part...18 out of the 20 people on the at-sea fire party are male...because only 2 females from all of R division could haul the weight necessary to do the job.

          Don't get me wrong, there ARE women that can do the job just as well as a man...in which case, if they meet the SAME criteria as a man to do the job, they should be allowed to. But that means that women wanting to be SEALS or SWCC (which they aren't allowed to do because of the direct combat rule) have to meet the same scores as men do...cutting the requirements (men and womens physical requirements are different in the military) endangers lives. Which is why there are far fewer women divers in the navy than men.

          In the same vein...how many women have played in the PGA and how did they do? Who's faster, men or women (at the top of their profession with comparable training) running the 100 m? Then again...in extreme cold, women--with more subcutaneous fat compared to the same sized male--have less of a tendency to develop hypothermia...when it comes to long distance, cold water conditions...the biological differences of men and women even out a bit and a woman actually holds the record for swimming in the Antarctic Ocean.

          I'm not ashamed to say that my hubby could beat me in an arm wrestling contest. I'm also not ashamed to say that there are a number of guys I could beat in an arm wrestling contest....but far more that would beat me. I'm also sure that there are females that would beat my hubby in an arm wrestling contest, but not nearly as many as he could beat. Because, at the end of the day, all else being equal (training, etc) men are still physically stronger than women, men are still faster than women (larger lung capacity), etc. That doesn't make women weak, it just makes them different. Ask a commanding officer of an air wing or an aircraft carrier if they'd rather have more women fighter pilots or not, and why.

          Separate but equal is a fallacy because blacks and whites as groups are equal--their inherent biological capabilities are equal when measured as a group, men AND women, etc.

          Biological traits are something entirely different than socialization factors...and biological traits have ranges on them (but at the end of the day, we are still largely a sexually dimorphic species). Both the hubby and I could rail at the fact that (despite our encouragement in other things) our daughter still prefers dolls to trucks...but the reality is until society changes (which is slow), those pressures will continue to shape children in ways that parents can't easily combat even when they are something the parents are conscious of. And...as far as socialization goes, what is "male" or "female" is always changing. Pink (as a derivative of red) was considered a boy color and blue a girl color at one point in time, little boys wore dresses just like little girls until the early 20th century, and men of the 19th century knew how to knit and sew.
          Last edited by thalassa; 01 Dec 2012, 14:39.
          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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            #20
            Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

            Geez, Thal, and my thoughts were more in league with men giving birth and women writing their names in the snow, standing up, urinating. They're just different.




            "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

            "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

            "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

            "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


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              #21
              Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

              Originally posted by ChainLightning View Post
              Geez, Thal, and my thoughts were more in league with men giving birth and women writing their names in the snow, standing up, urinating. They're just different.
              lol..I thought that should have been obvious!
              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                #22
                Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

                Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                lol..I thought that should have been obvious!

                Yeah, I totally missed the queue on "different but equal". In fact, I missed the whole conga line, there.

                I mean, I completely understand the misinterpretation, on the part of the author (I feel she's a complete idiot!). Someone with a few minutes to waste but not enough time to research hardly ANY of what she wants to spew. She simply has no clue.

                It's in that... field of nonsense that I have trouble grasping any serious discussion about what she was trying to impart. Forgive me.




                "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

                "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

                "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

                "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

                  Originally posted by ChainLightning View Post
                  Geez, Thal, and my thoughts were more in league with men giving birth and women writing their names in the snow, standing up, urinating. They're just different.
                  If I was careful and was not really all that cold out, I could likely manage it...
                  http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

                  But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
                  ~Jim Butcher

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