Cultural Appropriation

[thalassa]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Hmmm...I've heard the term "welshing", but only in the context of "welshing on a bet/deal" (someone going back on ttheir word, not someone stealing), I never would have thought about the fact that it originated from being Welsh. Same for being gypped (which I've always seen spelled "jipped", and not even seen spelled that often in the first place), and never heard it used as meaning having something stolen, but instead being short-changed....and I never would have associated it with someone being a Gypsy (if someone told me it was a racist thing, I probably would have associated it with some derivative of the term "Jap" or something, from WWII). And...the only person I've ever heard use the word "Jew" like that is a Jewish friend of mine.

[Denarius]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Gypping is the more common, and equally offensive term. Jewing is also in use, though less common than either.

Indian giver is a similar term as well, and also hilariously ironic given the histories involved.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I don't generally hear 'welshing', I came across 'welching' in a fanfic once but neither term is extraordinarily commonplace.

That said, the US has a host of regional differences in a number of areas. It's quite possible that such terms are commonplace in another area of the country.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

As for the term welshing, it probably derives from the old 'Taffy was a welshman, taffy was a thief,' nursery rhyme (how could they teach that to children???)

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I've never heard that, or the term, so I don't know that it's going around a lot anymore.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Well, it was a nursery rhyme that was still quoted whenever we went outside Wales as kids... and presumably got carried to the US in some shape or form, because Clinton definitely pre-dates Torchwood.

James - it's strange what you say about the Irish equating the Welsh with the British because we had a huge Irish population here in Wales... and the nuns always said they were taught to be kind to the Welsh because 'they were good to us in the famine.' There's a statue to the Irish famine victims in Cardiff, believe it or not.

And of course the funny thing in Wales is that by and large they really dislike the English. Never ever walk down St Mary Street when Wales are playing England at home wearing a white rugby shirt. If Ireland are playing though, you'll be most welcome in a green jersey!

[Denarius]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I don't think most americans know (or care) enough about Wales to be actually prejudicial toward the welsh. I wouldn't be surprised if most of what we know about Wales comes from Torchwood.

[JamesByrne]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

The video reminds me of that episode of Father Ted...

As for the term welshing, it probably derives from the old 'Taffy was a welshman, taffy was a thief,' nursery rhyme (how could they teach that to children???)

I agree that people searching for culture deserve to the find the real thing, but I still suspect that many are enticed by the cheesy bits at first.... we may never know.
.

Hah yeah Eoin McLove. I think that Father Ted charactor might have been based on Daniel O Donnell

I never heard the taffy nursery rhyme anyway so hopefully that old prejudice is dead everywhere except the US. Though that said prejudice against wales was still a part of my education. In terms of nationalist politics Wales being British and Celtic at the same time is a contradiction so Welsh history and culture was just ignored after Wales = British = bad was given to us.

Lots of my education was hard to reconcile with my experiences thank feck Ive family all over the place that I couldnt hate like I was taught to. All I was told about Wales was in 1798 Welsh soldiers killed the famous leaders of the rebellion and then boiled them down to grease their boots before being righteously killed... imagine teaching kids that. Filling minds with hate and testing them on it... feck sake. Though my cousins in Wales and England had a similar story when it came to their education about ireland. Its a feckin miracle we arent all killing each other now and we get the politicians smiling at us claiming they fixed it all when they were the cause of it.

Ah feck em all anyway.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I hadnt thought of that Tylluan I wonder how that term came into the language.

Youre lucky not to have them cheesy types. Look at this guy, Daniel O Donnell, he actually has tea with grannies and sings songs about his mammy. He sings songs that no one here sings just to please foreigners... Make. It. Stop.

TBH I dont think they serve as a gateway I think if people are honest in their search for culture they deserve to find the real thing as unpallatable as it may be rather then the lot who insinuate themselves in between peoples expectations and the reality so they can make a few pounds.

The video reminds me of that episode of Father Ted...

As for the term welshing, it probably derives from the old 'Taffy was a welshman, taffy was a thief,' nursery rhyme (how could they teach that to children???)

I agree that people searching for culture deserve to the find the real thing, but I still suspect that many are enticed by the cheesy bits at first.... we may never know.

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There is nothing wrong with being proud of belonging to a culture. I am proud to be Geordie and hate that the dialect has been watered down with slang: 'don't' is 'diven't' in Geordie, not 'deen't' as the young'un's are saying. The dialect is almost dead now and that's sad. So in this respect, I wish to honour and uphold my heritage. However, I have a contact in Germany, who speaks English with a Geordie accent, and likes to practise with me. This is no way offensive, and in fact, I am flattered, that someone outside of the north east, cares about the dialect, and not just the accent, as famed by Big Brother and Ant and Dec.

The danger, is when you get possesive about your heritage. What? You were BORN and I should be impressed? You managed to squeeze your way out of your mother's lady hole, and that is the one acheivement, in your entire life, that you have to hold onto and be proud about. Anyone who thinks that where they were born is an accomplishment, really needs to rethink their entire life, because if that's the best they have managed... Oh dear.

I love the Georgie accent... one of my grandfathers came to Wales from Gateshead. I think my own pretty scatty background has taught me that culture is very fluid. Despite my name, I'm a genuine Heinz 57 varieties....

[JamesByrne]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Thanks for giving the question a go, James! Do you think though, that maybe those cheesy things can be justified if they act as a gateway for someone starting serious consideration?

I think the nearest thing we had in Wales was probably the male voice choirs, yet nobody (as far as I know) thought they were cheesy. People got really mad when Clinton mentioned 'Welshing' on a deal though....

I hadnt thought of that Tylluan I wonder how that term came into the language.

Youre lucky not to have them cheesy types. Look at this guy, Daniel O Donnell, he actually has tea with grannies and sings songs about his mammy. He sings songs that no one here sings just to please foreigners... Make. It. Stop.

TBH I dont think they serve as a gateway I think if people are honest in their search for culture they deserve to find the real thing as unpallatable as it may be rather then the lot who insinuate themselves in between peoples expectations and the reality so they can make a few pounds.

[Jembru]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

There is nothing wrong with being proud of belonging to a culture. I am proud to be Geordie and hate that the dialect has been watered down with slang: 'don't' is 'diven't' in Geordie, not 'deen't' as the young'un's are saying. The dialect is almost dead now and that's sad. So in this respect, I wish to honour and uphold my heritage. However, I have a contact in Germany, who speaks English with a Geordie accent, and likes to practise with me. This is no way offensive, and in fact, I am flattered, that someone outside of the north east, cares about the dialect, and not just the accent, as famed by Big Brother and Ant and Dec.

The danger, is when you get possesive about your heritage. What? You were BORN and I should be impressed? You managed to squeeze your way out of your mother's lady hole, and that is the one acheivement, in your entire life, that you have to hold onto and be proud about. Anyone who thinks that where they were born is an accomplishment, really needs to rethink their entire life, because if that's the best they have managed... Oh dear.

[thalassa]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Cultures have been splitting, merging, evolving, stealing ideas, borrowing them, giving them away, forcing them on others, and throwing idea away since the dawn of human kind.

IMO, it comes down to what kind of person you are...if you are honestly well-meaning and trying to be respectful, most people aren't going to be jerks.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Cultures change and evolve, and get influenced by the people who move there from outside it, and those people change by being in their new environment. I've changed while I've lived here in Berlin, and I've seen Berlin change as more foreigners come into the city.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I dunno about Wales but a good example in Ireland are those cheesy taloora loora singers... or stuff like riverdance. As irish as leprechauns knickers are green and as utterly nasty too! :P

Thanks for giving the question a go, James! Do you think though, that maybe those cheesy things can be justified if they act as a gateway for someone starting serious consideration?

I think the nearest thing we had in Wales was probably the male voice choirs, yet nobody (as far as I know) thought they were cheesy. People got really mad when Clinton mentioned 'Welshing' on a deal though....

[JamesByrne]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

And something I've never quite got to grips with is whether a culture belongs to us, or we belong to it. I think maybe it needs consideration.

IMO Tylluan Its like everything its rights and obligations. Like a family we get some great times with family and they are there when we NEED someone but its also down to us to make sure we maintain the family relationship so its there for the kids because when we fall out with someone it impacts the whole lot of us... iLike that imo culture belongs to every member of the culture so while we have a right to call it ours and reap the rewards we are also obligated to it, to ensure that its better then we found it for the next generation. Its a cycle of life thing more then an I paid for it its mine. I think lots of people end up with family members who go astray and have to be cut out of the family for atleast a while to save from hurt. Like that with culture if youre not giving back and youre just exploiting it for gain you become this distastefull thing in everyones eyes and no matter how loudly you shout about your culture everyone knows youre not what you say you are...

I dunno about Wales but a good example in Ireland are those cheesy taloora loora singers... or stuff like riverdance. As irish as leprechauns knickers are green and as utterly nasty too! :P

[Witcher]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

There is a scale, in my opinion, of cultural appropriation. A white person in upstate New York doing puja to Kali after visiting temples, speaking with Hindus, reading a lot, respecting the culture, etc. is not the same as some white person in North Carolina claiming to be a Cherokee "shaman" (not even a word they would use) after having bought a smudge stick and some eagle feathers with no knowledge or connection whatsoever to that community. Respect and knowledge make the difference. If those things are there then I see no problem with it. Cultures have stolen, borrowed, remade and reworked since the dawn of history. Most modern intelligent pagans are no more "stealing" cultures than the Romans stole Cybele or Mithras.